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 Post subject: come clean?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:17 pm 
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I have been relapsing for a long time now, using my subs as a crutch more or less and taking them as a last resort. I have been full of guilt and hating myself more than ever. When i started my suboxone this time my DR. told me if i relapsed or failed a drug-test ONE TIME!! That she would take my script from me and i would lose it, I really try to accept responsability for my actions and not blame anyone for the way my life turned-out, but in this case im struggling because i would have asked for help a long time ago if i felt i could have. In the past 2 wks i have suffered 2 precipated WITHDRAWLS!! trying to get back on.... As i described in another post, it was the worst time of my life, i WAITED ONLY 7 HRS THE FIRST TIME WHICH WAS REALLY STUPID, but i had done it numerous times before with no bad reaction, the second time i waited 18 hrs!! I was sick and in withdrawl but for some reason it wasnt long enough. I suffered!!! for like 7 hrs straight both times,I am terrified to try again and Im really considering coming clean with my DOC no matter the consequences, I know for a fact i dont have another precipatated WD in me, I would end up in the hospital for sure, i just couldnt take it mentally. Thats the scary thing about suboxone ( if not used as directed!!! ) is if u do take it too soon, u r fucked!!!! and there is nothing u can do about it. Once that WD kicks in, u better hold on to your seat because you r in for the ride of your life! I'm def not trying to scare anyone, I just wanna stress waiting the extended period of time which in my eyes is at the very least 24hrs, & I'm still willing to get my docs opinion on the situation before i take it again becuse thats how bad it was people. My appointment for another 3 days, so i do hav a lil time to change my mind. I have my own buisness and really cant afford to lose my suboxone, I would lose everything. I was at 3 grams a day....$200/day which i cant afford either. What do i do? I could find some piss, pass my drugtest with flying colors, and try inducing on my own again, without risking losing my script from my doc, or i could come clean, idk either way it seems im gonna lose here, thats usually what happens to us addicts, we learn the hard way! ugh! im so tired of this cycle.....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Danny, I'm sorry for what you're going through right now. I think it's safe to say that we all remember that feeling...the chaos that keeps happening over and over. Unfortunately, I don't feel like I can advise you on how to handle your doctor. As for the P/W - that must be hellish for you. I know I would be afraid to try to induce myself again, so I don't blame you there. I really just wanted to throw my support in and tell you that you still can pick up the pieces. You can get back on sub successfully. Please just be patient. What dose are you on, by the way? I'm just thinking about the option of raising your dose in order to address the rest of your cravings. It might help....Just a thought. Good luck and again, I'm sorry you're having such a rough time right now.

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 Post subject: Lost and ???
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:23 pm 
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I JUST WANTED TO STRESS more so of how bad i feel about this and how much i am really about to lose :( if i dont make the right decision. I also truly beleive i could beat this addiction physically if it werent for the RLS i suffer so terraibly from,Last time i kicked it kept me up for 32 day straight! I mean it was relentless, every night was a freakshow, and when i say no sleep, i mean no sleep!!! I did that once, and that was 3 yrs ago and cant imagine doing it again, I really wish someone had advice, I know what the right thing is to do, but the truth may not set me free in this instance, and i guess there isnt a good choice to make considering my predictament, but there is the best choice, so plz help the kid out, i really cant even think straight, Im freaking out just thinking the hole i dug myself this time, It seems I'm able to fight and climb out of the hole, just to return,dive in head first amd keep digging deeper, and deeper, until one day......well we all know. Another thing is i have never kicked H before by itself, i hear its intense but only last 5-9 days, opposed to all the other times ive kicked a cocktail of opiates including subs which lasted that 32 days of Hell. Idk im desperate for some sanity back in my life, This is just maddness and a very sad way to just exist.....Killing myself as if my life depends on it, and the worst thing is that i know it!!


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 Post subject: some ideas...maybe...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Danny,

I don't have any magic ideas and you probably already know all of this.
But a few times when i detoxed i did a couple of things that really made a difference for me:

Take an oatmeal Aveeno bath, hot bath. If you can find access to a steam room or sauna do that too, as much as possible
While doing these things each day drink a gallon of water. Flush that crap out of your body. Take vitamins, esp. a strong B complex and keep drinking water. If you like it add fresh lemon juice to your water. It will increase the Ph of your system and help your kidneys and liver a bit.

