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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:26 pm 
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Is it necessary to stop the sub while having surgery ?

Has anyone stayed on it during surgery and come out ok ?


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 Post subject: Not all the same
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:40 am 
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Hi, I'm Queenie. Nice to meet you

I had 2 emergency surgeries while I was on Suboxone. I had Bypass grafts in my legs for Peripheal Artery Disease. I had blood clots in my legs that had to be removed right away. My doctor admitted me to the hospital. He knew I was on Subs. He put in an I.V. line & started meds. Dilaudid 2 mg. I was in pain. He upped it to 4 mg. He said the subs were not letting the meds work but I did feel some relief. I was given an Ambien with just a little sip of water & told I was having surgery at 9:00 a.m. the next day. I was in some discomfort but they gave me more Dilaudid in the morning.I had surgery. After that, the next 9 days I was in the hospital, I was on Morphine and then Percocet & Ambien. It worked fine. The meds controlled my pain completely. I have to admit, I was feeling the high. Especially when I came home and the Surgeon was generous with the Hydromorphone & Percocets scripts. I was getting high but, I knew the party had to end. I stopped and went back on subs.

Now, everyone is not the same and many in this forum will tell you that you must get off the subs for 2 or 3 days prior to surgery or you could get sick & the meds won't work either. Everyone's body is different on Subs. I'm just telling you my experience but please read around the forum for other people's stories about surgery on Subs and ultimately, talk to your doctor. He must know you are on Subs and he will work it out for you according to your situation.

Good luck & please let me know what happens. I am always curious because everyone has different experiences on Subs.

Love, Queenie


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:16 am 
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many in this forum will tell you that you must get off the subs for 2 or 3 days prior to surgery or you could get sick & the meds won't work either.


It is recommended to stop sub about 3 days before the surgery to help allow the pain meds to work. To be honest though, some people have had trouble getting adequate pain relief, even after stopping the sub. It just depends on the individual and how much sub they've been taking and for how long.

As for getting sick if you take pain meds without stopping the sub, that's simply not true. It's the opposite - if one has been taking full agonist opiates for a certain amount of time before starting sub, THEN you can get precipitated withdrawals, but NOT the other way around. Hope this makes sense.

I had a surgical procedure while on sub. I tapered down as low as possible before the surgery and stopped 2 days before. I was given pain meds afterward. I took more than the prescribed amount to offset the sub tolerance, but I, too, was able to get adequate pain relief. Like I said, though, not everyone does.

Hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:27 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
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many in this forum will tell you that you must get off the subs for 2 or 3 days prior to surgery or you could get sick & the meds won't work either.


It is recommended to stop sub about 3 days before the surgery to help allow the pain meds to work. To be honest though, some people have had trouble getting adequate pain relief, even after stopping the sub. It just depends on the individual and how much sub they've been taking and for how long.

As for getting sick if you take pain meds without stopping the sub, that's simply not true. It's the opposite - if one has been taking full agonist opiates for a certain amount of time before starting sub, THEN you can get precipitated withdrawals, but NOT the other way around. Hope this makes sense.

I had a surgical procedure while on sub. I tapered down as low as possible before the surgery and stopped 2 days before. I was given pain meds afterward. I took more than the prescribed amount to offset the sub tolerance, but I, too, was able to get adequate pain relief. Like I said, though, not everyone does.

Hope this helps.


So the main reason to go off the sub is to allow the pain meds to work (post-surgical)...anasthesia I understand is entirely different and will work even when your on sub.

My issue is that I am now hypersensitive to pain meds, and get palpitations. I only recently discovered this after going off subutech for 10 days. At day 10, I started getting nasty heart palpitations.

At day 20, I went back on the sub and I am better now.

My body has been on sub for 4 yrs, and I guess has developed a sensitivity to opiates.

So in my case, I will not be able to take pain meds most likely.

But it sounds like 2-3 days before surgery you go off sub. Doesnt that sned you in withdrawls. I know went I would reduce my doses, the mini withdrawl effects would be felt at about day 2-3.

So it seems that you could go into withdrawls if you stop too early.

If you stop to late, the pain meds will simply not work as strong ?

