Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:37 am
To continue with Slipper's optimism, you could stretch what you have left and try to make it. Yes, it's optimistic, but remember recently how someone on the forum wasn't expecting withdrawals and ended up barely having any? So much of it is mental and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now I'm not saying there aren't any physical withdrawals, obviously there are. But we expect it to be bad and the result is the worse it becomes.
You have a large amount of bupe stacked up in your system. I wouldn't take any for a few days until the w/d hits. Then I'd take the absolute MINIMUM you need to get you out of w/d. It might only take 2 mg. Give it a shot! Then I'd continue taking the bare minimum. Maybe, just maybe, you can last until Wednesday? Like I said, yes, it's optimistic, but perhaps it's also possible?
As for hating being dependent on a medication, I just don't have the same feeling. Maybe because I take so many other meds and I always have to plan to pick them up on a regular basis, and I tend to do that with all of them. Plus I have a huge backstock of sub, so I never have to worry about running out. I know a lot of people simply can't do that and I understand that makes me pretty lucky.
I really hope you don't end up in a situation where you have to jump from a high dose. Keep us posted.
Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:09 am
I am sorry tear, you have been a model patient for some time. I would think your pharmacy would give you a break on Wed. You say if you miss 4 pick ups you are kicked out, but this situation is different. Because of the holidays the pharmacy is closed so you were getting 4 doses at once. I would think they mean not showing up 4 times, and you just missed one. I hope their logic is the same as mine.
The only thing I can think of is maybe transfering your script? I am not sure how it works there but in the U.S. if your script is at a chain like Walgreens than any Walgreens has your script and you can get it at any of them any time. Like I said this is just a shot in the dark but the only thing I can think of.
Don't worry too much, you have enough to get thru and I think the pharmacy will let you pick up on Wed. I am sorry this has affected your Christmas plans and hope it all works out for you!
Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:52 pm
Re the pharmacy. I'm regretting it now, but the moment she said she'd left the pharmacy (even though she'd picked up the pharmacy phone) I cracked it and said "well I guess I'll just go score some heroin then"... I dunno why I said it, maybe to guilt her a bit for telling me she wasn't there.
In hindsight, it probably won't help my case.
Anyway, I had 2mg lastnight and woke up with some mild-withdrawal. Just mild aches and some yawning. Nothing too bad. I should be able to get through Xmas. I'm going to have 4mg in the morning, then 2mg and a valium at night to keep me asleep.
Unfortunately because I burn through Subox so fast, I never have much stacked in me. It usually only takes me 24-36 hours for withdrawals to start showing up.
Merry Christmas to all. I'm gunna try make the best of it as I'm still in recovery... and it's Christmas. It shouldn't be too bad.
Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:58 pm
Hey Tearjerker, I'm sorry you are in this position and I sure can understand your anxiety about it. But I too hope that the program will see it as you missed only ONE time (and only by a minute at that) rather than counting every dose during the period the pharmacy is closed. After all--what could you have done differently once you missed that closing time that one day? But here you are not knowing what will happen after the holidays. I agree that you should try to take as little as possible and stretch it out...like Hat suggested, if I were you I would try to wait until at least the beginnings of the WD start in before dosing, each time. And...you might be surprised at how little sub it really takes to stave off the WD. I hope so anyway. In the meantime...I hope you'll keep us posted. Whatever happens, NOT relapsing will be the accomplishment you seek. As for the longterm, honestly, I think you should worry about one thing at a time for now...get through the holidays as best you can and then see. I think most(but certainly not all) people do hope they can eventually discontinue sub treatment and be ok without it..but...as you know, almost everyone reports best results from tapering slowly down to a very low dose before jumping off. And also...best to wait until we are really feeling stable with our addiction in remission. Otherwise...well, you know the risks of relapse as well as I do. I don't know how much it helps, but you know everyone here is rooting for you. I sure am anyway. As for what you said to the pharmacist, well, it's regrettable sure, but you were upset. There's nothing you can do about it now so try to let go of it. The pharmacist hopefully won't hold onto it either. It was just s dumb thing you said by mistake when you were upset and really doesn't mean anything now. The important thin is you DIDN'T go out to cop gear. If I had a dollar for every time I've said something I regretted after...well, you know how it goes. We all mis-speak ourselves on occasion. Anyway, I wish you luck and I'll be checking back to see how things turn out for you when the pharmacies and your program re-open and all.
Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:00 pm
Ouch. I wish I had more time to write up a suitable reply but I suggest
1. Is codeine OTC where you live? Once you run out it may help stave off withdrawals and detox.
2. Try ordering kratom
3. Is loperamide (Immodium for us in the USA) OTC where you live? I couldnt believe it at first but people swear by it.
If I were you I would jump down to 1-2 mgs/day immediately. Then use the rest of your sub to taper further.