That's not much, I know...but we want you to succeed and we understand your suffering....keep writing and talking to us about it....Chinagirl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:50 pm 
Danny I just have to say at the risk of others thinking its wrong that you should absolutely NOT TELL YOUR DOCTOR in my opinion if that means they will just drop you from the program. It is not your fault that they are ignorant to the disease of addiction and that relapse happens. If your doctor was educated on addiction and didnt more than likely just take the 8 hour course to get certified to rake in the $ she would understand your situation and be compassionate and try to help you. I look at it the same way I look at 12 step groups, they say rigerous honesty but I know that if Im honest and tell them Im on sub they will jump all over me so even if it feels wrong to keep quiet and not be completely honest admitting Im on suboxone I still know deep down it is the best thing to do and Im doing nothing wrong by doing it.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:34 pm 
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I have to agree that I wouldn't tell my doctor either. Sometimes doctors are so stupid. They think threatening you will prevent it? You aren't relapsing because you didn't know it was the wrong thing to do. Given this is really life or death and telling your doctor could actually mean death, I wouldn't risk my life on it. Technically, you could do another withdrawal, although there are ways to avoid it. I would probably try to score some ativan or xanax or clonidine (if that is even possible). Then I would stop using on a Friday afternoon. You would most certainly be sick by Saturday morning but at least you might be able to sleep through the really strong urge to use when you are coming down. I would hang in there through Saturday night and take an ativan if you can get it. Then, by Sunday morning you ought to be totally ready and guaranteed to avoid withdrawal. If you are really concerned about it, you can find a checklist online that has a point system for withdrawal symptoms. It has right on the sheet how many points you have to have to be ready for induction. If you can get your hands on that, be honest with yourself when you are checking symptoms, theoretically you should be able to induce right at the first moment possible without precipitated withdrawal. I will see if I can't dig up that checklist somehow.

Hang in there. As much as you KNOW this...I just have to say, something has to be different this time. You have to put other things in place to keep you from relapsing. As you know, playing around with full agonists and suboxone is quite dangerous because you screw up the benefits of sub. Sub is really your only option for kicking this. You can't ruin it. I hope you will use the people here on this site to help you get through this and make it different. I feel for you. God ...even talking about it makes my skin crawl and reminds me of how intense and horrible your position is.

Cherie

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Here is one website with a checklist and I pasted the checklist below. Formatting isn't great but you can certainly get the point I think.

http://www.buppractice.com/taxonomy/term/115

MODIFIED OBJECTIVE OPIATE
WITHDRAWAL SCALE Name: ______________________________
Induction Day 1
Induction Day 1
Induction Day 2
Induction Day 2
DATE
TIME
ITEMS *SCORE 1 POINT FOR EACH ITEM
1. YAWNING
2. RHINORRHEA
3. PILOERECTION
4. PERSPIRATION
5. LACRIMATION
6. MYDRIASIS
7. TREMORS (hands)
8. HOT & COLD FLASHES
9. RESTLESSNESS
10. VOMITING
11. MUSCLE ACHES
12. ABDOMINAL CRAMPS
13. ANXIETY
TOTAL SCORE:
INITIALS
B/P
P
*A score of ≥ 3 is necessary for initial buprenorphine administration

Here is another checklist. It didn't quite copy in the right order so try finding it online. All I did was google "suboxone withdrawal checklist". It took me less than a minute to find.
http://www.buppractice.com/resources/re ... 115?page=2

