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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:27 pm 
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long story short. was on painkillers like percs and vics just on and off on the weekends for about 6 months, not addicted. just liked to do em for 2 or 3 days straight then stop for 3 weeks, etc. in high school i was hooked on vics, maybe 5-10 a day for about a month or two and withdrawel was pretty bad but only for like 3 days. i made it through it and looking back (that was 5 years ago when i was 17) i would kill to be in that position now. i remember i didnt even know i was gonna withdraw off doing them, so i didnt know what was happening to me until i looked it up online. but i remember i still went to work and was fairly active. half the time sleeping and miserable and half the time pushing myself to do things. my parents didnt even notice. so i find myself dabbling in college again. then i move in next to my friends from high schooll in a house full of people i didnt know but they seemed cool. one of the roommates was addicted to oxy for 2 years. and since i had been dabbling, i was perfect prey. of course addicts want someone to be addicted with and right when he found out i liked to dabble he was constantly nagging me. he was an addict for years so had all sorts of shady ways of getting money. anyway when the school had book buy backs at kent state (he actually got great grades and graduated that year) he stole books everyday from the store and traded them in at the same store. just took them right off the shelf when people werent looking and traded them in as if he walked in with them as his books. for about a month he made like between 100 and 300 bucks a day. and his oxy was in cleveland, which was 40 min away. so i would either be at work or the house. and he would use my car and pay me at first to use it. then he started giving me oxy. so before i knew it i was getting a free 40 a day for a month. then when the scheme ended. i was on about 60 mg - 80 mg a day and a month later i was jobless for stealing to support it. after that i dont know how i stayed on oxy for another 2 or 3 months. so i was on it pretty much regularly 60 mg 6 days a week for maybe 4 or 5 months but doing them bi weekly for 6 months before that. so i always had a thing for opiods even when it was under control. then my roommate got subs. presented them to me as a miracle drug. i bought some. took one the first day. felt great for 2 days. realized i could take about 6 mg a day, even 4 maybe and feel fine for about 36-48 hours. started going down. a week later, i did a quarter, week later a crumble. in 3 weeks i stopped and was fine. i had succesfully ovoided the oxy withdrawel. and avoided becoming dependent on the subs. it was the perfect remedy for getting off oxy. felt "under the weather" for 5 days. that was it. i should have stopped there while i had the chance. i wasnt depressed after that. got a little bored at night. had to surround myself with people and do stuff thats all. i was at 90 to 95% there was just a very small smidgen of me that felt not quite back to normal. no cravings though. i mean i had never done heroine or anything. just about 60 mg of oxy for 4 months and then subs for a few weeks. so it wasnt too bad. i actually had control of myself. bc after the subs. i took a couple vics when i really needed it, on two seperate occasions that was just enough to get me through a mild 5-7 day withdrawel i remember. so i never lost complete control. i was just reckless, rebellious and felt like doing drugs. then i realized i needed to stop. so i stopped (back then i had control...now dont worry if your read this. im not in denial. i dont have a whole lot of control. maybe not control..... but moreso i dont have a will. i want off but i cant muster it up.) and then a month later. not even craving it. i just decided i would do a sub for a football game i went to to enhance the experience, lol. then a few days later it was to hang out with a girl and be in a good mood. then 2 days later it was to go to the bars with my friend and be happy and spit game to girls and stuff. then it was every other day. then it was every day subs again. i figured hey wahtever its better than oxy. it will just keep me from the hard stuff. i took about a half a day 4 mg at the beginning. its been about a year now. bout 5 months ago in maybe april i got down to a quarter a day from 3 or 4 mg. was on a quarter for about 2 weeks then got down to a half quarter and felt fine. i did a half quarter for about 2 weeks or 1 mg and felt fine. i felt ifthis was the time to stop it was right now. i had been on subs for maybe a total of 4, 5, or 6 months at most never more than 4-6 mg and now down to 1 mg and lets just do it. but i just wasnt as strong as before and didnt want to deal with the anxiety and mild withdrawel when i had subs so easily accessed for free from a buddy so i kept doing them. that was the last time i had motivation to get off. and i was back to a quarter a day for the next 5 months. now iv been on 3 mg as of late. you just start taking extra for different things. when you wake up. before you go to bed. for a football game. to go out with a girl, whatever. and now im getting back down to a quarter. right now. so im currently at 3 mg working down to 2. shouldnt be a problem. 1 might be a bit harder. but bottom line is. did oxy for 5 months. have done subs for a year at an average of about 3mg a day. just got a prescription a week ago. told them the truth. they put me on 4 mg a day. but i dont get the feeling the doc is really good or is gonna do anything to help me get off. its just better than getting them off the street for my conscience. but could be worse in the long run as i will always be able to get it and 90% covered by insurance and my parents know now. so there is no reason to quit. before it was money or my parents or it wasnt available. now its nothing.
guess this wasnt a long story short anymore. this is a long story long, lol. ill wrap it up. i see a lot of people on here have been on heavier drugs for longer than me, or higher doses of subs. it seems like once you get to the 1 year mark your gonna deal with some pretty heavy withdrawel. and i have read horror stories. i can tell im way more addicted. it has a way stronger hold although i do less. put it this way. back then even though i did more, say 4 mg i only needed it every 48 hours maybe 36. now to feel comfortable i need a piece every 6-8. i bought into a lie that the longer your on it the easier it is to get off. but my friend told me that not the doctor and he was on a lot heavier drugs for a lot longer than me. now im more addicted. is it going to be that severe for me? moderately severe? still light withdrawel? am i at the point of heavy withdrawel? where do i stand? honestly from ppl who have been there.....i need to know what to expect. even if its going to be terrible, im gonna do it, i just need to be prepared. also, what side drugs should i take? i take benedryl and melatonin a lot and it seems to replace a crumble if i dont take one late night. will my adderall make things worse? i need it to concentrate.
should i take imodium?
should i take melotonin and benedryl or get prescribed some sort of sleep med?
my mom has 1 mg lorazapam or maybe .5 and i feel like a half pill of that every 8 hours could help. i have never had a thing for benzos....could i do this? for how long, before i start to get a WD affect from the benzos? maybe 5 days? less? 3 days?
should i get prescribed anything else? will ib profin help some? i can get a hold of some vics. should i maybe take a half a vic instead of the benzos for 5 days and then stop? trust me i can handle it. you dont need to say "be careful" just tell me the truth of what wille ease the pain.

