It is currently Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:00 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Ceiling effect question.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:36 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:44 pm
Posts: 65
If your ceiling level is say, 16mg, and you take another 8mg tablet, as you stay on course with your dosing schedule, I understand that you will not feel any different due to the ceiling effect. But what happens to the excess buprenorphine that is now in your body? As it goes through the bloodstream, and into your brain, it cannot attach to receptors since they are already filled, so does it just get flushed out of your body through your renal system? Thank you. Molly


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:56 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 88
Location: NWNJ
Everyones ceiling is roughly the same with this med and its around 4mg.Roughly anything over that will not give you any more of an opiate effect,wether you took 4 or 36 mg.I may be wrong but that is how I understood it to be.People need higher doses than that ,sometimes,to control cravings.

_________________
I just want to get the monkey off of my back for good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:00 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:44 pm
Posts: 65
I see what you are saying, and agree; I was just wondering what happens to the 'excess' suboxone that is in our bloodstream?

I myself take 24mg a day, but I'm also a chronic pain patient, due to spinal injuries. It's been amazing how it has helped my pain!


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:09 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 88
Location: NWNJ
I would assume that it gets obliterated by the liver.like any other med.

_________________
I just want to get the monkey off of my back for good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:33 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
It's not that anything over the ceiling isn't in our system. It's all still there and it's still part of the stacking effect, as far as I know and can explain. I'm sorry that I can't do much more than that. Perhaps if Dr. Junig sees this he'll respond. Or of course anyone else with the knowledge to explain a partial agonist chemically.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:21 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
I get a bit confused by the ceiling effect too. So I get that around 4mg is considered the ceiling and to not drop below it until your next dose you should take 6-8mg. My question is if you get no more effect after you hit the ceiling and your receptors are covered then how does a higher dose say above 8mg do anything more to control cravings? I am not saying I don't believe people should be on higher doses, I myself am on 16mg. I just don't understand how it helps if there is a ceiling, is it a placebo effect or something? Also I have said that I can feel my dose, not high but something and I take 8mg in the morning, 4mg mid day and 4mg evening and about 30-45min after I dose I feel it everytime, how could that be with the stacking effect I am SO far above the ceiling? I absolutely don't get it and if someone knows the answer I would really like to understand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:01 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 88
Location: NWNJ
I guess we are all different.I too thought about that question as far as cravings go.I too am on 16 mg and I dont feel anything after I dose,just normalcy.LOL.I did feel it in the early days of treatment but thats gone.What do you feel now? I secretly wish or wished I would get that rush in the mornings or that initial burst of energy.I dont feel that,in fact alot of times I wake up at 5:30 0r 6AM put the 2 8mg strips under my tongue and dose back off

_________________
I just want to get the monkey off of my back for good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:52 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
my doc believes the highest dose for cravings is 24mg and no higher. my doc also knows of doc Junig.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:01 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
It's definately not a rush or energetic feeling, it's more of a mellow feel, very relaxed and if I am not doing anything I feel it more. When I am busy I notice it less. But I definately get a mild mellow buzz and honestly it makes me a bit lazy. I wish I was like you and felt nothing.

I get that we are all different but what I don't understand is how that can be if they say everyone's ceiling is around 4mg. Is that not true or is there something else it does to our brains that could cause us to need different doses to get the same effect? I hope someone out there knows the answer because I sure don't and would like to.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:27 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
It's definately not a rush or energetic feeling, it's more of a mellow feel, very relaxed and if I am not doing anything I feel it more. When I am busy I notice it less. But I definately get a mild mellow buzz and honestly it makes me a bit lazy. I wish I was like you and felt nothing.

I get that we are all different but what I don't understand is how that can be if they say everyone's ceiling is around 4mg. Is that not true or is there something else it does to our brains that could cause us to need different doses to get the same effect? I hope someone out there knows the answer because I sure don't and would like to.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:17 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 47
Location: NY NY
I've always heard about the ceiling effect being at around 4 mg. Not to doubt that, but I would like to see some source material to confirm that fact some time. Everyone's brain is different, so there must be some variation among individuals. All I know is I feel much better on 16 mg versus 8 mg, and I've been on Suboxone exactly two years.