I hope you can get back on the program, I sincerely do.
Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:17 pm
Try poppyseeds, if it gets bad, shake 200 300gms with warm water in a plastic bottle, then sqeeze thru the loosened top.
Done that many times, to cover W.D., dark black/blue seeds with rich smell.
The ones I've seen in the spice rack of late, look pretty good.
Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:26 pm
So bummed for you Tear. I know you will make sence of all this once this mess is behind you.. Right now, you have lots of great advise from all these wonderful supportive forum members. DO the best thing you can for yourself. Then, fingers & toes crossed, that by Wednesday, you WILL be able to get your meds. Hang in there Tear....
Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:30 am
It hasn't gotten to the stage of requiring other opioids as yet. It's not at that point.
What's annoying about being an ultra rapid metaboliser with buprenorphine, is the moment that the moment I drop below the dose I need to hold me, it doesn't take long at all to feel withdrawals.
ie - I had 2mg lastnight instead of the usual 6mg. At 4am I woke up with my legs kickin around a bit. It wasn't too bad, but was uncomfortable. Funny thing is, I normally find it hard to get up at 9am unless I really have to! On my regular dose, I find it hard to wake up at all sometimes! Was good to be an early bird.
Anyway, this morning I had 3mg instead of the usual 6mg at 9AM. It kicked in and I felt *FINE* .. phew. By 1pm I was starting to get the aches again. Just 4 hours! Off 4MG's! Wtf? Bummer. Why do I burn through this drug so fast? It seems like my 6mg morning 6mg evening dose was *just* enough to get me through. This brings concerning questions for when I taper, given I burn through it so fast. I may need hourly dosing or some shit.
Anyway, I had 2.5mg diazepam, and I hate benzos. But it took the edge off the muscle cramps and now I can carry on with another Christmas event. Ibuprofen also really helps with the aches. I am taking a bit more out of my reserves today, because it's Christmas, and I don't wanna be all fidgety and zoned out over turkey and ham.
No need for loperamide or poppy pods, or Oxycontin I don't think. But will re-assess if I'm kicked off the program. I'm going to put a note under the pharmacy door now explaining my situation so they can be more accommodating (hopefully).
Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:33 am
Just wanted to say I'm thinking of you today, Tear and hoping you're making it through all right. Merry Christmas!
Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:17 am
Thanks Hatmaker. I really appreciate everyone's kind thoughts.
I'm pushing on, but it's not getting as pretty. My plan was to have 4mg in the morning to get me through the day, then 2mg in the evening + 5mg Diazepam to get me through the night. Lastnight, after having my Diazepam first, in the fog I took 4mg of Suboxone instead of 2mg. I remember having a really easy sleep with little interruption, waking up thinking bONUS! When I look at my pills, and went... "uh oh".. Giving I was feeling okay still, I cut out my morning dose ocmpletely and ran the gauntlet for the evening.
It started out quite well, but first came the muscle aches, then the restless legs. But the most annoying thing was, because it reminded me of what it feels like to withdrawal from Buprenorphine, was that anxious emptiness I associate with Bupe detox moreso than methoin / methadone. It does play into depression a bit more. Anyway so I'm pushing on through the day just keeping busy, sweating a bit and being achy, trying not to talk about it. But I wasn't eating much at all. I had a banana for breakfast, then just before I had a sustagen box-drink. After 30 minutes it came up, which isn't a good sign at all.
Anyway, I'm going to get home have my evening 2mg + diazepam, then it'll be one more day before I can see the chemist, then it'll be the big day! If they won't have me back, I'll be screwed. Inpatient detoxes won't have new admits until after 5th NYE, my "other" prescribing doctor re-opens January 2nd... and the State Authority that authorises new prescriptions once someone's been kicked off the program is on holidays until January 9th, when I'm meant to be diving the Reef!
What a stuff up. If this screws my holiday, I'm not going to be happy one bit. It was 2 minutes!!!
The reason this has been a "wake up" call for me is it's been a reminder how much I'm my functioning is reliant on a drug made in a factory by a thousands of miles away by few guys in lab coats. If for some reason the supply got cut off (in my case, at the pharmacy end), I'd have a forced detox, whether I like it or not. It's easy to forget how dependent we are on this drug when we have a safe supply every day.
It has definitely reaffirmed my desire to get off Suboxone, as I can't afford for these things to happen, especially not at times like these. It really does impede my quality of life, being tied down to a pharmacy and their opening/closing hours.
Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:34 am
Yeah, your situation is different; it's way more restrictive than it is for us. You are constrained by having to go to a pharmacy in hours they set for you to abide by. And see, that does suck. What happens if you have to get emergency care for an injury or illness? Is that considered a missed dose, too?
