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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:16 pm 
Hi BB! Hope you're having a good day. Just to clarify some of my comments about PAWS and to answer your question about whether some people experience PAWS while on or because of buprenorphine. First of all, I'm not a doctor, of course, and not an expert in any way. All I can speak to is what my experiences have been and what I have read regarding the experiences of others. I do not think it to be the norm for people on bupe to experience PAWS. That would be sort of contrary to how the medication works. After all, the medication occupies the opiate receptors quite similarly to what our former drugs of choice did, hence the cessation of w/d symptoms and abatement of cravings. Therefore, I would have to deduce that if one's receptors are adequately saturated, one would not really be able to experience PAWS in its true sense, as PAWS are a set of symptoms that commonly occur after one has gotten through the acute phase of withdrawals. Key point being that "if one's receptors are adequately saturated." Well, that to me means that if you're above the 'ceiling dose' you should be symptom free, comfortable, not experiencing any withdrawals, etc.
That being the case, my question has always been, that once we get below the ceiling level, is it possible then to begin to experience some withdrawal symptoms, followed by some PAWS symptoms as we continue to decrease? I think it's pretty clear about w/d symptoms.....most anyone will tell you that they do have some mild to moderate w/d when they are decreasing their Suboxone dose especially after getting under 4 mg/day or so. As far as PAWS symptoms, it seems less clear. In my experience, as I have been at or under 4mg/day for a long time, I have certainly felt some of the depressed moods, low motivation, and other mood issues the lower I've gotten on my dose. Technically, since I am still getting a steady stream of partial agonist opiate into my system every day, albeit a smaller amount, it should stand to reason that I could not be experiencing PAWS. But, in my experience, I feel an awful lot like I did when I had PAWS before! Obviously these are subjective symptoms and I can only speak for myself. Of course, past experiences can skew current ones. But I must say that when I quit full-agonists cold-turkey, I truly had little to NO expectations of what I was in for. I certainly was NOT expecting problems months and months after quitting. What I experienced in terms of PAWS symptoms was very real and not at all dramatized or overblown by expecting the worst. If anything, I think it caught me more off guard because I had never had any history of psychological problems before....no depression, anxiety, nothing like that. I found PAWS to be nearly debilitating and I had a lot of cravings because of it.....I just desperately wanted to feel better.
Okay, having said all that!.....The reason I brought it up initially was because your posts about how you felt on Suboxone reminded me an awful lot of how I felt with PAWS. I found that so curious. And you're certainly not the first person who has posted similar experiences with it. As I have said before, I do think everyone is different and can respond to drugs differently. I also think that our experiences with bupe can change over time. I know for me, the initial few months on it I felt fantastic, new lease on life, full of hope, etc! After that, while I still believe strongly in the drug, I could certainly see things begin to change a bit. Now, it's important to know, too, that I've steadily been tapering almost the entire time I've been on it which I'm sure plays a role in how I've responded to the drug. For me, it's been a lifesaver. I don't think I'd be doing well at all had I not started it. But it is more difficult to stop than I expected. I still am confident I'll get it done and I have no problem staying on it for as long as it takes to stop it with relative ease. I have not experienced any real troublesome side effects either. I just know I don't desire to stay on it forever.
Well, that went off a bit, as usual! Anyway.......I just thought your particular set of problems which led you to want off Suboxone, mirrored the way I felt in PAWS. Why would that be? I have no idea. While I can't really wrap my mind around your issues being because of Suboxone, just because it doesn't make sense scientifically, there is no disputing one's own experiences and I believe what you have posted is real. My theory, for me, is that by gradually reducing my dose over a long period of time, I may experience a milder form of PAWS-like symptoms while reducing and by doing so, will avoid the long, drawn-out PAWS that I had before. That's where I'm at.
So I am indeed curious to see how you do over time here. I'm real impressed that you've made it this far going cold-turkey off a pretty high dose. That couldn't have been easy for you! Good job! I hope the worst is long overwith and that each day brings more improvement. Please keep me posted on how you do in terms of your moods and motivation. So curious about that! Thank you again for sharing your experiences!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Well, I've finally caught up on everything. What I can't understand, and I know this has been beaten to death in my short absence (work has been very busy, but in a good way) is why anyone would jump off suboxone at such a high dose, but ok, you jumped, so I guess you have to deal now. I guess the only advice I can offer as someone who has quit opiates cold turkey so many times I have lost count is to just try to hang in there, eventually your body will adjust and you'll feel better.