couple ideas: i have school till december 15 then a 1 month break. thinking about driving to florida for 2 weeks. where i can be in the sun in 60 or 70 degree weather. with a buddy for 2 weeks. have him just give me a vic or an anziety pill before bed every night for a week. then nothing for the second week. and come home. or just go by myself, drive there, lock myself in a room and let it begin. if ill be too sick to drive home, i guess ill be stuck till its over!!!! i might not really have the balls to do this, but who knows. too bad this country isnt wider. if i drive to california for 36 hours., i can still get home before WD are over. if i could drive somewhere like 4 days away. then id just be stuck, lol.

or..... i need to get my wisdom teeth pulled. since ill be miserable anyway and get vics. maybe just be on the vics for a week while im already in bed and in pain from the wisdom teeth. my parents will just think im out of it. it would be a perfect cover and maybe the vics would help???? i have been thinking about this for a while. i think this actually may be a good idea. because if i do WD, partially i might not differentiate between the WD and the misery of the surgery.

anyone got a plan? anyone who is been through it or going through it? how bad is it gonna be? give me a good regimine of pills to take with it. like i dont want to take 4 different sleepy meds unless its ok. what is a good regimine of things i can take that is safe? is there anything i should avoid mixing? like would melatonin benedryl and ambien be bad?

i just realized i took maybe 1 mg last night at 3 am and i took maybe 1/2 a mg at 7 am. so its now 12 hours without sub and even then it was only .5 mg. feel mild anxiety. if i think about it. it will be bad. but i can shake it off for now i think. what should i take right now? anything? i want to make it until 11 pm and then go to bed at like 2 so i can only take one dose. if i can do that, i feel like maybe i could get away with only 1 1/2 mg or so. load up on some benedryl and melatonin. what can i expect as this continues? i havent gone more than 24 hours without a sub in at least 4 months.

thanks
sorry for the long message


grant


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:38 am 
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Sounds like u need rehab for a year.