Maybe 1 day before surgery go off sub ?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:29 pm 
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It looks like that; unfortunately, you have two separate threads running about this same topic. I replied to your other thread about this same question so you may want to check there as well. I am intrigued by your comment that you feel you have become hypersensitive to opiates. Has a doctor diagnosed you with this? Or is this just something you have come up with on your own and "feel" is the case? I have to tell you that it is extremely unlikely that you have become allergic to or hypersensitive to all opiates. A couple of them - perhaps - but not each and every one. I say that in part because SUBOXONE IS AN OPIATE!!!! The term "heart palpitations" means different things to different people so I'm not sure what it is you recently experienced. I am sure that you felt something. I don't doubt you. I'm just not at all very sure that the opiates caused whatever you felt.

Again, just like I said on your other thread about this topic, you really do need to speak with your physician about all of this. It seems like you are really trying to be your own doctor - which is actually something that many addicts try to do. You really need to talk with your doctors about all of this and stop trying to be your own doctor (with help from anonymous people on Internet chat boards). Your physicians did not go through countless years of education and countless years of professional practice for nothing. While there certainly are some poor physicians out there, many know what they are doing and should be able to adequately take care of you. If you want to run by everyone here what your doctor tells you, there is nothing wrong with that. If your doc gives you advice that seems out of whack with what others here have heard or experienced, they will certainly tell you. But trying to do all of this on your own, including a self-diagnosis of being hypersensitive to opiates, is not at all a good idea. You be the patient and let your physicians play doctor. You might find that to work out a whole lot better than the other way around.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:00 am 
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Since I am a health care provider and a Physician, I do have years of training, and am quite proficient in diagnosis. However, you are correct, even Doctors shouldn't diagnosis themselves.

So my knowledge is rooted in years of practice and study.

Heart Palpitations are a side effect in all drug reference bookd under ALL OPIATES, under CNS effects. You will find Palpitations, and either Tachycardia or Bradycardia. This is a known side effect from opiates, just like constipation, and pupilary constriction.

In my case, I feel the sub has altered the my receptors, and it's become to accept sub as a normalizer, and interpret other opiates (I tried 5 different kinds to be clinical, and they allproduced the same effect, at minute doses, 1-5mg)

Not trying to show my peacock feathers here, but I am qualified to make assessments and diagnosis on myself for sure.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:36 pm 
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My BS meter just went TILT!

I don't even know where to go with this. If you are a physician, I am the president of the United States. Great to meet you.

Why would you even make a claim like that? I am seriously trying to help you here. Reading through your past posts clearly proves you are not a physician - as in a doctor of medicine. If you are, why in the world would you be asking the very basic questions you have been asking - and on an Internet chat board nonetheless?

Save the BS for those who you might be able to fool. It aint workin here.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:57 pm 
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donh wrote:
My BS meter just went TILT!

I don't even know where to go with this. If you are a physician, I am the president of the United States. Great to meet you.

Why would you even make a claim like that? I am seriously trying to help you here. Reading through your past posts clearly proves you are not a physician - as in a doctor of medicine. If you are, why in the world would you be asking the very basic questions you have been asking - and on an Internet chat board nonetheless?

Save the BS for those who you might be able to fool. It aint workin here.


I guess your BS meter needs re-calibration. Most docs know very little about suboxone. The widespread ignorance is amazing.

I find the best info comes from patients not doctors, as they live it, not practice it.

You can thinkn whatever you like my friend.

Subutech is a nuance that so few people have heard of. My father is also a Physician, and he knows very little about it, and his colleagues as well.

Not sure what country you're in, but in the U.S., it's still not widely known like aspirin.

Your bs meter needs to be traded in apparently, because your intuition is way off here.

Doctors come in all shapes and sizes, and some humble in fact, and not omni-potent and all-knowing.

Your comments are not appreciated and not constructive.

Before your judge people, you should be certain.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:38 am 
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Since you are claiming to be a doctor, I just thought you might want to know that the medication is SUBUTEX, not subutech.

At least here in the US it is. Maybe you are in another country?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:35 am 
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Let me see if I understand what's happened here.

First, mantaray999, you wrote this:
mantaray999 wrote:
Is it necessary to stop the sub while having surgery ?

Has anyone stayed on it during surgery and come out ok ?


So, you came here and asked a pretty reasonable question.

But, now, you're a doctor? :roll:

You're going to have to pardon me, but...... Image

mantaray999 wrote:
Subutech is a nuance that so few people have heard of. My father is also a Physician, and he knows very little about it, and his colleagues as well.