I hope you can pull this off. I wish you nothing but the best. But I do wonder, like some others, if you're just putting yourself through something very difficult unnecessarily.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:11 pm 
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Junkie- Maybe you didn't get down to the end of it, it's a lot of reading. But, yes, I'm hanging in very well at this point, I feel pretty good. I still have some mild leg pains and some sweating issues but otherwise I'm relieved it went this well. i

Maybe it's my adderall, I wasn't on adderall during the first time I quit when I couldn't get through it. I mean obviously, dopamine has a big part in all this and I know adderall controls dopamine, to some degree, so maybe that's why I haven't had the mentally challenging side effects that drove me back to the subs last time. I don't know.


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 Post subject: Day 13
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:24 pm 
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DAY: 13

I'm having issues today, I think some of them are because I've been taking my lyrica at a high dose and I def don't think it was a good idea. However, last night I slept soooo good. My husband was making brownies and we were going to eat them hot out of the oven with ice cream and I was really looking forward to it, I went into my room for something and thought I would just lye down for a minute, it was about 11 p.m and I woke up at 10 am this morning! That's awesome for me. But I did wake up feeling really tired, I'm not sure why but I've been dragging around a lot today, I have had fibromyalgia since I was in my 20's and my knees hurt really bad, anyone who has it will know what kind of pain that is, I'm basically having a flare up from my fibro and it sucks.
On the bright side, my stomach issues are completely gone and my acne has cleared up :)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:51 pm 
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Hello Beautiful,

I am so glad your feeling good, I have been thinking alot about you and praying that your doing well! You give me so much hope that this is possiable and that when I am ready things just might be ok. I seem to be doing ok on 8mgs and I am thinking I might be ready to try 7mgs soon, but I don't want to mess with things just yet because for the first time in years things seem good. Not that things are great I still have cravings a lot but I am dealing with them better now. I just got a car a used one but its mine!

As far as the tiredness I guess I would imagine its normal but when I start feeling tired and unmotivated I really try to forse myself to something productive or just get outside and go for a walk and try to do something and usually feel better. Anyway I am so proud of you and please keep posting and letting us no how things are going!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Hancal106,
Your so kind to think of me, it's the people like you, struggling like me, that make this forum a place where I feel understood :D
I did get outside today, took my daughter shopping for school clothes, went to our rental property and helped my husband fix some stuff and took my daughter to her open house. That's a lot for me, especially since I spend most of my days watching tv and sitting in front of this stupid laptop. I feel really good today too. Idk what makes the difference from day to day, I can only say that I feel good right now. I'm sure your right, it's getting moving that helps tremendously, I can feel the difference when I get out and when I don't. My fibro flare up is not bugging me today. yeah! I can't complain about any aching body part, my mood is great. I can honestly say that I feel better today than any days past.

IMO, if it aint broke don't fix it, just my L.A (Lower Alabama) knowledge ha ha. I'm sure you've heard it over and over but for whatever it's worth I totally support you for staying right where your at. Your feeling good, you just got a car! All is well so live it up!
Idk what I would have done if all had been well for me on sub, I probably would have stayed on it forever for fear of screwing up what was working so well.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:42 pm 
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BB,
I have not commented on any of your posts but I ha e been reading them all and I feel like I know you from your good decriptive writing throughout your journey the past couple of weeks. I can almost picture your house and your daughter in my mind. To be honest, when you first started to post I felt a little defensive about suboxone use. When something works so well for you and someone else does not have the same to say I immediately want to debate. It's a knee jerk reaction. Over the past couple of weeks I find myself really rooting for you and I'm almost certain you will make it through this. I to, like junkie, can't see why anyone would stop at that dose but we are all different and in different places in our lives. With all my heart I hope you make it.