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 Post subject: My opinion...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:49 am 
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Hey man,

First off, I feel your pain. Three years ago I was able to come off of Suboxone with no problem at all, I just didn't think about withdrawals. Same thing with Oxy's 4 years ago, I went through pretty mild withdrawal even though I was doing around 4 to 4 1/2 Oxy 40's a day. I always put them up my nose, never been one to swallow them. So, I think that makes a difference in how long and hard you will withdraw.

Anyway, I think you may be in for some pretty heavy withdrawal. I don't want to scare you or psych you out because I psych myself out now. To the point to where I cannot stop taking Suboxone because I know that I am in for some shit. However, I am going to make an effort to quit tomorrow, I've been on 1 mg to about a crumble for about a year or so now. But after 3 days of not taking them the hardcore withdrawal sets in. Even though I'm at such a low dose.

I loved Suboxone when I first got on it, I too believe it to be a miracle drug but it also has a downside... The extremely long half life which makes the withdrawals last longer and much worse.

Now, everybody is different, if you have a high metabolism you may get through this in 4-5 days. If not then you may be looking at 7-10 days of full blown withdrawal. Then there is PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) I think. That is basically where you feel ill motivated and depressed while having cravings for months after you stop taking Sub. However, I've never gone through PAW's in my life and I've stopped taking hard opiates several times and come off of Suboxone cold turkey once.

People have come up with all sorts of ways to try and make withdrawal easier like the 10 mL of water to 1 x 8 mg of suboxone. That may work, but it seems like it would just be easier to deal with the withdrawals for 5 days or so. If you can't get up to be social or go exercise then don't, although remaining active WILL make things easier for you as exercise releases endorphines. Plus, it makes you forget about the withdrawal you are going through for a short while. But, I can't hardly do anything when I'm withdrawing...

As for the Lorazepam it may help a bit, but Lorazepam is Generic Atavan. A very weak Benzodiazipine similar to Xanax/Valium/Klonopin.

If you can, get your doc to give you Xanax/Valium/Klonopin to help you out. But don't get hooked don those, it's easy to do. Also, from what I've read on the forums and what some of my friends have told me Clonodine helps a great deal as well, also Flexiril the muscle relaxer can help with muscle spasms (restless legs, aching muscles)

In a nutshell, try to get a Benzo such as Xanax/Klonopin/Valium (the Ativan will help if that's all you can get). Get some multi-vitamins as the B-Vitamins in them will give you some much needed energy. Try to eat some fruits/veggies and stay active!!!!

The Clonodine will help supress your Autonomic Nervous system and is mostly used for treating blood pressure, however doctors give it to patients whom are hooked all of the time to aid in easing the w/d symptoms.

If you can last 5 days you should be good to go, again though, everyone is different.

If you wanna talk some more about it just hit me up with a PM and keep posting in the forums as everyone here is highly knowledgeable regarding opiates and Suboxone.

But, getting advice from 20 different people can be confusing and often times will scare the hell out of you since everyone is on different doses of Sub and have taken different doses of oxy, roxy, vidodin, percocets, etc. No one person's experience is the same...

Hang in there man, you can do it!!!!