Um, no, "subutech" is a misspelling, it is not a "nuance" nor is it listed anywhere, in any official documentation of any kind related to the treatment of opioid dependence with Buprenorphine. A qualified MD would know this, and at the very least would know enough to do the requisite research to obtain an objective answer, and most certainly wouldn't be on an internet message board making a really, really, transparently poor attempt to masquerade as a doctor, but you already know that, don't you? :wink:

mantaray999 wrote:
Doctors come in all shapes and sizes, and some humble in fact, and not omni-potent and all-knowing.

Your comments are not appreciated and not constructive.


Yes, you are correct that doctors come in all shapes and sizes. But based on what you have posted here, the likelihood that you are a doctor (or at least a doctor of medicine - maybe you are some other kind of "doctor" ??) is roughly equivalent to the likelihood that I am Batman. Which renders ALL of the comments that are calling your alleged medical credentials into question EXTREMELY constructive, since addiction is a potentially fatal condition. No offense, but to ME, it looks like you've misrepresented yourself and those of us who value this community and the support it provides are not going to sit here idly while someone comes here and pretends to be a doctor. No qualified physician on earth would misspell the brand name for Subutex then refer to that misspelling as a "nuance" what the heck does that even mean?

Now that I have that out of the way, and because in the spirit of the intent of this forum I do not wish to send another addict away without a valuable and reasonable answer to the original question, I will tell you about my surgical experience while being on suboxone.

It went fine. I went under general anesthesia for a liver biopsy. I was given propofol to induce respiratory arrest, intubated, and had a liver sample collected. Fortunately, the post-operative pain for such a procedure is quite mild, so the fact that I was on suboxone was not a problem, nor did it interfere in any way with the propofol.

I would, however, suggest that if you are going to have more invasive surgery that you consider stopping the "subutech" for a MINIMUM of 72 hours prior to the procedure, if you are going to require post-operative pain management.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:49 pm 
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Junkie: The items you have pointed out are just the tip of the iceberg. If you were to take a look at the good doctors other posts you would find dozens of red flags. It is always so amazing to me how people will do and say things on the Internet that they would never dream of doing or saying in person. But that's a whole other topic.

Just a few more gems from the "doctor":

"They gave me Taradol, this worked." [The drug is Toradol]

"They gave me a 2nd shot of diuladid against my will." [The drug is Dilaudid]

"Thru a long story, I ended up on 4mg os subutech (not suboxone)." [The drug is Subutex]

"HI BLOOD PRESSURE..." [That would be High Blood Pressure - or Hypertension in medical terms]

"Subutex apparently is still in my receptors." [drugs attach to or are ON receptors - never in them]

"When will the palpitations go away ?" [Why would a physician ask non-medical people this question on a chat board?]

"I heard that it takes 7 half-lifes for a drug to be completely eliminated." [This would be learned in medical school]

"I was told by a pharmacologist the following: To figure out how long it takes a drug to leave your body, multiply its half life by 7." [This again would have been learned in medical school - not told by a pharmacologist to a doctor]

"Anybody know if OXY's cause anxiety ? Vs. NORCO's. ?" [Again, why would a physician ask something like this? How many doctors have never prescribed either oxycodone or hydrocodone and therefore would not know the answer to his?]

"I have the surgery thing where they stick the thing you know where to remove the bladder stone." [Can you even imagine a physician speaking like this? "Surgery thing" and "stick the thing"]

I could go on and on. I just wanted casual readers to understand how I came to my conclusion and called out this "doctor." Doctors may be known for having really bad handwriting, but they don't misspell drugs like this. Show me a physician who does not know how to spell Toradol or Dilaudid and I'll show you an incompetent physician - or a poser. I have worked with hundreds of physicians during my career and have developed friendships at various levels with a couple of dozen - and a handful have become pretty good friends. The person who wrote these things is not a physician. Not like any physician I have ever met in my life anyhow. So cut the crap, the gig is up. Diary of a Quitter knows it, Junkie knows it, I know it, and pretty much everyone else reading this now knows it. We are more than willing to try to help you out here. Addiction sucks and there is a lot to learn about it. Just please don't insult our intelligence by continuing to try to claim you are something that you clearly are not.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Yes, I agree.

