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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Hi everyone,

I have been trying to get as much info I can before I start taking suboxen. After reading many many posts on this site, I feel more people on here know more than most dr's do.
I guess I will start with this question 1st and go from there...
how does the dr determine what dose to start a patient on? and how soon will you start to feel "normal"? I wanted to be "normal" when I see my family for xmas. should I wait until after the holidays? I really want to start asap. I so want to be "normal" again?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Welcome Snow White. Unfortunately, like many questions, the answer to yours is "it depends" As for the starting dose - It will depend a lot on the doctor and then even if you have a good doctor it will depend on the specific situation and your condition. Many docs seem to start at too high of a dose, often 16 mg day. Then again, some patients actually need that high of a starting dose. Others may start you lower. Generally it seems extremely rare that anyone requires more than 16 mg a day. If I were advising a friend or loved one I would even suggest they not take more than 16 mg a day regardless of what the doctor prescribed as typically it's just wasted milligrams and wasted dollars. As time goes on it is getting more and more generally accepted that 16 milligrams is the max while a lot of people do well anywhere between four and 8 mg per day.

As for how long before you feel better… That again depends. However it's not at all unheard of to feel much better within 24 hours. Many people feel much better within a few days. Of course some never feeling better although that's not common and others say it takes a couple weeks. I personally felt much better within 24 hours. Now remember this will depend on the level of opiates you are currently taking each day and how long the half-life of the drugs you are taking. Also remember you must be in withdraw before you can even take Bup. In general I would strongly suspect that if you can get on Suboxone by sometime next week you'll be doing very well by Christmas. There is a reason that some segment of Suboxone patient call it a miracle drug or a miracle cure because it is very dramatic in a short period of time.

I'm sure other people can give you their personal experience as well. The best thing would be for you to tell us the current situation - how long You've been abusing opiates, what are you taking, how many milligrams a day, etc. after knowing more about you we can get you more complete and more appropriate, specific and correct answers to your questions.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:53 am 
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thank u for responding Donh! Im still trying to figure out how to work this site. I hope I am responding to you in the correct place..
I have been taking percocets for apx 5 yrs. I started taking them b/c of severe neck pain that also causes severe migraines. I also have very bad arthritis. I was told when by my dr when I was in my early 30's, im 42 now, I am going to have serious pain when I get old b/c my neck is so bad. I didn't believe it b/c I didn't have any pain back then. I also car accidents, rear ended a few times back in my 20's. That is where the herniation's and bulges came from in my neck and the arthritis is hereditary. I honestly have just built more and more of a tolerance as the years went on and the pain became worse. stress also plays a major factor in my condition. the past year is when things got really bad for me, emotionally as well as physically. and now that my tolerance is so high, taking the normal dosage 6 10/325 per day, doesn't help anymore. i honeslty don't take them to get high, i take them to feel normal. ive heard about suboxen but was always afraid to substitute one addiction for another. but after doing a lot reading on it, i think that's what i need to do. i also have depression and serious anxiety. i am hoping the suboxen helps w/ those issues as well. im sorry if i am rambling, its hard 4 me to even write on here. ive wanted to write numerous times and just feel stupid and end up deleting. thank u again for responding. i would really like to be able to talk to people who are going through this. b/c i am so scared. my appt w/ my dr is wed morning.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Please don't feel stupid. Your post makes complete sense and actually suggests you could have a very good prognosis on sub. Some might say sub treatment is overkill for your situation. That may or may not be the case. Have you tried to taper or quit using other methods? If not, you may want to. How will you treat the pain if you stop opiates? Some people report some pain relief from sub. If you still need pain relief sub might be your best bet. Some also report improvement with both depression and anxiety even though sub is not an approved treatment for those. If it works,it works.

Best of all, when comparing your history to many others, you are on the lower scale for dependency on opiates. 60 mg per day is rather small. There are people who take 60 mg AT ONE TIME! This points to you likely doing very well on sub. I probably would be hesitant to take any ore than 8 mg/day of sub based on what you are saying. Your tolerance should provide for a very smooth transition onto sub.