Patient Name: Date: Time:
Reason for this assessment:
1. Resting pulse rate: ______ beats/minute
Measured after the patient is sitting or lying for one
minute. 7. GI upset: over last half hour
0 Pulse rate 80 or below 0 No GI symptoms
1 Pulse rate 81–100 1 Stomach cramps
2 Pulse rate 101–120 2 Nausea or loose stool
4 Pulse rate greater than 120 3 Vomiting or diarrhea
5 Multiple episodes of diarrhea or vomiting
2. Sweating: over past half hour not accounted for by
room temperature of patient activity 8. Tremor: observation of outstretched hands
0 No reports of chills or flushing 0 No tremor
1 Subjective reports of chills or flushing 1 Tremor can be felt, but not observed
2 Flushed or observable moisture on face 2 Slight tremor observable
3 Beads of sweat on brow or face
4 Sweat streaming off face
4 Gross tremor or muscle twitching
3. Restlessness: observation during assessment 9. Yawning: observation during assessment
0 Able to sit still 0 No yawning
1 Reports difficulty sitting still, but is able to do so 1 Yawning once or twice during assessment
3 Frequent shifting or extraneous movements of
legs/arms
2 Yawning three or more times during
assessment
5 Unable to sit still for more than a few seconds 4 Yawning several times/minute
4. Pupil size 10. Anxiety or irritability
0 Pupils pinned or normal size for room light 0 None
1 Pupils possibly larger than normal for room light 1 Patient reports increasing irritability or
anxiousness
2 Pupils moderately dilated 2 Patient obviously irritable, anxious
5 Pupils so dilated that only the rim of the iris is visible 4 Patient so irritable or anxious that
participation in the assessment is difficult
5. Bone or joint aches: if patient was having pain
previously, only the additional component attributed to
opiate withdrawal is scored. 11. Gooseflesh skin
0 Not present 0 Skin is smooth
1 Mild diffuse discomfort 3 Piloerection of skin can be felt or hairs
standing up on arms
2 Patient reports severe diffuse aching of joints/muscles 5 Prominent piloerection
4 Patient is rubbing joints or muscles and is unable to sit
still because of discomfort
6. Runny nose or tearing: not accounted for by cold
symptoms or allergies
Tottall Sccorre:: ____________________
0 Not present [The total score is the sum of all 11 items.]
1 Nasal stuffiness or unusually moist eyes Initials of person completing assessment: ____
2 Nose running or tearing
4 Nose constantly running or tears streaming down
cheeks
Score: 5–12=Mild; 13–24=Moderate; 25–36=Moderately severe; >36=Severe withdrawal
Source: Adapted from Wesson et al. 1999. Reprinted with permission.
112 Assessment and Screening Instruments
DRAFT
Guidelines for the Use of Buprenorphine in the Treatment of Opioid Addiction April 23, 2004
BUPRENORPHINE TIP: CONTENT CLEARANCE DRAFT
Objective Opiate Withdrawal Scale (OOWS)
Instructions: Rate the patient on the basis of what you observe during a timed 10-minute
period.
Item
Score 1 Point For
Each Item If: Points
1 Yawning (3 or more yawns in 10 minutes) Present
2 Rhinorrhea Present
3 Piloerection (observe the patient’s arm or chest) Present
4 Perspiration Present
5 Lacrimation Present
6 Mydriasis Present
7 Tremors (hands) Present
8 Hot and cold flashes (shivering or huddling for warmth) Present
9 Restlessness (frequent shifts of position) Present
10 Vomiting Present
11 Muscle twitches Present
12 Abdominal cramps (holding stomach) Present
13 Anxiety (observable manifestations: finger tapping,
fidgeting, agitation)
Present
TOTAL OOWS score (Sum items 1–13)
The Objective Opiate Withdrawal Scale (OOWS) is completed by an observer who notes the
presence of 13 physically observable signs. The total score is the sum of the number of signs
present during a 10-minute observation period.

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Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

