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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:12 pm 
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I used to post here but went down on my Sub pretty fast and, unfortunately, I kind of lost my mind. There really is no other way to put it. I gave up on ever tackling getting off Sub, as I nearly lost everything. I left my marriage and just started running around like a nut case, totally impulsive and crazy. I didn't do drugs, thank goodness. However, I lost the ability to see objectively how irrational I was being and when you lose that, you have nothing.

Anyway, I'm back and have switched to the films and also still use the extra tablets I have from 5 years on Sub. Right now, I'm at 5 mg. I frequent another board where a dedicated guy has guided many, many people off Sub using a 25% reduction every 4 days, even for people like me on Sub for a long time. You cannot argue with his success rate.

Except that I just cannot do that. I know I will be putting my mental state in serious jeopardy. I've watched Dr. Junig's youtube videos about tapering using the 10% method and have read his e-book. I love him! I've made sure my Sub doctors go and check his info out so they can get more educated themselves. My Sub docs have appreciated what they've learned from him, as there's a sorry lack of education out there for docs allowed to prescribe this strong medication.

I know he advocates the 10% reduction about every week. This seems like a nice way...slow and steady winning the race.

I'm just so confused. According to the fast tapering theory, the Sub's long half-life means it builds up in your system and you aren't really ever at the dose you think you are at. This is so confusing to me! After all these years, my head's still spinning with all the advice on how or even if to get of Sub. I want to know what everyone here thinks. If you have weaned down on Sub, did you do it gradually or rapidly and why? What do you think the best way is and why? Do you think slowly tapering may decrease the chance and duration of PAWS? I appreciate all input!!!!! I want to know mainly how to keep my brain okay. I'm not nearly as afraid of the physical stuff.

Thank you all!
laddertipper


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:37 pm 
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I haven't tapered down or off, but I'd like to respond with what I know. A 25% drop every few days is HUGE! If I had to do a taper plan I wouldn't do it that way. It seems to me that you would be in constant discomfort. I would use the 10% plan and reduce every couple of weeks if not even more. The idea is to go slow enough so that you feel as little discomfort as possible. When a person drops their dosage, considering the long half life and the stacking effect, they don't feel the drop for 3 or more days. If that person then drops their dosage every 4 days, doesn't it stand to reason that you'd be in a constant state of feeling that drop? Whereas if you drop 10% it's small enough that there will hopefully be little discomfort and the person then gives themselves up to two weeks (or even more) to adjust to the change.

You asked: "Do you think slowly tapering may decrease the chance and duration of PAWS?" Yes, the theory is that the slower and lower the taper is the less both the acute and post-acute withdrawals will be.

If I recall correctly, most of the people on this site that have successfully tapered off did it very slowly, some with little to no discomfort at all. I'm not saying no one here has done a rapid taper, because some have. Unfortunately a large percentage of the people from this forum who did rapid tapers just never returned to tell us how they are doing. Some members are currently in the middle of tapers.

This is just what I've learned about tapering over the last 18+ months. I hope this helps. Good luck.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:26 pm 
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I tend to agree with what you are saying. I'm amazed at the success rate that this gentleman has had. I know when I taper, the w/d do not show up until Day 3 and then Day 5 seems to be the second worst day. A week out from a taper, I'm pretty much fine, and that's dosing once a day. Then, I really love having a week to just feel normal. If I decreased every 4 days I would absolutely be in pretty bad shape in a short period of time!

The idea of a quick fix, e.g. rapid taper, is always enticing in some respects. You know, get it over and done with now, now, now! However, the PAWS thing is the biggest drawback to me. If I can go more slowly and avoid nasty long-term acute withdrawals, then I cannot see why that isn't smart. The main reason I've failed before at tapering is that I went too fast and freaked myself out. I wasn't patient enough to take it slow and steady. I hope I have learned by now that slow and steady really does win the race.

I'm glad to be back to this board. I've missed it.

laddertipper


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:48 pm 
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LadderTipper,

You wouldn't be talking about Robert325 would you? He does seem to have great success, but his taper plan is way too rapid for my taste, ESPECIALLY for a long term user. I believe he advocates a 6-8 week taper, longer if needed. That's just too fast for someone who has been on subs long term.