The big question is, should you? That's where I would focus with your doc. Is this the right move for you. I would discuss the following with him.

1 what will you do for pain control?
2 are you actually addicted to opiates or just physically dependent?
3 can you taper and stop opiates without sub?
4 what is the long term plan? Will you stay on sub long term for pain or just use it for 6-12 months to stop the opiates?

I hope this helps. I agin am encouraged by what you've provided that you are likely to do very well. Please keep us updated with what happens.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:11 am 
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That is exactly what I worry about, what do I do about the pain. Its only going to get worse as I get older but being taking 6 pain meds a day does nothing for me, my only option would be to go to a stronger pain med but I do NOT want to do that. I do have a addiction in my family but that is a whole other story... And I certainly did go thru my drug phase in my 20's. But I knew better not to go down that road and changed the friends I was hanging out with. b/c I knew 1st hand where doing drugs lead u. BOTH my parents had serious addictions and I did not want that life..
I also wondered what the difference is btw being dependent and being addicted?? I have tried to take less but then I just cant function. That's y I know I do have a problem. And need to do something about it.
If you start taking suboxen, does that mean u can never take another pain medication again? I know u cant when on it, but what happens when u get off of it? Or do most ppl just taper dwn to the smallest does they can and just stay on it?

Thank you again for responding, u r the only one who did.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:55 pm 
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snowwhite wrote:
That is exactly what I worry about, what do I do about the pain. Its only going to get worse as I get older but being taking 6 pain meds a day does nothing for me, my only option would be to go to a stronger pain med but I do NOT want to do that. I do have a addiction in my family but that is a whole other story... And I certainly did go thru my drug phase in my 20's. But I knew better not to go down that road and changed the friends I was hanging out with. b/c I knew 1st hand where doing drugs lead u. BOTH my parents had serious addictions and I did not want that life..
I also wondered what the difference is btw being dependent and being addicted?? I have tried to take less but then I just cant function. That's y I know I do have a problem. And need to do something about it.
If you start taking suboxen, does that mean u can never take another pain medication again? I know u cant when on it, but what happens when u get off of it? Or do most ppl just taper dwn to the smallest does they can and just stay on it?

Thank you again for responding, u r the only one who did.


My doctor explained to me that the goal of starting sub is to ultimately get off sub completely. it's a temporary solution to get your dependency issues sorted out. My doc gave me a time frame of a year of being on sub.

I think a good sub doctor can help you determine between physical dependence and addiction. For me, addiction meant physical dependence plus psychological dependence, and that the pain meds weren't just helping my pain, but also lifting my mood. I was relying on the "general sense of well-being" opiates are known for creating.
I knew I was addicted when all I could think about was how to acquire more after only a few days or a week of finishing a prescription. I don't know if that helps.

I can tell you suboxone gives me pain relief, I don't feel the need for pain meds of any kind.
How you will handle pain after sub is again something that your doctor should be helping you create a plan for. My doctor is taking a "lets cross that bridge when we come to it" approach.
It's anxiety provoking enough to get on sub; the idea is that with a year of suboxone supported sobriety under your belt on sub, you'll be better able to face the pain control question.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:08 pm 
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If you want to feel "normal" again-stop taking everything and ride it out. Don't creat another monster (by starting subs) that you will face some where down the road. Here's the thing-subs are great for a quick detox but for long term maintenance? It has it's pros and cons. I been on subs for 3 years. This last year on subs have been a challenge. I'm getting ready to jump-having a hard time tapering past 1.8-2mg. So I think it's time to ride it out.
Suboxone/subutex is like a Band-Aid that will stop the bleeding from a deep wound, as long as you take subs the bleeding will stop but the wound won't fully heal.