Best of luck,

PAINguin

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:33 pm 
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First of all let's all try to avoid giving others medical advice unless you're an MD. Second when you take Suboxone in small doses it will act like any other opiate. Dr. Junig has made some very good points about how some people taking more than 4 mgs of Suboxone will think they "need" to take more when they're only experiencing phantom withdrawals. I've found that to be very true in my case. When I first started on Suboxone (after using opiates for a little under half of my life) I would get phantom withdrawals and think that I needed to take more and I did at first however after understanding how Suboxone works I've realized that's just simply not how it works if you're getting decent absorbtion of the medication and after distracting myself for a few minutes the phantom withdrawals went away which would NEVER happen when I'd be going through real withdrawal. I'm not afraid to admit I was majorly addicted to opiates for a long time but because of how different Suboxone (over 4mgs) is there's no way in hell I could take it as prescribed if taking more actually changed how I felt.

My best advice would be to either check into a 90 day treatment center or look into Suboxone or methadone maintenance. Since you've continually used in the past after having "quit" it really wouldn't seem that you've "quit". For me every time I tried to quit before Suboxone I was absolutely convinced I would NEVER use again and sure enough after several months I'd be using more. I'm not trying to discourage you but I'm simply saying that in my personal experience (and the vast majority of other's experience) it is literally impossible to "quit" just using "willpower" and in order to make sure you have a decent chance (statistically speaking) of not losing everything or dying from opiate addiction I'd really encourage you to look into going to an actual doctor for help in making this important decision and strongly look at either 90 inpatient treatment or Suboxone or methadone maintenance.

Good luck man hope you're able to find something that works.

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 Post subject: Agreed
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:16 pm 
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Yes, I agree with Matt and I believe I said something of the like in my post. But if you really want to come off of Suboxone correctly you should see your doctor or find one that specializes in addiction medicine.

Quitting Suboxone is more than simply not taking the pills any longer. There is maintenance involved such as meetings, support by family, friends, etc. and most importantly you must stop hanging out with the people you used to hang with and you must stop going to the places you used to go.

You will hear this in NA, AA and from most Addiction specialists out there....

Anyway, best of luck in your efforts my friend. We'll be here if you need someone to talk to...

Sincerely,

PAINguin

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:09 pm 
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No need to be sorry PAINguin you didn't do anything wrong I just wanted to make sure that grantrhooper would consider seeing a Dr. to make any kind of medical (including medications) decisions. There's nothing wrong with sharing your opinion and your own experiences at all and in fact that's what we're here for :D I just wanted to point out that grantrhooper would be better off with a Dr. deciding what medications he should be taking. I really wasn't trying to come off as being tyranical and or flexing my miniscule moderator powers (there aren't any obviously lol).

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:15 pm 
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BTW really like your signature PAIN there's another quote that goes something like "indifference is the essence of evil" but I can't remember who it was.......

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:24 pm 
Hi Grant. I hope your week is getting off to a good start. I read your post and the replies yesterday and have thought about your situation off and on since then. Most of the folks on this forum have a good deal of knowledge and experience when it comes to Suboxone. All you have to do is read around on here for a while and most of the questions you asked in your post above will be answered (ie how to taper, what symptoms to expect when you get off Sub, what meds are recommended to help, etc)
As Painguin and Matt2 have said - it can be scary and confusing to hear different experiences from different people, and we are not doctors so we can't give medical advice. We can only tell you what and how we've experienced things. I think you even said yourself how different all of our experiences are in terms of what and how much and how long we used drugs in our pasts.
I am glad to hear you went to a doctor to get your Suboxone prescribed legally. I encourage you to continue to be honest with him/her about your history and your current status. If you haven't already, I would recommend that you tell your doctor that your goal is to wean off the Sub as soon as it's advisable. That way the doc will know that is your ultimate goal and can guide you accordingly.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you have a pretty long history of misusing opiates. In my opinion, it doesn't matter all that much how much you used or if you were able to stop on your own before. The bottom line is that drugs have been a problem for you throughout your late teens and early twenties. You used them to cope with uncomfortable situations during a time in your life which would (without drugs) have been a time of great learning regarding healthy coping skills.
So now, here you are, wanting off Suboxone that you've been taking without the help and direction of a doctor all this time. Honestly what I think you ought to do is consider just starting over. You've taken the first step by going to the doctor. Let the professional instruct you on your dosages, times, etc. That can be a good first step towards breaking active addiction. We are used to self medicating, 'controlling' our use - obviously we're not very good at it! You've got to allow yourself to obtain some more formal education about addiction too. Maybe look in to an outpatient program for chemical dependence or private counseling. Go to some recovery groups - if you don't like NA, there is a Christian recovery program called Celebrate Recovery.
I just really think your problem goes deeper than just getting off Suboxone. This is the case for almost all of the rest of us. As Matt2 said, the likliehood of you 'gutting out' the withdrawals and staying clean over the long haul are very slim. This thing is much more complex than that. Sometimes we have to accept the fact that we need more help and go get it, before we can change the patterns of the past. Suboxone can help us do that....what it can't do is do all the work for us!
Let us know how you're doing.