So I do understand where you're coming from much more now. I hadn't thought out the particulars of your specific circumstances. I don't know if I could do a treatment that requires jumping through so many hoops for so longgggggg. So I do hear your frustration and your desire to end your treatment or maybe I should say move on to the next phase.
I really hope all goes well on Wednesday and that they'll be reasonable adults and not judgmental fucks. Let us know when you're able.
Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:07 am
hatmaker510 wrote:Yeah, your situation is different; it's way more restrictive than it is for us. You are constrained by having to go to a pharmacy in hours they set for you to abide by. And see, that does suck. What happens if you have to get emergency care for an injury or illness? Is that considered a missed dose, too?
Yeah. Our pharmacy certainly does become our 2nd home, at least until we get given a decent number of take-aways. It makes MMT / Maintenance Suboxone really difficult if someone wants to travel interstate regularly, or have a career that requires travel, or soo many things! Being 28, and studying to get into a career with lots of opportunities... I'm not going to be tied down to that dognamed little place.
I remember reading people often say "try and find Suboxone" off the street in situations like mine. I decided to give this a try to bump my dose back up. I called up a couple of people However, there is hardly any Suboxone being traded out there on the street. Because of the pharmacy setup, there just isn't any surplus Suboxone floating around to be sold. And I don't understand why people (other than in my situation) would want to buy it. One of the guys found the idea hilarious. "Why would you wanna buy Suboxone? Heroin's the easiest drug to score in this city!" (sadly, he's right - easier than marijuana, easier than alcohol if you're underage).
Anyway, I just had 2mg Subox + a Diazepam before bed, which has taken the edge off, now about to go to bed. I was afraid at how tempted I became to use because of this situation. Having a big dose reduction inflicted on myself brings on cravings, let alone with all the stress surrounding Xmas.
Worst of all, these DRAMAS feel no different to that while I was in active addiction. Worry about will I have enough, and I can do to get enough, that I would have enough to get me through Christmas. I was obsessing over Suboxone just like I would have heroin. And in my problem solving, if I couldn't find Suboxone, I was prepared to take Oxycontin (I've never actually had it before, being a heroin snob) should all else fail until I could see my doctor. I figured it would be a lesser evil to heroin.
It's also made me wonder what I would do if my supply of buprenorphine were threatened because of global/socio/political reasons? Medication shortages are quite common. In our case being on Suboxone, we have the added issue of being an extremely low priority. Suboxone for drug addicts is also a very political issue, and it wouldn't take much for an really conservative and ignorant senator to push for the drug to be outlawed as it keeps addicts hooked. I was watching a doco about WW2 a coupla nights ago and the kinda shortages the UK had to endure every day. If addicts were given methadone then, they certainly woulda been forced into a detox.
Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:08 am
I wouldn't go down the Oxycontin route. The half life is really fucking short. You will have to dose more than once per day. High-wise, it's the same as dope (so don't kid yourself that it's better). If youre gonna get back on full-ags, I'd go with dope. Much cheaper and you can dose once per day without getting too sick. Seriously..you'll regret paying so much $ for Oxycontin. If you're used to dope you will find it extremely weak. And it's NOT a lesser evil. I live in Broward County FL (google it, we are famous for our pill-mills) and I am here to tell you that Oxy will kill you just as fast as heroin. The ONLY difference between the two is price and potency (and half-life). They'll both Have the power to kill you fast.
I really hope they let you back in the program.
I have the same fear you are facing now: suddenly being forced off Sub for some ridiculous reason I have no control over. This is one of the reasons I am always touting low-dose bupe. A forced detox from 1 mg/day is probably much easier than from 4-6 mg/day. People need to pay serious attention to this story, no matter where they live. I heard about someone getting thrown off their Sub program for a false positive on a urine test! Just because many of us are in the US and not Aussieland, and we get monthly scripts here..any of us could still be cut off anytime for bullshit.
Being on Sub IS still being tied to a bottle, no matter how much we wanna deny it. I relate to what you're saying about that. We run out of Sub and in hours we can be transformed right back into junkydom.
This could happen to anyone.
P.S. Tear, I hope you aren't considering going back to dope, even if you get dropped from the program. Maybe there are other Sub docs. Maybe you can buy a small amount of dope and have your gf hide it from you and dole it out, just to detox. You've come a long way since you were a dope fiend, I'm sure. A month from now you'd rather have sat through bupe detox than be back on junk.
Last edited by Ironic on Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:54 am
You just scared the crap out of me when you mentioned you were considering Oxy, but had never done it before. OxyContin comes in several different strengths, from 10mg up to 80mg. I was on 20mg for a good while then got bumped up to 40mg and that 40mg OC kicked my ass thoroughly. It's strong shit man.