I'm pretty sure that I'm NOT Batman :wink:

For those who are guests and are casually browsing the forum, I would like to just take a moment to clarify what's going on here. This is not a cause of the local clique piling on the newcomer. Donh and I have both been members here for quite a while, and I know I can speak for Donh when I say that both of us have found this place to be very helpful and informative and we are both just trying to help ensure that the information that is presented on these pages is as accurate as possible,.

The concern is that people will read some of that stuff posted here and elsewhere on this board and think it is accurate and perhaps even act on it. Now, under the wrong circumstances, acting on misinformation in the context of taking a powerful opiate medication like suboxone or subutex could have catastrophic consequences.

With that said, not only am I NOT Batman, but I'm also NOT a doctor, and I would strongly advise anyone who is considering taking ANY form of medication to consult a qualified, board-certified physician and NOT rely on the information contained in posts on an internet message board.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Also, to mantaray999 - it is nothing personal here and we are ready, willing and able to help you in any way you can. But it's important that you are honest. In fact, I would argue that recovery from addiction -real recovery- requires honesty. Brutal, objective -sometimes embarrassing and painful honesty.

I've had to do it many times in my 46 years. And it hurts every time. But there is a certain relief that comes with it as well.

So, look, let's just move on from this doctor stuff and see if we can't help you with your questions and problems, ok? :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:24 pm 
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:!: Hmmmmm.......

I have to agree with the others when I first saw the post where he was claiming to be a Dr. I had to re-read the previous posts and thought "I don't think a Dr. would come and ask Questions like this on a forum". Although, I did really need a good laugh today!!! :lol: :lol:

I will tell everyone what my Dr. said about surgery on "subtech" :lol: . He said to stay on subtech {like 1-2mg or less} and take a extra opiates or stronger opiates. I thought it was really strange but then I looked around on different sites and I found it was done this way in many places. Something about no high from it but that pain relief would be ok.

Just thought I would share that news! I am not a Dr. nor do I play one on T.V but I have always wanted to be the Santa Clause!!! :lol:

Good luck Mantaray99, A kidding aside I wish you nothing but the best in your recovery :!: :!: :D


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 Post subject: A Lynch Mob
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:44 am 
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Yes, I type fast and mispelled amny names of drugs--so this disqualified my medical license ?

You are all sorely wrong, as I am a Doctor, and have been for quite a while.

I came on this site duie to it's confidential and non-judgemental nature, but I was wrong.

I seemed to have rub soome ego's the wrong way in that by revealing my medical background, I was put on the witness stand for every statement, quote, mispelling, and question I have stated on this board.

Yes I spelled subutex wrong, and other drugs, but is this reason to destory me, and all my hard work.

This spread is a great insight into how a 'lynch mob' works. Now I know. I am not african-american, not am I a slave, but I could imagine how one person accuses someonebody of something based on a BS METER, and it's over.

I feel everbody has taken out their rage and anger on me on this thread in questioning my professionalism.

Largely based on spelling errors, and having the courage to ask basic questions.

Not all Doctors know subutex. Again. Ask your dentist next time about it. He or she is considedered a dcotor. How do you know I am not a Dentist ?

So quick to judge.

You have showed me the darker and tru side of human nature through your quick judgements, and cocksure attitudes about who I am, where I come from, and my entire identtity.

You should be careful with this in life, as often, people are not what they appear to be.

Again, I am a Medical person, have been for a while, and come from a family of them.

That doesn't mean I use spellcheck, or lose my right to post basic questions about subutex on chat boards.

JUDGEMENT was something I thought was suspended on this board to a certain extent.

And yes, all the statement I made about half-life's, ARE NOT TAUGHT IN MEDICAL SCHOOL SILLY'S.

They do not teach you that it takes 7 half-life's to metabolize a drug. This a way advanced conclusion that I shared on here for your benefit and knowledge, which like everything else I said, was annhiliated.

You are the SUBUTEX LYNCH MOB. You know everything there is, and do not allow for anyone to ask questions, and simultaneouslyt to allow them to reveal that they actually are one of those people in the medical field that heal and treat patients, but yet have doubt and questions about drugs ?

I am not a Pharmacologist. Never said I was.

I am not a Biochemist either.

But yes, I am a Doctor. And not a PH.d type. A clinical one.

BUt for all you know, it is in a field that is not necessarily in direct connection with the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of opiates.