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 Post subject: update
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:44 pm 
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heres the thing. i am with a doctor. but i want to be done with this. its not like before. God radically transformed every aspect of my life right around the time i got on subs. just fixed morality issues in my life that i wanted to fix and couldnt left and right. im a completely different person. and ashamed of my person in the past. the only thing that keeps me whole is God. he is what i need. and i have the support necessary to get off with my parents knowing now, God, and my friends and their prayers. once im off. i will be off forever. i have no doubt. the reason that i would get back on is because i was in shady situations. im not anymore. i have no old friends. i told all my drug friends long ago to leave me alone and got a new number. i have no way of getting any drugs. i have people watching out for me. and my only friends are those from church. once im off the subs, its over. thats the only hurdle. people get back on because they put themselves in familiar situiations. i certainly do not a detox i can assure. reading my bible daily gives me the comfort i need and i completely forget about my withdrawel. i want to get on with my purpose in life for God, and was convicted about this last issue from a past life. it is really the last remaining morality issue in my life and i felt conviced (by God, i believe) to further my sanctification and i know he will be there, like he was before. i wasnt even planning on stopping. in fact i just got a prescription weeks ago, so i could keep doing subs. but God seemed to have other plans because after a lot of prayer he finally gave me the courage i was lacking. i dont need detox. i dont know where to get drugs. and ive never done another drug since suboxyn. my mom and dad have oxycodone in the house at all times, my mom has cancer, while ive been on subs and for the last 5 months i have had no interest. and i know i wont. if i ever "went back to drugs" it would only be subs anyway.....so whats the difference? im on subs now, i want off..... if i relapse it will be to subs, not anything else....bc i dont know where to get oxy anymore. and wouldnt want it anyway. may as well try to get off now and get on with life.
update:
wednesday i took a quarter 2mg fine

thursday i took a quarter 2mg fine

friday i took a half quarter 1 mg at like 12 pm and went to bed an hour or two later, felt fine slept fine

saturday i went all day nothing. a couple half lorazapams and i took about .5 mg sub or so and some benedryl and melatonin at bedtime around 1 slept fine felt fine

sunday took a couple half lorazapams, some melatonin and benedryl at bed.....slept fine feel fine. lot of prayer

monday- 6pm- havent taken anything yet, feel fine?

i really doubt that im gonna feel anything at all. i feel happ happ happity. barely any different. i think ill sleep tonight and be fine tommorow but ill let you know


