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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:30 pm 
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[font=Tahoma]I understand I just set myself back & made a REALLY stupid, weak decision so please try & be open minded, I have only posted a few times but this forum helped my slow taper immensely & the community seems very friendly and good at giving advice, so any will be much appreciated :)

So... I was inducted into 16 mg (I almost never used that much, starting at 12 and sometimes on a good day even 8mg, my doctor knew as well.) Suboxone maintenance December 1st, 2009 after approximately a year to a year an a half of going from a 15-30 mg occasionally habit to full fledged 90mg+ a day of Oxycodone instant release roxys. I did pretty well during my maintenance, not perfect. I'd say I was sober 95% of the time, and those points were distanced binges, meaning I would go months at a time perfectly. I decided for many reasons, one being that the job I want requires a drug test, and I would like to work there in the future after I graduate college so I do not want them knowing I was ever a drug addict. Anyway, from advice from my doctor to this board, I embarked on a very slow taper starting around May, going from 8mg-4mg depending on the day to
all estimates, I have some records but I remember the general timeline
[*]4mg for about a <month or so
[*]then alternating 4mg and 2mg for every other day for about 10 days
[*]Then I stayed on 2mg for awhile, weeks..... however I did not dose every day, and only tried to use as necessary. I did experience w/d symptoms upon waking and at other times because of this.
[*]Within the 2 months, I have slowly decreased my dose to 1mg, to 1/16th of a pill to mere crumbs.

Upon waking every morning, I felt like shit. part of myself knew I was doing it slowly as many professionals recommend, but part of it felt like slow torture.

Anyway, to the bad stuff. I slipped up a few times since I've been at >.5 but overall was doing good, and I just NEED this done with even though I know some will say this proves I need longer therapy, this isn't an option. One of these times was 4 days ago, and my mom found out, plus I was disgusted with myself so I decided to cut off everything completely, something I've been planning for awhile.
Day 1 was fine, a bit discomfort towards the end
2 was horrible. Hot & cold sweats, restless leg and muscle soreness and then insomnia along with all the lovely stomach issues
3 was all of those x10 plus extreme nerve pain, I'm talking about through my spine out to all my appendages, I was on klonopin to which I'm prescribed plus vitamins like 5htp and even took and ambien but I couldn't stop moving, sweating, heaving... you all know. The psychological was starting to eat me away, I felt as though I was going through the darkest pits of human existence, and I was desperate for a few hours of relief, even if it was to go back to the pain being longer and harder, along with being weak and a liar to my mother, who is a nurse and has hardly slept being by my side. I didn't slip up yet, however..
Today, day four, around a hour or so ago, I did. I had finally "slept" through 5 hours of constant waking up and restlessness, chills, sweats, cramps.. and one thought, only one. It wouldn't go away, no matter any other non opiod I took. I hardly have suboxone left.. and I didn't want that. I didn't care. I was close to wanting to just die in my sleep.

My friend brought me one 3omg, something she felt terrible about and me too.. but I couldn't not have some kind of buffer. I know I have brought more days of hell to come, however I also know I am strong enough to do this.
I did half the pill, and I will be doing the other 15mg. My questions are, with the tiny amount along with almost 4 days of detoxing and being on almost no suboxone for months, should I be expecting the severity of the last 3 days all over again?? Or perhaps a lighter but longer road? And am I better off just doing it sooner rather than later, so the half life is gone quicker? I just have been through so much pain, everyday upon waking for MONTHS because of the slow taper method. The last 72 hours, which I was awake for most were hell and I felt as if I had no choice. I don't want advice on my life, just how I'm going to feel detoxing and how far back I set myself. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:02 am 
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kissthesky,

I am glad you felt comfortable sharing your experience. It is a tough thing to do when you feel vulnerable. I have been where you are at and I know what you are going through. I completely understand the desire to be totally off of it and to put this addiction behind you once and for all. I can empathize with the sub withdrawal. I can relate to wanting to die in your sleep and wanting just a few hours of relief. ANYTHING to take that feeling away. Especially the psychological.

When I was in your position, I had jumped off 12mg. I think my WD symptoms were similar although I think lesser than what you are describing, although still horrible. In fact that is when I found this site was after the first 7 days or so of withdrawal when I was finally capable of getting up and typing something. I was dying for someone to tell me how long this was going to last. At least then I could count down the days and have some light at the end of this long dark tunnel. But no one could really give me an answer. I am going to do my best to give you something to hold onto and give you some kind of certainty even if it looks bleak.