One thing that keeps worrying me about you and your situation is the other meds you have mentioned. Whenever I see ambien or Valium and adderall in the same story I worry. Pleas don't take this as questioning your behavior or your legitamacy for being on those meds. That particular combination was a big problem for me for years. I felt like Elvis for a while, taking things to bring me up then taking things to bring me down at the end of the day. Again iam not saying that is what your doing but that cycle will always end with a major crash. It's artificial energy and artificial rest. Those years really did alot of damage to my system and sometimes I feel that the insomnia I suffer from today is because of years of that cycle. Please don't take this as any kind of attack or questioning your reasons for take such meds. I just worry and like I've said a few times already I am rooting for you. God bless and please keep us posted.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:28 am 
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Smoothy,
Thanks for commenting, I'm glad you did.
You know, the funny thing is, I didn't realize I was giving anyone a reason to feel they needed to defend suboxone, but I did feel quickly ambushed for my rather opinionated posts. What I felt was that my opinions weren't welcomed unless they were that of the majority. I just wanted to say how I felt, what my life had been like but it didn't go so well. Just so you know, I took subs for a year 1/2 and I wouldn't change it, none of it. I don't think anybody should quit before their ready and I think we all know when we are. It all happened in one day for me, started with, I'm going to begin a taper today :) and ended with I'm going cold turkey today! lol
I was having a really hard time with the subs, a really hard time. It was causing me a great deal of depression and every side effect possible, I hated it, I was so depressed I just wanted help but instead I kept reading all this stuff, like from that subox dr or whatever, "Yea, everyone just wants to blame all their problems on sub! AND that wasn't it at all, It made me feel like nobody believed my depression or cared and while a lot of the regulars here def got upset about it, I don't think they ever thought about how I was feeling.
Whoa is me...haha. I swear I'm not feeling sorry for myself.
The point is, THANK YOU, for posting, It feels good to know you care. It feels REALLY good that not only are my kids going back to school next week but get this...so is my husband!!!! YES!!!!!!! TIME ALONE AGAIN! Whatever will I do with myself? Regain control of the remote that one thing! and put the AC on 74 for the LAST time! Good grief Ladies is it ever harder to clean a house then when all the kids plus the husband is in it??? NOPE!
Have a great morning everyone! My youngest has an appt to see his CF doctor so hope all goes well, I love my little boppy :)
NITE

Yes, my adderall, you probably won't believe this, but as a child I was diagnosed with ADD, I know, SHOCKED aren't you haha. I've been managing it since hummmmm third grade and I'm 35, looonnnnngggg time. As long as I've had it, I've never once abused it, it works great for me at just the rate my doctor prescribes so I'm not the least bit worried about my adderall, I've always heard that for people whom have ADD the effect is different than for someone who doesn't. I take my first dose in the am and my second dose around 3-5pm I concentrate really well, otherwise I can't get stuff done, my mind will start one thing, walk away, pick up half way through something else, go back to something else, it will make a sane person CRAZY! I'd rather be crazy on my meds than crazy off lol From them I get exactly what I want, concentration!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:34 pm 
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Very bad night last night, very good day today..
Ugh, I tossed and turned, my legs were bothering me, not a horrible pain like it was initially but it doesn't feel good or calming that's for sure. I hate the insomnia! and I HATE the leg aches, idk what to call it, I guess it's still RLS, but it doesn't feel so much restless as just a mild constant ache and it's always at night but not every night. I took two bathes, one before I attempted sleep and one between 2-3 a.m. I previously stopped taking Lyrica because I thought it was making me feel drowsy during the day but I noticed I was able to sleep at night when I was on it and when I took it at 3 a.m I finally fell asleep an hour later, so tonight, I've already taken my Lyrica and I'm hoping I get some sleep.
Amazingly, even though I had a really bad night, I had a really good day. So, I'm still having a couple of lingering symptoms of w/d, one is insomnia the other is leg aching. Neither are bad enough to make me give a moments thought to returning to subs or my old opiate addiction, I'm happy to report.


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