I was on subs for 3 years. First 2 years at 16 mg/day. Next 6 months at 8mg, next 2 months at 4 to 6 mg then with three weeks to go I tapered down to 2 mg and got my ass handed to me by the withdrawals.

Knowing what I know now (5.5 months clean), I would take the slowest taper possible and get comfortable after every drop in dose, like Hatmaker said. Next, I would get to as low a dose as humanly possible, .3mg, maybe .2mg or less if you can hold out that long before I even considered quitting completely.

I'm curious on why you want to stop taking subs? It didn't seem to work out too well the first time, maybe you're not ready. I'm not trying to be mean at all, I just don't want you to suffer through withdrawal then jump from one addiction to another (sex?).
I know that had I not worked intensely with an addiction counselor to figure out why I was so fucked up in the head that I would have bounced from one addiction to another or just relapsed completely back to subs within no time at all.

Again, I am absolutely not trying to make you mad, I just want to make sure you are ready and if I am wrong about your wanting to stop then just tell me to shut the hell up.


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 Post subject: Tapering !!!!!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Hay ladder, heres what you do.. 1st of all you must be completly stable on your 5mg dosage, dont even think about tapering until your stable, you must always wait to stabilize before going on, for like a month.. I would work at .5mg reductions until you get to 2mgs... For instance, stay at 4.5 mg for a month after you stabilize, Dont get in a big ass hurry, why live life feeling tired and shitty, Your goal right now is to only get 2mg. Going from 5mg to 2mg is easily done if you go slow and are serious about it !!! My goal was 2mg, then it was 1mg.. also, dont make this the most important thing in your life, mike


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Hey ladder :)

I am tapering using the liquid method even slower than 10%. I cut 7-5% every week and the last 2 cuts I had to wait 10 days each before cutting again because I was so affected mentally.

I get very paranoid and depressed the first 1-4 days. The cuts hit me much faster than others I've seen on this board. I think in my experience slow and steady will win this race.

My cns took a major hit over three years ago when I went CT off klonopin. I was in PAWS w/ that mistake very acutely for 9 months w/ intermittent symptoms for almost 2 and a half years. I think my cns is STILL messed up because every time I cut my sub I get some waves of that old klonopin PAWS.

If you had a difficult experience last time, you may want to consider really taking your time now. Your health is nothing to compromise because you're in a hurry.

I also found that exercise almost every day (especially days 1-4 post cut) has helped me incrediblyin addition to a relatively clean diet of veggies, fruit and proteins w/ occasional low GI grains.

Good luck :)

Samantha


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:12 pm 
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Smat,

Wow, have you ever been through the ringer. What a nightmare the benzo detox is. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy...well maybe...just kidding. Good for you to hang in there. You have my respect.

I can identify with what you said. I tried cutting back severely on my smoking last weekend and I could have sworn I was going into full blown opiate wd...I was not impressed. I decided to try a taper plan with my smokes and so far so good. I am in no hurry, I just want to make steady progress...even if I only cut 1 or 2 smokes a week I'll be happy.

Keep us posted on your progress.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:23 am 
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Okay, thank you guys so much for that reality check. I needed it.

Romeo, you guessed it. I am talking about Robert_325. I'm so amazed at how people can follow his plan and I have to say I feel, well, ashamed to a degree because I know that I cannot go down that fast.

Going down on Sub hasn't worked for me because I've always gone blazing down too fast. Some of that was having doctors who truly didn't understand that the biggest part of the battle starts at 2 mg....that's not when the battle is over! I got a complex early on when I tried to go from 4 to 2 and got really sick and was told that 'wasn't possible', etc. I also didn't truly understand the 2 mg ceiling and how different it gets once you hit that level and why that happens. I just lost confidence.