It sounds like you took full agonist opiates but you didn't specifically state. There is no 30mg sub so I am assuming it is oxycontin or something. In my experience, taking full agonist opiates while in withdrawal from suboxone will not extend the length of your worst withdrawal symptoms. In fact if you just take a very small amount of opitate (I think 15mg of oxy would be a bit more than what you probably needed to eliminate withdrawal) it seemed to me that it just helped me get through the cravings and ease the withdrawal enough to make life more livable. Then when off the opiate, I just seemed to pick up in the process as though I had still been in withdrawal those days. i.e. I didn't go back to the state I was in when I took the opiate for relief. It was almost like I was just doing a VERY long and VERY slow extended taper. They key however is not using MORE opiate. I would suggest talking to a doctor about some comfort meds like clonidine and immodium AD, maybe some neurontin or trazadone, and there are a few others for nausea, etc. That ought to eliminate any physical withdrawal you have left to face. You don't need an opiate to get rid of those. The hardest part is the insomnia because next to nothing really works. For me, neurontin really helped with that and I was also taking restless leg medicine which helped at the same time. It took months and I could not sleep without medication for months. The worst of the physical withdrawal for me was about 14 days. Then after that it was insomnia and PAWS and the PAWS was impossible. Granted that was jumping from 12mg. But from what I have seen, jumping from 12mg and jumping from .5mg seems to provide about the exact same result. There is very little difference.

I highly encourage you to stick around while you go through this. In a couple of weeks, the physical part will basically be over but you will need a lot of support getting through the PAWS. If you find yourself in a position where you are taking opiates for relief at that stage, then you will have many very tough decisions to make. I suggest that you start exercising if you haven't been. Force yourself if you can (I couldn't make myself do it). PAWS gets better every day but it is such a slow process. Ssssssllllllllloooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwww.

I realize this is long and I am very sorry for this. Several other people on this site have been where you are at right now. Many can provide their experience so you can draw from it. Please stick around though. You are going to need these people.

Best wishes! Good luck! Take care! Try not to take anymore opiates and if you do.........only what you absolutely need to get minimal relief.
Cherie

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:56 am 
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Yeah, it was oxy. Thank you for your kind words and intelligent advice, I am now detoxing for what seems like the 10th time these past few weeks. But i can't help thinking i'm getting my body unaccustomed to this horrible substance/s. Seriously, your reply is really appreciated and was well thought out
xx kim


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:13 pm 
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Good Golly, we all know the immense desire to jump over, around, duck under, trick and avoid the dreaded withdrawals and subsequent PAWS. there is also the other factor of just simply missing the high and living life on lifes terms. part is behavioral, part is undoing the brain damage opiates have done to all of us. If you read my thread, i have been a part of a study here in progressive palm beach florida (unfortunately, the crux of many illegal pain centers too) and thte theory being to help avoid drawing out the taper completely. I was on subutex for 10 months. i learned alot about myself, got honest, and believed it to be instrumental in my recovery. my doctor wanted me to be a part of this study which was stopping the sub at whatever I was at (6 mg) and immmediately used 2 50 mcg fentanyl patches for 3 days each. the ONLY function of the patch was to rip ALL the sub off the receptors thus negating the long half life factor which plagues many people. after the 6 days, my receptors were essentially clean, and then I had to wait 4 days before beginning LDN (low dose naltrexone) which is NOT the same as Narcan to reverse an overdose! it is used to amp up endorphins to get mood and energy up immediately as well as being an opiate antaganist to act as a safety net for relapse. I am almost through, and will be startubg the LDN tomorrow night. the fent did nothing, nor was it supposed to. it broke through the sub and gave my receptors a "second chance". the abstract for the study has been accepted by the New England Journal of Med, and I hope to have great news to share regarding paws come tuesday morning! good luck!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Wow mwflordia,

That sounds really interesting, please come back and let us know how it turns out :)


Kissthesky,

I hope your doing well???? I will keep you in my prayers :)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:44 am 
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Boy....reading these threads scare me to the depths of despair. That wicked withdrawal. Man, it is to be feared(I refuse to say, respected)

I, as usual, took a few extra subs(yes, again). My last normal dose 8mg a,m, and 12mg p.m. was Thursday. Today is Monday & I have been living on 2 or 3 mg pieces.

Here's the weird part. I feel fine. Better than when I was on full dosage. No WD's eating and even sleeping at least 3-5 hours.

Has anyone been through this? Am I getting too happy, too soon?

Love, queenie


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:49 am 
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Queenie - it's possible you just don't need the higher dosage you've been on. Many people report feeling better when they get to the lowest possible dose to get rid of cravings and withdrawals.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:34 pm 
queenie - yes I went down from 12mg to 4mg a day, and feel so much better now.

kissthesky:At the risk of sounding like a total a-hole, looking back at your experience do you still think the following quote is accurate, or do you think that you were just feeling particularly crummy at the time you posted:

"Day 1 was fine, a bit discomfort towards the end
2 was horrible. Hot & cold sweats, restless leg and muscle soreness and then insomnia along with all the lovely stomach issues
3 was all of those x10 plus extreme nerve pain, I'm talking about through my spine out to all my appendages, I was on klonopin to which I'm prescribed plus vitamins like 5htp and even took and ambien but I couldn't stop moving, sweating, heaving... you all know.
The psychological was starting to eat me away, I felt as though I was going through the darkest pits of human existence, and I was desperate for a few hours of relief..."

Your answer is extremely important because you probably scared the hell out of about 100 lurkers; and potential Sub patients reading this are probably thinking why not detox straight off of oxy or heroin and skip Sub all together. Are you sure you just weren't trying to justify taking a 30mg oxy? I'm not judging you, man, honestly. I took oxy myself to get off of Sub. Did you try high dose Motrin and immodium?

