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 Post subject: Couple Questions???
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Ok, I know what I'm trying to ask but having a hard time putting it in words. Just trying to understand how wd's and physical dependency work(s)......

Normally MY physical withdrawals from oc's lasts like 7 days. (I know everyone is different) If I stopped oc's and hopped on suboxones(after mild wds of course) for 7 days and then stopped THOSE(suboxones).........would I withdrawal from:

A) The Suboxone? (Or is ten days not enough to get physically dependent on Sub?)

B) Just opiates in general? (Because I just went from one opiate to another.....)

C) No physical withdrawals (because Im passed the wd period for oxys and 10days is too short to get dependent on Suboxone)

I guess what I'm trying to ask is do the opiate receptors get physically dependent on a SPECIFIC opiate or just any?

Reason I ask is because I've done this with methadone. (Did like 3days of Methadone to get thru oxy wd's and felt physically ok when I was thru) After being on alot of oxycodone - like 150-250mgs/day.

I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here and am thinking someone will have the answer or explanation.

Thanks, Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:52 pm 
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Hi msummers -

I am not a doctor -- maybe the suboxdoc will find this post and answer. I have some experience with what you are asking - and can offer my opinion. Still it's not a doctor's advice, just my opinion.

A) First and foremost - your opiate receptors (all through your body - intestines, brain, etc.) have been blocked by a full agonist opiate - oxycodone, or methadone. Both medications are basically the same in that they don't have any ceiling effect - and have about the same affinity (agression to attach there).

B) Suboxone has a stronger attachment (aggression) for the receptor than standard opiates - and Sub is not a full-agonist only a partial agonist and Sub - has a ceiling effect so after so many 'milligrams' you get no further effect.

C) Withdrawal has different phases. You mention the 7 days. Methadone - and Suboxone both have much longer half lives, so if you cold-turkey off those - you will likely have longer short term wd's. After the drugs have lost their 'half lives' in your blood (your body has filtered them out) - then you have a different set of wd's - I think they use the term PAWS (you can google it if you want).

So, specifically to your question. Your opiate receptors are physically dependent on whatever drug you have in your system (opiate, or partial opiate). When the drug leaves you system over time, they return to a more normal state - but while technically you don't have any 'drug' in your system - there are lots of other area's that your body adjusted to mentally, chemically, and emotionally. Your motivation for instance, often is way down - even after the drug is out of your system. Your sleep center of your brain is affected chemically by no more opiates - so typically you don't sleep very well.

Opiates affect the Central Nervous System (CNS). You can read all about it at various sites. If it were only so easy as to jump off the opiates - press reset on the CNS reactions to the dependency - then many of us would be free from any opiate at all. I have read that it takes months to years for the CNS to recover from long term use of opiates (thus dependency).

Don't know if any of this helps or not. At least you have some information to research if that's your thing. Lots of work has been done on human CNS, and how it recovers/reacts, etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Thanks for the reply Lathedude, that helps a little - I'm still a bit confused. I guess I will have to keep researching.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:21 am 
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hey msummers -

I reread the question you asked about opiate receptors accepting various opiates the same or differently.

I think, maybe, you could ask the question differently so I understand better?

The reason suboxone is a tool in use today, is that opiate dependency is an illness. As purely a medicine, suboxone has a lower dependency level, and is classified as such by a schedule. It's like comparing codeine to oxycontin. Both are possible for addiction/dependency - but oxycontin is stronger and more addictive.

I think I am a little confused with your question, as there are 2 ways to look at it.

1- purely a medicine that a chemist/pharmacist is looking at.
or
2- How can I use suboxone do ease w'd's and use it as a person with an illness.

Good luck in your research. I personally believe that for #2 - to be a user of any opiate - then to take it away - will have affects on you physically, emotionally, and spiritually. If a person can taper slowly and let their body adjust as you go - the w'd's and agony is less.

In my case, I used to think that if I just got it over with, paid the price, then the receptors would be clean and I'd be all better.

In my case, it is like a scrape on the skin. Picking off the scab is like w'd's (painful) - and the skin underneath is tender and very sensitive for quite a while. If I leave the scab alone for a long time, and live through the itch's and it bugging me a little - by the time is 'sluffs' off normally - the skin underneath is not nearly as sensitive.

Best of luck to you!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:28 am 
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Hey Mike -

Your body becomes addicted to/dependent on opiates in general, not just the specific drug you've been using. That is why methadone can stop heroin addicts from going into withdrawal or why buprenorphine stops withdrawals in an oxy addict. This same phenomenon applies to tolerance as well - which is why a heroin addict can function normally on a dose of methadone that would kill an opiate-naieve person.

When I was abusing dilaudid, I sometimes used methadone for a few days to taper myself down and it seemed to prevent the worst of the acute withdrawals, so I kind of know what you're getting at...but I was never able to abstain for very long once all the drugs were out of my system.

It's possible that you could do a 10-day taper with Suboxone and experience minimal withdrawal symptoms. I think it probably depends on what you've been using, for how long and your personal metabolism and tendency to experience opiate withdrawal. Everyone is different. My husband can use opiates pretty heavily and never gets sick...I"m not so lucky.

The main point is that if you are physically dependent on opiates/addicted to opiates then certain changes have occured in your brain and it will take time for your brain to change back. You might be at a stage in your addiction where you can still have periods of controlled use or times when you are able to abstain or not abuse your drug of choice for a while. I was like that for years...until suddenly I wasn't anymore. Just becasue you're able to use a lot of opiates now and then detox and feel ok doesn't mean that it will always be that way. Please be careful and take care of yourself.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


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