This is going to sound utterly ridiculous, but if it were up to me, I'd rather see you do junk. You know how junk hits you, you're familiar with it.
I remember clearly how it sucks to be tied to a medication. I've taken medications at different times during my life and never have I been scared shitless to run out. Never have I felt the need to build up a stock pile of medication, but all that changed when I started using opiates.
BTW, I wonder what would have happened if you were going in to pick up your Insulin and you were 1 minute late?? Do you think the pharmacist would have disappeared on ya?
Hopefully, you're able to get your pharmacist to take care of you Wednesday and everything smooths out for ya. That would be a perfect ending to this Holiday Nightmare of yours.
Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:51 pm
holiday and one minute late tear'. thats all it is
they would have to be in human to bump a good patient off like that. you have nothing to worry about. but hang on your suboxone is good for you" you need it! just because you were 1 minute late.
don't risk going on the rocky'er road
Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:42 pm
Yeah, Tear, I agree with Johnny that they would be inhuman to kick you out of the program for this. but I sure understand that you are anxious. And yeah, your situation with the rules in your country do make it harder to comply with treatment--I don't know if I could (or would) be on sub if I had to go out to get my dose every day. As for the long term--you are still relatively young and there's plenty of time for you to think aobut getting off sub if you want to. I can see how this is like a wake-up call for sure, that has made you feel insecure and vulnerable to having your medication cutoff unexpectedly...since that is exactly what just happened to you (hopefully only temporarily though) but....I don't think it means you have to be in a rush to get off sub right now, assuming, of course, that you don't have a problem continuing on your program once everything re-opens after the holidays. From what you've reported, I know this isn't easy, but it really sounds like you are doing relatively well under the circumstances, this didn't completely ruin your Christmas I hope, and I hope it doesn't ruin your upcoming holiday either. what's most impressive is that it sounds like you are really NOT considering resorting to other opiates to get through. I hope you won't end up doing that, whatever happens, although, I think you know that I've got absolutely no interest judging anyone for any kind of relapse for any reason (or lack of reason). Anyway, I mostly just want you to know that I'm following your thread here and hoping all turns out well for you. And by the way, I've been really impressed at how well you've taken to being a moderator. The forum really needed more mods before and I was happy when you accepted the position. so thanks for that. anyway, I'll be checking back to look for your updates on this thread. I hope you're doing ok today.
Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:27 pm
Tear, I hope it works out for you. It makes me think too about being so dependent on this. I like you go through it very quick. I hope your dosing goes back to normal Wednesday. Sure hope you do not need anything else. It sucks to have to be thinking that way. That life is miserable.
Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:37 am
Thank you all so much for your support. It's good to see people rally behind each other in times like these.
It might be irrelevant, but I'm no longer taking the Valium, as my girlfriend had some Rivotril lying around and Valium is a real nasty benzo for me to come-off. Why? I can't explain. So I'm taking small amounts of Rivotril - 1mg early afternoon, 1mg evening.
Benzos are a real double edged sword as a detox-assist medication. On the one hand, they do help with the physical / psychological cravings... but their careless effect makes me feel more blaze about the thought of using. Which is freaky considering before this episode how determined I was. I was more determined than... ever! Then this happened. It's probably a lesson I had to have. Maybe I was getting too confident? If it happened during a different time when I didn't have all these plans, I woulda just detoxed. But I'm freaked about missing this holiday. I put so much effort into planning it.
Where I'm at now? I had 4mg Subox really early this early morning while I was still in bed, then dozed off again with it left in my mouth. I do this sometimes when my dose isn't "holding me" as it lets me wake up fully withdrawal free. Anyway, woke up this morning and the aches were still there. It would have been 3-4 hours post dose, and I still had the taste in my mouth. Clearly my bupe levels are running on fumes.
Re the Oxycontin. The reason I was considering it over heroin was just the needle factor. I really don't want to desensitise myself to the whole injecting process again. I'm at a point where the thought seems really alien, and I don't wanna normalise it. It's a very addictive ritual. I thought with Oxy I'd just take 1 tablet, slow release, and it'd hold off my withdrawals for the day. But you guys will know better.
Re using Heroin to detox. I don't think it would work. I'm an IV heroin user. Using heroin any other way just *does not compute*. Injecting opioids, with its incredibly rapid onset and spike-in-levels, and its "rush", is really not condusive to recovery. Weening myself off buprenorphine by injecting heroin... at least for me... would be insane.
Anyway, I'm going to just take it easy today guys, rug up on the couch and make it out til tomorrow. Maybe do an agnostic prayer or two.
Take care and hope you've all had a happy non-denominational festive holiday season.
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