The only reason I'm calling you on this is that there's a huge urban legend that says detoxing off of Sub is 10x worse than oxy or heroin. It's posts like this that perpetuate it.

Hope you're doing better now. What's the latest?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:52 am 
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OK, so you have stopped sub, made it the first few days, then are kicked down by the emotional shit, the never ending PAWS, the relapse blah blah blah... you all know! Well, read my thread on stopping sub. the LDN is a wonderful hope and alternative when one is really ready to change... second day on LDN and feeling GREAT! no lethargy, great mood, happy and HOPEFUL! cheers!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:48 am 
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mwflorida,

You know as well as anyone else that you really can't one piece of your experience from this study and suggest it is the same thing as what you just did. I am sure there is a reason that the doctor suggested the fentanyl patch FIRST and I am also sure there is reasoning behind the number of days involved in waiting, etc. You can't take the theory your doctor has which is unproven as of yet and jump from this to suggesting people just go get low dose naltrexone. Furthermore, the fact that it worked for you does not mean that overall the study was shown to have statistical significance. I don't see any problem with the details of the study being put out there and appreciate you sharing your experience. I also think it is premature to conclude that it worked AND to jump to the point of assuming low dose naltrexone alone would work to eliminate PAWS. Keep in mind that when I jumped off sub at 12mg my pupils were HUGE for months and long after the worst of the physical withdrawals were gone which suggests I was actually in withdrawal. I do not know what in the body causes that exactly, but to me it could suggest that the fentanyl patch would be necessary in avoiding the PAWS associated with withdrawal. I could be very wrong, but this is part of the reason it is necessary to have the results of the whole study since individual experience is unreliable.

Cherie

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 Post subject: goodluck and goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:10 pm 
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i wish you all well. Jackcrack, you make me not want to post. I in NO way "told" anyone what to do, and I am well aware it is a study, however LDN was approved for opiate and alcohol addiction years ago. My ONLY purpose was to give some hope to people who felt they couldnt get past the paws. we all need to remember not to cross the line from student to teacher, to dictator to dic...
peace


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Am I watching a re-run of "The View" where rather than discuss or even debate, we walk off the show? WTF? I can appreciate your enthusiasm, optimism, and hope that your study will support your hypothesis - show what you hope it to show. But it is a bit premature to recommend that "the LDN is a wonderful hope and alternative when one is really ready to change..." Your exact words, not mine (or Jacks).

I could say more... I could say a lot more... But I'll just stop here.

So, please, just walk back, sit-down on the couch and continue to participate. Your opinion, experience, and "view" is just as important as Jack's, mine, or anyone else's here. What is ever gained by throwing up your hands and running off?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:21 pm 
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I'm certainly not intending to run anyone off but I can now see why MWFlorida must always remind everyone of her profession as a therapist since based on behavior and commentary no one would be able to figure it out otherwise. Furthermore, the fact that LDN was apparently approved years ago for this reason doesn't make it a wonderful hope or alternative since no one is using or recommending it to anyone, in and of itself, as a cure for withdrawal or PAWS except MWFlorida here on this forum based on a single personal and subjective experience which actually involved a sequence of drugs, not just LDN, which aren't approved for suboxone withdrawal or narcotic addiction. I am sorry but if you justify prior comments by claiming to be an expert in statistics then one might also think you would rely on those statistics rather than personal experience when making recommendations to others especially when you don't actually have ANY personal experience using JUST LDN for PAWS to begin with.

Furthermore, in my personal opinion, taking someone else's vulnerability and their post and merely directing them to your own post pertaining to a study that isn't completed yet and which there is no data to support isn't helpful to the original poster at all since they CAN'T participate in it or use it and even if they could use LDN to help PAWS, then one would direct them to studies showing that LDN proved beneficial for this, NOT direct them to their own post which isn't actually helpful to the original poster.

This is the response the original poster receives AFTER the rest of the forum just received a lecture about how no one was an active listener and that MWFlorida is a therapist, REMEMBER (as if any of us would be allowed to forget) and that only SHE is an active listener. Yet in my opinion, there was no active listening here at all. In fact it reminds me of one of those friends you have who never lets you get a sentence out because they are so busy thinking and interrupting you with their own opinions and statements that they never even hear whatever it is you were trying to say to begin with.

Seeing as I didn't think the comments I made before qualified me to be a dick I thought I would at least work to justify the accusation.

Finally, MWFlorida left the last time after being called out for hoarding vicodin anyways and I have the feeling that she only returned to let us all know she isn't as screwed up as she sounded when she left the last time and in fact isn't really the same as the rest of us anyways. She just thought she would swing back by one last time to make sure we all knew that.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:17 am 
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As far as I know, LDN hasn't been "approved" to treat anything. In every instance, LDN is an off-label use of naltrexone.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Wow this thread jumped the shark :lol:


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 Post subject: LDN
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Where is the thread on LDN?


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