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 Post subject: T.Y
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:52 pm 
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THANKS Chinagirl for all the simple tips for making things more comfortable physically even if its for the 30 to 50 hrs i'll be waiting to induct, I definately don't have enough time to kick and detox all together to reach tottal sobriety, though it passes thru my hopes and dreams of never having to depend on something chemically it is in reality exactly how i described " A DREAM". This past 2 years or so that ive been on suboxone has been in alot of ways resembled previous failed suboxone treatments, and its not like i dont know why! I haven't stuck to the things i know work for me, not all at once but gradually other things started to take the place of what provided these things in the first place, the classic reason u know for a slip. I would also like to that u suboxowned for your advice and outlook concerning my DR. Its been on my mind for a long time now and ive come to the conclusion theres no way in HELL I am telling her, NO WAY! because if she takes that script from me I'm all done, The area I'm from has really just got into widespread use of the drug around here and everyone and there mama wants a script so point is that it takes time, anywhere from 1-3 months. I feel like i have yet another chance at life! Because today i called my Dr and was able to successfully change my appointment to next Thurs. So I have 1 week to get back on my subs and have a clean urine. Does anyone know how long zanex last in your urine/system?? Suboxowned i DIG the way u compared it too the program of NA, I too attend 12 step groups and do not share that I'm on subs. On the other hand i never really get my chips,coins, or keychains for lengths of sobriety because though I am not poking myself, or banging ocs etc, I still am on a mind-altering drug which i must chemically depend on. Maybe i should look at it a little different, I mean dont get me wrong I think you should be able to get those chips if u so choose and CONGRATS!!! I sincerly mean that, its just i hope to have tottal sobriety one day, that could be 2 yrs from now, could take 10 yrs, could never happen and i could be on a maintenence system for the rest of my moons, but its a hope and desire. Last but not least thanks Jackcrack, I kinda knew the whole time about the COW scale and also knew it was all about how far into your withdrawl u are opposed to length of time, I just get so sick when Im in the momment espeacially if its at night time, Im either in a hot shower burning the shit out of myself to feel something other than my RLS, or clenched up in a tight ball straining and constricting my muscles just to make it thru to the next minite, so i have always seriously doubted how actually honest i could be with myself....Its just really weird and freakish, Because over the past few months ive been noticing minor changes of the effect in my suboxone, specifically its effectiveness and i am amoung i would say 15 people that i know of in the area who have said the same thing. I have induced hundreds of times over the past 2 years which i am shamed for!!! beleive me, but its been just such a shocker and confusing, because i was kicking, eyes dialated, sweaty palmed,High blood pressure,increased pulse,goosebumps, and o yes RLS not so badd but badd enough. That was 18 hrs after my laast shot, from a 3 gram a day habit. I took just a quarter sub. because i was nervous it may still be cutting it close, it helped for about 20min, i thought i was home free, and theb BAM!!!! about 20 25 min later i felt it slowly creep back and then got more intense then i ever thought possable for the next 7 to 8 hrs, i took over 30 more milligrams and i did nothing but seem to make things worse!!! I didnt feel comfortable until probably 12 hrs later, the intensity died down 5-7 hrs into it if i can remember correctly. But i will try that, I got some Zanex for my anxiety, IM gonna grab some Calcium magnesium, Zinc for the RLS, ive never tried it but heard the right dosage can actually be a lifesaver and im all for trying it!!! And finally i have u guys.....I cant say how much of a help this site has been, Its given me so much, and i hope to return the favor one day. I hope everone can read this and truly feel my pain and that its not worth picking up no matter what! Im 30 yrs old and i have hardly any veins left that i cn hit, it take forever and most recently have just said fuck it, MUSCLE SHOT!!!! thats sick and wearing longsleeves no matter what, I cant even bend my arms, hoping every morning the swelling went down and they feel a lil better, i mean ive waited as long as almost 3 wks before with a absess or whatever it was, it fuckin hurt! it was radiating heat, it was red,o and did i say it hurt! Its just sick what this addiction puts r bodies thru. That was by far the worst decision i ever made was to stick that needle in my arm...I mean addiction is addiction,drug ia a drug is a drug and all that but when u decide to go IV druguser and u do make that intial choice...its a whole new monster inside the monster. So i havent decided the exact day but i need to know how long the zanex stay in your urine, and i need a few other things to prepare but its looking like either tommorrow or sunday evening....ill keep everyone posted


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:27 pm 
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I am no expert but I doubt xanax will stay in your system much longer than about 72 hours max. Again.....no expert. I took a xanax and know for sure I didn't test positive for it 5-6 days later....but I was also in a position where I could be honest with the dr that I took it too. So it didn't matter.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Hey Danny, hang in there brother....we all know that you can't see the sun, until you move a few clouds. WD suck's, SUCK'S BAD, but it will be worth it "TEN FOLD" in the end. If quiting "H" was easy, everyone would do it...LOL I agree with everyone else, it's not worth telling your Doctor, and getting booted from the program. Be careful mixing benzo's with sub (I know you know this), but they might help chill you out long enough, to get back on the box's. Just stay strong bro, we're all behind you! PEACE


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:21 pm 
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I hope you are doing okay. I too have gone through Precipitated WD's a few times, trying to switch to sub myself. It was hell. And I ended up going out and wasting a bunch of money and hope. I was so scared that suboxone would never work but it did....I just had to be very uncomfortable for a whole day...ugh. SO GLAD I stuck through that day. man was I sick...I had a bad kidney infection with fever the same day. Today is 3 months! I was also shooting H daily and I started to have no good veins....so frustrating. I wish you the best brother

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