I really am ready to go down on this. You know, I'm actually a recovering alcoholic. That's the worst part of this. I went on Subs because I was in a bad accident and the pain doc suggested oxy. Before taking that, I went to an 'addiction specialist' who weaned me onto Sub. The whole idea was that having an addictive tendency (toward alcohol) made it a bad idea for me to take opiates that would get me high. The Sub gave me pain relief eventually, but I still have some serious doubts about whether I truly needed it in the first place.

I love this forum. I think the people here are uniquely compassionate and reasonable. I will be waiting until I have at least 4 complete days of feeling zero w/d while dosing once a day before I even consider going down and I'll stick to the 10% rule (maybe rounded up or down a little as necessary) and I am going to start Zoloft. It's hard to go slowly, but I know if I stick with it, at some point I'll be impressed with where I am. And there really is no point in being sick all the time for a very long time. A person can only take so much. I do plan on getting to 1/16 of a 2-mg film, which is 125 micrograms, before I jump off. That's not too far from a therapeutic dose of Bup. And I think Dr. Junig says you need to get under 200 micrograms, right?

You guys are so great!
laddertipper


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:36 am 
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Based on how you describe things, I'd say they had no business putting you on suboxone to begin with. But I guess that's neither here nor there at this point.

Some people find that a flexible taper plan is the way to go. It's not a competition and as they say, slow and steady wins the race. Also, some people find they have difficulty with drops at those low dosages. When that happens it can help to make that dosage drop every other day for a while until you're comfortable. Just some thoughts for you.

Oh and it's generally accepted that the ceiling is at or around 4 mg, not 2 mg. Good luck! You can do this.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:36 am 
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Yeah, Robert325's plan works best for those who have been on sub for a very short time. Long term sub use generally will require a long term taper. Like you said, do a small taper...stabilize...get comfortable then taper again. The less of a hurry you're in the better it will go.

Don't be ashamed about not being able to taper quickly. Recovery is a uniquely individual process. I have never, ever heard of two people having the exact same recovery so don't base your recovery on someone elses...it doesn't work that way. It's OK to use someone elses taper/recovery as a general guideline, but that's about it.

I'm glad you didn't get mad at me, although I really thought you would because I was pushing pretty hard there. Glad you could see I was honestly trying to help.

That bites hard that your also a recovering alcoholic. My heart just broke when I read that, like you haven't been through enough shit already...I feel for you and we are all routing for you. Stay strong.


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 Post subject: Romeo and hatmaker
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Romeo, it takes a whole lot to make me mad, lol. And you weren't saying anything offensive. The way I see things, if you cannot answer questions that challenge the path you are on, then maybe you are in denial about being on the right path! I really had no business being put on Sub. Now that is a hard pill to swallow! But don't think I consider myself somehow better because of this. I am a complete, indisputable alcoholic and reached some sickening depths in that craziness. It just so happens that alcohol was what altered me in the way I liked. It could have been opiates....

My first Sub doc told me it was used for both opiate w/d and for pain. And as a 'pain' patient, I didn't even count towards the max patient limit. My first Sub doctor was a nutcase, to be honest. He had a terrible temper and no patience and he prescribed nothing but Sub in huge doses. I started at 2 mg and worked my way up to 32 mg. He'd been prescribing it in Europe and then came here to prescribe it as soon as it was available. He made it sound like the best thing since sliced bread. I learned so much from that experience: basically, I am ultimately responsible for myself and I should not have been so willing to start ingesting something I was totally uninformed about. Playing Devil's advocate though, being an alcoholic, who knows whether I would have gotten very addicted to pain meds? I could have, and that scared me. I don't fear going onto pain meds once I'm done with Sub because I'm dedicated to being sober. I love being sober! Quitting drinking opened up the world to me. I don't want to give my life to another drug. I take a non-narcotic headache med now that actually works. If I ever need surgery and pain meds, I'll never, ever dispense them to myself and I'm hoping I can just get through life w/o ever taking any.