It;s funny people usually pay me for consultations. This was the first time I was lynched.

Human nature at it's pinnacle of ugliness just because I spelled some drugs wrong, and asked questions, and made some statements I knew to be true to myself as an addict.

Shame on you folks for your rash judgement.

Before you slam the SH** out of me again for having the courage to respond to your bullying, look at your own rage and anger, and question whether or not you decided to unleash on me instead of somebody or something else, for me statement that "I AM A DOCTOR / MEDICAL PERSON".

Sad but true ugliness of human nature at it's peak here.

And again, for all you out there who say if Im a Doctor your BATMAN< SANTA CLAUSE, THE GRINCH< or whomever, well, I guess you are.

Shame on those of you who should tried to prosecute me on the witnes stand. Now I know who an innocent man feels who gets lynched. A horrible and god-awful feeling.

Evolution it's called I thought. Read between the lines, not simply the mispellings.

And tried to have a heart in your meaningless pursuits to be my judge, jury, and electric chair executioner before you pull the switch.

And yes, that homeless guy sitting on the bench, with a doomsday sign about the end of the world could be a Doctor too that simply lost his marbles at some point.

I just ask next time you see that unkept, unshaven, vagrant or homeless person, don;t lynch him too.

He could be your uncle, neighbor, or even your Primary Care Physician.

Thanks for the tar and feathering. It was a great sociological experience and insight into the mind of addicts or maybe simply just human being on a chat board that think they rule their own kingdom, and didn;t like their new guest for saying who he truly is.

Greetings and Sulutations.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:54 am 
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I do think you are exaggerating and generalizing a few comments to this entire forum. You have not been lynched - a physical assault. Some people were simply honest in their response to your posts. But you seem to have missed the fact that each person ended their post with statements akin to "we will still support you in your recovery". Perhaps - and maybe I'm going out on a limb here - people expect a certain professionalism and education from one who purports to be a "medical person". I'm sorry if some of these posts embarrassed you or caused you to feel judged - but RAGE? I think that's taking it a bit too far. I agree with those final statements from some of the posts here - we want you to stick around and we DO want to support you and assist in your recovery in any way possible. Again, I'm sorry you felt attacked. That is not what this forum is about.

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Last edited by hatmaker510 on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:05 am 
I think even the "casual readers", while not as intellegent and educated as some people here, can make their own judgements when they read something that sounds questionable. So a line by line critique of another person's post serves only to make the poster feel he is being attacked. There was another 100+ word eviceration of a poster on another thread yesterday. Are we really an open community welcoming anyone in recovery? Or are we a private club, narrowly defined? Sometimes I wonder why newcomers don't stick around, but if this were the first thread I read when coming here, I would have navigated away pretty quickly.
Luckily, this hasn't been my experience here. In fact, I've gotten more information and support here than I have in any meeting or program. That's why I think this is one of the best recovery forums on the web. So, if we read something that sounds a little "off", how about we just address the questions having to do with Suboxone and recovery, and let the rest slide?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:19 am 
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Dear Mantaray,

My computer stopped working last week and I had to take it in yesterday to be repaired. Looks like I missed a lot in the meantime. I first came to this site in August, because I am on Suboxone and I was going to have a total knee replacement. My doctor advised me to keep taking the Sub prior to surgery. The people here, based on their experience, advised me to stop taking it for at least 3 days prior to surgery. I chose not to listen to them, and although I tapered down, I continued to take 4 mg of Sub per day up to and including the day of surgery.

The people here were and are extremely helpful to me. I hold them in the highest esteem. How I wish that I had listened to them! The anesthesia itself worked fine, but, as they predicted, I was in agony when I woke up, and it lasted for about 3 days before the Sub started to wear off and the pain medication started to work.

It was recommended to me that I view and print the following article, and bring it to my doctor, and discuss my concerns with him, which I did do:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... s17732.pdf

(I don't know how to make a link.) Thank goodness that I took the time to do this beforehand, because it really helped, and although I was in extreme pain, my doctor understood what was going on, and did everything he could to try to help me.

Having said all of that, my thought is that the kind of surgery you are having might not cause the same level of post-op pain that mine did. You are correct in stating that many physicians are unfamiliar with Bupenorphine. That is why this article is so wonderful, and in addition to opening the line of communication with your MD, will provide education as well. I suggest that you speak to your prescribing physician and your urologist, communicate your concerns, and then take their advice.