Picture this-you were in an accident and have many small cuts and bruises (different aspects in your life-family, relationship, health, money, etc.) but you have this one deep cut that you cant stop the bleeding no matter what you do (active addiction). You can't heal all the smaller cuts and bruises until you address that deep wound that won't stop bleeding. Sooner or later you will bleed out and you can die if you don't address this nasty cut (addiction!) You receive help and are given this special band-aid (suboxone/subutex) that will stop the bleeding. You think you have found the answer. The small cuts/bruises start to heal up, get better (relationships, family, health, career, etc) while you keep this band-aid on. This is really great because for the first time in a long time you feel great but...the deep wound just won't fully heal. It wound looks better but while that band-aid (taking subs) is on, it just won't fully heal. So you decide to remove that band-aid (stop subs), so you can fully heal that cut (mentally). It's very painful the first 2 weeks after removing the band-aid (subs). The next 6-12 months, the cut may get infected (ups and downs in life, PAWS) but nonetheless it's truly healing for the first time since the accident.

It hurts either you go (no subs or subs) but there comes a time in life when you got to face the music. If your life is outa control (like mine, living big and fast in Las Vegas, in n out of rehabs and jail) then maybe subs are the best option for you while you get your life straight. I wish I was more educated on suboxone/subutex at the beginning so I knew what I was truly getting myself into. But hey, it's time for me to take this band-aid off and let the real healing begin.

I suggest-I know it's HARD as hell but bite the bullet and get off the shit now! If u have to, use subs for acute WDs (5-7 days) and then let the healing begin.

Get help, reach out, educate yourself, focus on bettering yourself physically emotionally and spiritually, life can be a bitch but learn from your hardships, not run from it and numb yourself.

Good luck to you.

Betterdayz


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:27 am 
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thank u TOBEWELL,

your response was extremely helpful to me. i can truly relate to everything you said.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Betterdayz wrote:
If you want to feel "normal" again-stop taking everything and ride it out. Don't creat another monster (by starting subs) that you will face some where down the road. Here's the thing-subs are great for a quick detox but for long term maintenance? It has it's pros and cons. I been on subs for 3 years. This last year on subs have been a challenge. I'm getting ready to jump-having a hard time tapering past 1.8-2mg. So I think it's time to ride it out.
Suboxone/subutex is like a Band-Aid that will stop the bleeding from a deep wound, as long as you take subs the bleeding will stop but the wound won't fully heal.

Picture this-you were in an accident and have many small cuts and bruises (different aspects in your life-family, relationship, health, money, etc.) but you have this one deep cut that you cant stop the bleeding no matter what you do (active addiction). You can't heal all the smaller cuts and bruises until you address that deep wound that won't stop bleeding. Sooner or later you will bleed out and you can die if you don't address this nasty cut (addiction!) You receive help and are given this special band-aid (suboxone/subutex) that will stop the bleeding. You think you have found the answer. The small cuts/bruises start to heal up, get better (relationships, family, health, career, etc) while you keep this band-aid on. This is really great because for the first time in a long time you feel great but...the deep wound just won't fully heal. It wound looks better but while that band-aid (taking subs) is on, it just won't fully heal. So you decide to remove that band-aid (stop subs), so you can fully heal that cut (mentally). It's very painful the first 2 weeks after removing the band-aid (subs). The next 6-12 months, the cut may get infected (ups and downs in life, PAWS) but nonetheless it's truly healing for the first time since the accident.

It hurts either you go (no subs or subs) but there comes a time in life when you got to face the music. If your life is outa control (like mine, living big and fast in Las Vegas, in n out of rehabs and jail) then maybe subs are the best option for you while you get your life straight. I wish I was more educated on suboxone/subutex at the beginning so I knew what I was truly getting myself into. But hey, it's time for me to take this band-aid off and let the real healing begin.

I suggest-I know it's HARD as hell but bite the bullet and get off the shit now! If u have to, use subs for acute WDs (5-7 days) and then let the healing begin.

Get help, reach out, educate yourself, focus on bettering yourself physically emotionally and spiritually, life can be a bitch but learn from your hardships, not run from it and numb yourself.