James


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:28 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
Hey guys -

Try this:

http://suboxonetalkzone.com/2010/04/24/ ... ng-effect/

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:54 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:59 pm
Posts: 1039
After watching the video, and going back to the original question, the ceiling effect is the level at which no more opiate effect is felt with an increasing dose. So if you stay above the ceiling you feel "normal" and don't feel any high when you dose or low when your dose starts to wear off. This isn't the same as having all the the receptors occupied. My doc said that at 16mg 94% of the receptors are bound. So, I guess for some addicts they really need all of their receptors bound to prevent cravings, and they might go to a dose above 16mg. On the other hand, some people don't have cravings at 4mg - for what ever reason they feel OK being at the ceiling level, but all of their receptors are not occupied. I kind of get the feeling that people need a higher dose when they first get off their DOC, and find that they can get by on a lower dose as time passes, but that's not true for everyone. Some folks start at a low dose, and some stay at higher dose for a long time. Everybody is different.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:15 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
Thanks for posting that Hat but it still doesn't explain why we need different doses above the ceiling to address cravings. Infact by what Dr. J says it makes even less sense to me. If we take 32 or 12mg we will still remain above the ceiling so taking more will have bo added effect. Which brings me back to is it a placebo effect? Does he have a video that explains how taking mre sub (above the ceiling) could stop cravings anymore than taking a lower dose say of 10mg. Hat thanks again for trying, I do apeciate it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:20 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
What about this one: http://www.youtube.com/user/SuboxDoc#p/ ... rqjJGoSQgc

I don't have time right now to watch it. Have you all checked out Dr. J's other site, addictionremission.com? It's kind of like his main site. It links to both the TalkZone and the forum and to his Youtube videos, too. It's a good site. If you haven't been to it, definitely check it out.

I hope this video helps.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:46 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
experience tell's it all". if any one truly believes it. every one is almost all way's adjusting to a new level. my med doc said 60mcrg is enough for pain. thats a little under 1 mg. and some are taking 15 to 34mg. but the ceiling effect- is 4mg. w/d is one of the side effects of suboxone. i believe you can have cravings and w/d over 16mgs and not be a side effect :? i wounder how doctors and patients worked out on this with methadone or morphine or what ever what were they'r levels like?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
It's the same video but thanks for trying Hat. I didn't know about that other site and have been checking it and his videos out but I can't find the answer to my question. Maybe he will see this and answer it. I believe it to be true because I know I felt better at 16mg than 12mg but I do not understand how it can be if the ceiling works the way they say it does. Thanks again Hat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:10 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2801
Location: Southwest
I don't really understand this subject at all when it comes to my experience. At 16mgs, if I took another 8 I would feel it. The feeling is a mild euphoria and feeling of well being just like Norco. In a good mood and all chatty.

Now I am at 1.50mgs, still have not had any cravings, and if I take say another 2 or 4mgs, the same euphoric feeling comes back. This was an issue for me the first year. I just couldn't keep any left over at the end of the month. The addictive behavior made me take more Sub than prescribed. And trust me, I wouldn't take it if it didn't make me feel wonderful.

So this ceiling thing means nothing to me. No cravings at 16mgs or 1.50mgs, and right now I'm supposedly under the ceiling and should be feeling some cravings, but I don't.

Maybe I'm just weird.

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:57 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:44 pm
Posts: 65
I take 24mg a day, three 8mg tablets. I have never ever felt any slight rush or feeling of euphoria at all, which was, okay, I'll say it, it was a let-down. :( Today is about day 23 for me, and I've felt no cravings I guess, but my situation is different. I cannot see to drive, and live wayyyy out in the country and so I have no opportunities to get my DOC, other than through my doctors, who all now know I'm on Suboxone, so therefore, why would they prescribe me my morphine and lortabs I loved/hated so much? I think what I DO miss is the routine of taking my meds, and of course, the euphoric feelings they gave me.

But I'll say one thing, the Suboxone has done miracles when it comes to taking care of my pain level! I used to be at a 7 or 8 every day just doing nothing (I do not work, disabled due to my blindness), and now my pain is sometimes down to a 1 or a 2! Amazing!! It was wwll worth my decision to stop the prescription meds I was taking so much of.

And did you guys know that there are Mu receptors in your intestines also? I didn't know that! Learned it on one of Dr. Junig's videos I watched yesterday. The opiates/opioids attach to those receptos and slow down your intestines; that is why a lot of people get constipated, and why, when you go through withdrawel, you have diarrhea. All of a sudden, those receptors are empty and your intestines go crazy. I had no idea!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Retraction
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:37 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2801
Location: Southwest
On an earlier post I stated that I don't experience cravings. That is true when it comes to my old doc. But my wife has a script for Xanax and for about half the month there is enough for her to give me one good dose every evening for about a week. And boy oh boy do I crave those little pills comin' my way.

So if I took more Sub, would that get rid of my craving for my daily dose of Xanax? I totally forgot about those and know that it is a problem with my recovery. When they aren't around I don't think about them. That's why I didn't remember that craving.

The thing is, I don't want to increase my Sub dose to eliminate my craving for a Benzo.

One more thing. My last doctor appt. I asked for an anti-depressant to help with my tapering. Maybe that will help with my cravings for Xanax. I think the reason I crave it is because it has a small amount of a SSRI in it so it makes me feel good, unlike say Valium. At least I'm pretty sure that's what I've read about it. Could be wrong on that one.

Thought I'd better get honest on this one.

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group