I too am an educated health care professional, and it is very easy for me to think that I know better than everybody else. The truth is, I am also an addict and a human being who is far from perfect, and I have to constantly remind myself that my best thinking got me here, and I need to be quiet and listen to what other people have to say. None of us are perfect, and I always have felt that the beauty of being in recovery is the privilege of being able to come together with other recovering addicts. They are to me by far the most brilliant, astute, intuitive, and sensitive people on the planet. Over the years I have come to understand that everything that I hear either in a meeting or on a message board, I hear for a reason. Sometimes these things are hard for me to hear, but they are important. These truths have become precious to me and are responsible for helping in my recovery today.

Mantaray, I hope that your surgery goes well and wish you the best in your recovery - as do we all!

~Rossma


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Well, I'll say this, then I'll leave it alone.

"Subutech" is nonsense. It's a misspelling. Fine. But when challenged on that, the response was indignation and a lie, which effectively doubled-down on the nonsense, the claim that "subutech" was a "nuance" of "subutex" whatever that might be.

We're not the internet Gestapo here, but the value of this forum, is not only in the camaraderie of the membership, but it's also in the accuracy of the information posted here. Yes, some of it is subjective experience, but some of it is not. Some of it is completely objective fact and I think we get on a very, very slippery slope when we allow clearly bogus information to be passed of as objective fact and it should be challenged.

The fact is, if someone were to mix the wrong medications or the wrong dosages, they could be DEAD.

You can't undo DEAD.

There is no lynch mob here, and I don't find this place to be clique-ish at all. What I DO find is a group of caring individuals who understand that it's very important that the correct information be posted here. So, when questionable claims are made, they should be challenged. And I cannot think of any situation under which a real, qualified MD would say "subutech" is a "nuance" of "subutex" and frankly, that raised a huge a flag in my mind.

Maybe mantaray999 is a dentist or chiropractor or something, frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It's an anonymous internet message board. WHO CARES? Just be honest! People's LIVES are at stake here, this isn't a gardening web site or a woodworking web site. What we're discussing here can affect people's lives. I think questionable information should be challenged. With that said, moving forward, I will try to dial down the sarcasm a bit in my posts when I am challenging an assertion I find lacks credibility. I don't want newcomers to feel this is not an open and welcoming forum, because the fact is, 99% of the people who come here are welcomed with open arms, but....

What happens when the person who is NOT a doctor, who passes themselves off as a doctor, posts information on this board that leads to a dangerous or even deadly drug interaction? In my view, it is NOT OK to let questionable posts go just because we want to be nice to everyone. But I will agree that we perhaps need to find a balance when challenging users that seem to lack credibility.

I am also sorry if you felt ganged up on, mantaray999, but if you put yourself in the place of someone reading what you wrote here, in the sequence in which you wrote it, with the misspellings, and the dubious assertions, well, it should come as no surprise that some people found your claims to be, frankly, not very credible.

Again, it's an anonymous message board. Why wouldn't you just give your credentials up front, if you're really a doctor? What kind of doctor are you? What kind of degree to you hold? Do you have a specialty? If so, what is it? Are you in private practice? Internship? Research? I happen to be personal friends with several doctors. One of them runs a very large research facility at Case Western University and is studying infectious diseases, another is an oncologist at Beth Israel Hospital in Boston.

As a doctor, don't you have any peers who have been exposed to suboxone or subutex patients in need of surgery? Even my personal doctor has told me that at Mass General Hospital, this is a growing problem in the surgery department.....do you understand why some of us found your assertions to lack credibility? It's not that we don't want to help you, we do.

I'm really sorry if we got off to a bad start. Why don't we start over?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
I have to say, I am really torn with all of this. On one hand, it is getting so far off the deep end as to be laughable. But on the other hand, I have to agree with Junkie that I think it makes complete sense to make certain, to the best of our ability, that correct information is placed on this site. Misinformation can be so detrimental. Certainly, much of it is not life and death, but it certainly could be. At the least, wrong information can result in someone having some really uncomfortable days (for example not stopping Suboxone long enough prior to surgery) or even relapse. If someone says the sun rises in the West, that has to be challenged. It cannot and should not be left to stand as if it were fact. I am much less concerned with the person’s “feelings” who made the incorrect statement as I am all of the unsuspecting people that obtain that incorrect information – all because no one wanted to hurt the original poster’s feelings.