I recently moved and haven't found my 'home' group yet. I miss my meetings so much. I can't wait to go back and visit my meeting friends once off Sub. Meetings are such a good way to stay on track. Romeo, About the smoking, congratulations on weaning. That takes so much willpower!!!!!! I'd set aside the $$ you would have spent on cigs to do something cool for myself. I quit smoking myself 3 yrs ago. I had to actually stop going to meetings for two weeks because that was my slippery slope and I couldn't imagine a meeting without smoking. When I went and didn't smoke, it felt awesome!!! You can do it and you won't stink anymore!!

I agree that Robert_325's plan works best for short-term Sub users. I did ask him whether it applied to long-term users like me. He seems to think it does. I wonder if there are a lot of people over on that forum who are tapering slowly but don't want to say that Robert's plan didn't work for them. It seems like the very accepted way, and I guess if it worked for him, I can see why he believes in it. The bottom line is that everyone is different!! What I've learned from him is to give back once you are helped. It's so important to pass on the support and the education and the encouragement. I'm hoping meetings will eventually be a way for me to help people struggling and ready to get off Sub do it in a wise and safe way.

hatmaker, thank you so much for the info on the ceiling. I've noticed in the past that 4 mg is a tricky amount to reduce from. Going from 4 to 3 is very, very tough, especially if done in one drop!! I will be at 5 for quite some time. That's pretty clear to me. After that, I'll go to 4.5, 4, 3 2/3, 3 1/3, 3, 2.75, 2.5, 2.25, 2, and so on. Baby steps. I can cut those films really tiny. I don't care if it takes me a long time because I really believe baby steps will most likely help me avoid PAWS. It makes no sense to rapidly taper or (even worse) do the Sub surgery rapid detox and then wake up to 1.5 years of PAWS. There are no quick fixes. This is a long haul, but it will be such a huge victory in the end. I'm getting Lasik once I'm done to reward myself. Even if I have to charge it, :wink: !

laddertipper


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Laddertipper, I just had to mention that your 'attitude' from your first post to your last couple of posts has changed 180 degrees. It is so refreshing to see you so much more upbeat and 'thinking clearly'...impressive.

Put money aside from the cigs I didn't smoke and then do something cool for myself, I did that and guess what I bought...a pack of smokes. HAHA. Just kidding, that's just how my warped mind works. :)

As far as getting off of sub, you can follow roberts plan or you can follow my plan or you can follow someone elses plan or you can follow your own plan...I vote you follow your own plan. It has the greatest chance of success, especially if it's flexible when needed.

I agree with giving back, what a waste of suffering it would have been if we all kept our experiences to ourselves! If I can help just 1 person I would be ecstatic, 2 people I would be blown away, any more than 2 people and I just plain would not know how to act.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:14 pm 
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I actually read my posts to my best friend over the phone and she said the same thing. It was certainly a good idea to come here. I had started frequenting that other forum and got into the rut of thinking there was only one way to do it and if I didn't want to do it that way then I wasn't ready. And I really didn't understand where the 25% came from and why it had to be that way, but that guy over there is so busy that I couldn't exactly ask him a thousand complicated scientific questions. I think you're right about it being 'My Plan'. Only I know when it's a good time to go down. I don't want to drop down when I feel like heck just because it's time to according to The Master Plan that someone else created. This forum has always had a noticeably positive and informative feel. There's not a lot of Group Think here. There's room for lots of opinions. This is a pretty cool and reassuring place.

My husband came home from work yesterday for lunch and kinda made my day. He let me know he knew I was going through a lot with the Sub thing and I spilled my guts about my insecurities about how to taper and about not wanting it to impact his life again. He made it clear that I can lean on him and he wants me to let him know how I'm doing. Plus, he told me to chill and not rush it. It made me feel so much better.

I guess it just feels good to be moving in the right direction. My goal has really changed. I'm not putting time limits on myself. My main objective is to be disciplined about making the best decisions about the present instead of always focusing on the future and to not go back up on my dose. Other than that, whenever I get there, I get there!

laddertipper


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:34 pm 
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You're certainly correct about this forum offering many different opinions sometimes and I absolutely agree with you that this is a good thing, in fact I think it's what makes this place so strong. The diversity of its members all with an equally strong voice is powerful. I actually didn't find this web site until Robert325 had a nutty on that poor guy for offering his opinion of how someone should detox. I mean he ripped that guy a new one for expressing his opinion, I knew then that his site was not for me. I think history has proven time and again that a tyranny or dictatorship does not work.