Good luck to you.

Betterdayz


Hi Betterdayz,
I agree with everything u said but the problem is, I don't know how. If I could just stop everything I would. Its just not that easy. And you are right suboxen is just a Band-Aid but I don't have a support system and my life is certainly not where it should be.
Are you saying u regret going on subs?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:24 pm 
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snowwhite wrote:
Betterdayz wrote:
If you want to feel "normal" again-stop taking everything and ride it out. Don't creat another monster (by starting subs) that you will face some where down the road. Here's the thing-subs are great for a quick detox but for long term maintenance? It has it's pros and cons. I been on subs for 3 years. This last year on subs have been a challenge. I'm getting ready to jump-having a hard time tapering past 1.8-2mg. So I think it's time to ride it out.
Suboxone/subutex is like a Band-Aid that will stop the bleeding from a deep wound, as long as you take subs the bleeding will stop but the wound won't fully heal.

Picture this-you were in an accident and have many small cuts and bruises (different aspects in your life-family, relationship, health, money, etc.) but you have this one deep cut that you cant stop the bleeding no matter what you do (active addiction). You can't heal all the smaller cuts and bruises until you address that deep wound that won't stop bleeding. Sooner or later you will bleed out and you can die if you don't address this nasty cut (addiction!) You receive help and are given this special band-aid (suboxone/subutex) that will stop the bleeding. You think you have found the answer. The small cuts/bruises start to heal up, get better (relationships, family, health, career, etc) while you keep this band-aid on. This is really great because for the first time in a long time you feel great but...the deep wound just won't fully heal. It wound looks better but while that band-aid (taking subs) is on, it just won't fully heal. So you decide to remove that band-aid (stop subs), so you can fully heal that cut (mentally). It's very painful the first 2 weeks after removing the band-aid (subs). The next 6-12 months, the cut may get infected (ups and downs in life, PAWS) but nonetheless it's truly healing for the first time since the accident.

It hurts either you go (no subs or subs) but there comes a time in life when you got to face the music. If your life is outa control (like mine, living big and fast in Las Vegas, in n out of rehabs and jail) then maybe subs are the best option for you while you get your life straight. I wish I was more educated on suboxone/subutex at the beginning so I knew what I was truly getting myself into. But hey, it's time for me to take this band-aid off and let the real healing begin.

I suggest-I know it's HARD as hell but bite the bullet and get off the shit now! If u have to, use subs for acute WDs (5-7 days) and then let the healing begin.

Get help, reach out, educate yourself, focus on bettering yourself physically emotionally and spiritually, life can be a bitch but learn from your hardships, not run from it and numb yourself.

Good luck to you.

Betterdayz


Hi Betterdayz,
I agree with everything u said but the problem is, I don't know how. If I could just stop everything I would. Its just not that easy. And you are right suboxen is just a Band-Aid but I don't have a support system and my life is certainly not where it should be.
Are you saying u regret going on subs?


Betterdayz seems to be taking an anti-sub approach. The thing is, if you could "just stop," we wouldn't be discussing sub! If people could "just stop" we wouldn't need this forum. The fact is, yes, it is a Band-aid of sorts, but it's a Band-aid that allows you to focus on getting help because you are no longer craving pills. I dread the day I have to get off sub, but it's holding me together for now. And that's what recovery is: one day at a time. I also feel like I'm trading one dependence for another, but the KEY DIFFERENCE is you're doing it according to a doctor's plan- you won't take more than prescribed, and you won't even give pills a second thought. So everything is above board, you are under a doctor's care... you're not doctor shopping or trying to get pills. You can rely on your doctor and not worry about scripts running out.
Especially if you don't have a support system, sub can give that extra help you need.

I have to respond to the following pearls of wisdom from Betterdayz:
"Get help, reach out, educate yourself, focus on bettering yourself physically emotionally and spiritually." Get help where? Reach out to who? You? Isn't she reaching out by using this forum? Thanks for the crash course in sobriety, though.


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