I can assure you this has absolutely nothing to do with ego. I can assure you that I don’t have “rage and anger” about any of this. That’s just silly. I’m not even sure why that would be brought up. I AM NOT a doctor, I am a Paramedic and am very comfortable with my scope of practice. I have held a license since 1987 and have treated thousands upon thousands of patients ranging from a stubbed toe to cardiac arrest - actually hundreds of each. There are all sorts of things that I do not know about and I am always hungry for new knowledge. I love to learn.

Throughout my life I have been involved with physicians, nurses and the medical community. As I said in a previous post, I have several physicians who are pretty good friends. We talk on the phone, we meet for dinner, we have been on vacation together, gone to ballgames, I have taken them flying – one is a pilot himself, another is a fellow musician. There are a couple dozen others that I would call casual friends, and then there are hundreds perhaps a thousand??? who I have worked with clinically. I know very well the traits of many physicians and I can tell you that what I have seen written here is unlike any medical doctor I have ever dealt with in my life - ever. No doctor I know would refer to hypertension as “Hi Blood Pressure” they just simply would never do it. They know the different between “hi blood pressure” and “high blood pressure” and could not confuse the two as a typo or misspelling even if they tried. This is just one of dozens of examples I could give.

The question was then asked “I type fast and mispelled amny [misspelled by the OP] names of drugs--so this disqualified my medical license?” Yes, frankly, it does. Doctors simply do not consistently misspell drugs – that is what kills people. There are so many drugs that are so close to each other. Spelling counts. For doctors, misspelling drugs is akin to misspelling their name. In fact in my training that has been drilled into us, that if ever in a court of law because of our patient care that the lawyers would most certainly call to attention any misspelling that we had and use that to attack our credibility. Spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. all go to the intelligence, aptitude and ability of the practitioner. Now, I totally understand that this is an Internet board and not a medical report. I get that. I just have not seen doctors that are able to turn off their spelling ability. I edited a medical journal with articles from dozens and dozens of doctors. I have read anything from notes to letters to reports to articles from docs. Take a look at how Dr. J writes and compare it for yourselves. There is simply no comparison. About the only explanation I could see is if the writer is not from the United States and English is not the doctor’s primary language. Then I could very well understand it.

As for your assertion that “I just ask next time you see that unkept, unshaven, vagrant or homeless person, don;t lynch him too. He could be your uncle, neighbor, or even your Primary Care Physician.” No, he will not ever be my physician nor the physician of anyone I care about. Like it or not, all of these things do count. Spelling counts. Grammar counts. Bedside manner counts, the ability for critical thinking counts, the ability to communicate counts. All of these things count in forming your opinion about someone, whether on an Internet message board or in a hospital or clinic when obtaining medical care.

You claim that “Again, I am a Medical person, have been for a while, and come from a family of them.” That may well be true. You may have some level of medical training and so may the members of your family. That does not equate to being an MD or a DO. You are correct in that doctors come in all shapes, sizes and levels of ability and competency. However, do you know what they call the person who graduated last in his class in medical school? They call him doctor.

Finally, Junkie asks what I think is a very good question:

"Why wouldn't you just give your credentials up front, if you're really a doctor? What kind of doctor are you? What kind of degree to you hold? Do you have a specialty? If so, what is it? Are you in private practice? Internship? Research?"

This whole thing started when I suggested that rather than trying to be your own doctor, (something that addicts commonly do) that you should speak with the physicians taking care of you. It was then, in response, and for the very first time, that you claimed you actually were a doctor and were capable of doing your own diagnosis. People make wild claims about who they are and what they do on the Internet every day - although most often it happens on dating web sites. Either way, if anyone was to challenge my claims of being a Paramedic, I would simply relay to them my history, my training, the types of places where I have worked, what I have done, and would even offer to provide them with a scan copy of my state license (with the last name blacked out). After all, it's a public record that anyone has access to. I pretty much figure that would shut them up and prove that I am who I say I am. But, hey, that’s just me. I've now wasted more than enough time on this whole thing and don't plan to waste any more. If I am proven wrong and find that my BS detector was indeed wrong in this case, I will provide a whole-hearted apology to everyone. Otherwise everyone can believe what they will and we'll get on to more important things around here.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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