That is great, great news about your husband supporting you. That will help so much, he probably has no idea, but i'm glad he stepped up. I am supremely lucky to have a wife that has supported me through it ALL. I remember coming home one night, actually morning, about 6am, stoned out of my mind on cocaine and she met me at the door... :shock: , I thought I was in trouble. She said she loved me, gave me a big hug and told me to come up to bed. Can you imagine.

Without her support, I'm afraid to think where I would be right now.

I'm so proud of you and your new attitude. Stay strong.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:11 am 
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Hi laddertipper -

I just wanted to drop in and add my support for the flexible taper-plan idea. When I tapered, I had a general idea of how fast I wanted/needed to go and how much I wanted to reduce with each drop - but I also knew that I needed to be flexible.

Just a couple of examples of when I found myself needing that flexibility: When I was on a higher dose of Suboxone, I never, ever got sick. As soon as I got below 1mg, it seemed like I was catching every cold that was going around town. Since I needed to keep working while I was tapering and be able to take care of myself and my family, I would put off a decrease in my dose if I was already feeling unwell. I also put off reductions if the coincided with "that time of the month" if you know what I mean :twisted: Gawd, PMS is bad enough without adding opiate withdrawal to the mix.

I was also flexible if I just wasn't feeling up to it or if I felt that I hadn't really acclimated to the last reduction or whatever. I figured it was no big deal, I'd already been on Sub for close to 2 years, what's the big deal about another few weeks, right?

Best of luck to you, I hope your taper goes as smoothly as possible.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:23 am 
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You wife saying that maybe wasn't what you expected, but I think she both loves you and is a smart lady. You were probably ready to have your behind handed to you and she turned it all around by saying she loved you and welcoming you back home. I'm sure you felt bad enough about yourself about the coke, and so your defenses would have just gone up and you would have said stuff to push her away, which would have made you feel even more worthless. She so smart to show you how much you meant because it made you not worthless. It made you loved.

My husband's reaction blew me away. I regularly underestimate him. I don't get how someone who hasn't been through this can be so patient and sympathetic. I guess we just married good people. So, maybe we're pretty good people ourselves.

I know who you are talking about as far as the guy who really got it for questioning Robert's methods. That was a little freaky to me and a big red flag. I respect Robert's work but people have to feel like they have the right to question or outright disagree without getting in trouble. I don't believe long-term Sub users can reduce at 25 % every 4 days and have only mild discomfort. Nope...don't buy it! I wouldn't be surprised if they said they were doing okay because that's what they were 'supposed' to feel. And it also wouldn't surprise me if some people keep on with the reductions and deal with feeling totally awful because there is someone telling them that's absolutely what they must do. When you cannot ask 'why' or 'how does that work' without being directed to a link that doesn't explain those things anyway, it feels like blind faith. Blind faith is very rarely a good thing!!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:49 am 
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Laddertipper said, "So, maybe we're pretty good people ourselves. "

Uh huh, I've struggled with that one for a long time. The straw that broke the camels back, so to speak, was my daughter. She was maybe 5 or 6 at the time and she kept saying 'Daddy, I love you". She would say it night after night after night and I finally got it...maybe I'm a pretty good person after all. It took a lot of 'goodnight, I love you daddy' to sink in, but it finally did and helped me to be able to move forward in my recovery. Thank God for little girls.


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 Post subject: Amen for that, Romeo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:40 pm 
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That's really sweet. Children are so wonderful!! I know exactly what you mean. I have three, two girls and a boy. My littlest one is this teeny little pumpkin and she is standing on my leg right now and giggling and then whispering, "Mommy, i love you!" You know, one day when she's grown up you can tell her how much it meant to you to hear that she loved you and how it helped you stay on track. What a cool thing that would be for her to know!! :)

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