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:45 pm 
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heres the thing. i am with a doctor. but i want to be done with this. its not like before. God radically transformed every aspect of my life right around the time i got on subs. just fixed morality issues in my life that i wanted to fix and couldnt left and right. im a completely different person. and ashamed of my person in the past. the only thing that keeps me whole is God. he is what i need. and i have the support necessary to get off with my parents knowing now, God, and my friends and their prayers. once im off. i will be off forever. i have no doubt. the reason that i would get back on is because i was in shady situations. im not anymore. i have no old friends. i told all my drug friends long ago to leave me alone and got a new number. i have no way of getting any drugs. i have people watching out for me. and my only friends are those from church. once im off the subs, its over. thats the only hurdle. people get back on because they put themselves in familiar situiations. i certainly do not a detox i can assure. reading my bible daily gives me the comfort i need and i completely forget about my withdrawel. i want to get on with my purpose in life for God, and was convicted about this last issue from a past life. it is really the last remaining morality issue in my life and i felt conviced (by God, i believe) to further my sanctification and i know he will be there, like he was before. i wasnt even planning on stopping. in fact i just got a prescription weeks ago, so i could keep doing subs. but God seemed to have other plans because after a lot of prayer he finally gave me the courage i was lacking. i dont need detox. i dont know where to get drugs. and ive never done another drug since suboxyn. my mom and dad have oxycodone in the house at all times, my mom has cancer, while ive been on subs and for the last 5 months i have had no interest. and i know i wont. if i ever "went back to drugs" it would only be subs anyway.....so whats the difference? im on subs now, i want off..... if i relapse it will be to subs, not anything else....bc i dont know where to get oxy anymore. and wouldnt want it anyway. may as well try to get off now and get on with life.
update:
wednesday i took a quarter 2mg fine

thursday i took a quarter 2mg fine

friday i took a half quarter 1 mg at like 12 pm and went to bed an hour or two later, felt fine slept fine

saturday i went all day nothing. a couple half lorazapams and i took about .5 mg sub or so and some benedryl and melatonin at bedtime around 1 slept fine felt fine

sunday took a couple half lorazapams, some melatonin and benedryl at bed.....slept fine feel fine. lot of prayer

monday- 6pm- havent taken anything yet, feel fine?

i really doubt that im gonna feel anything at all. i feel happ happ happity. barely any different. i think ill sleep tonight and be fine tommorow but ill let you know


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 Post subject: Signature quotes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:52 am 
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Matt,

Thanks! I love that quote and I use it on several forums I am on. The quote you were referring to was by "George Bernard Shaw", I believe. "Indifference is the essence of inhumanity", "Indifference is the essence of evil", there are a few that people have posted on various "quote" sites but I believe yours sounds correct.

Does George Bernard Shaw sound correct?

Thanks,

PAINguin

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 Post subject: Response to Grant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:01 am 
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Grant,

That's good man, I'm glad to here that you are not hanging with your old crowd any longer. It sounds like you know what you need to do and you know where you are going. I too believe that once I come off of Suboxone again I will be finished but I can only say that in confidence right now. After I am off of Suboxone it will be a whole different story. You just never can tell you know?

It sounds like your faith in god is helping you through this struggle as well which is good. I grew up in a Christian home but found that Science made more sense to me as I am a skeptic. Although, there is that overhanging sense that there may be a god out there and that I may not be allowing him to help me through my struggles. Perhaps I should venture down that avenue as I have not been to church in years. I went to one of those Rock n' Roll churches about 2 years ago and it was great!

Does anyone in here go to those churches? I think they call them New Age churches or something like that...

Regardless, keep doing what you are doing and with the support from your doctor and the support from your family and friends at church you should be good to go!

Let me ask you though, do the people at your church know about your struggles? And if they do, have any of them judged you because of it?

I have always been curious about me going back to church and if I would be judged or not if I told everyone why I decided to seek help from the lord you know?

Anyway, talk to you soon!

Sincerely,

PAINguin

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update.
90 day detox my ass for all the haters. no jk. but seriously. 5 or 6 days now. feel completely fine. sleep is rough. clonidine is shit. would it help if i took like 6 of em?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:27 pm 
Grant - So good to hear that you're doing so well! The sleep thing will get better with time. Someone once told me "no one ever died from lack of sleep" and it's good to remember that. So you don't sleep much for a little while...yeah, it's difficult and frustrating but it won't kill ya!! Plus - if that's the worst of it - be thankful!!! Right? I'm so happy for you that it seems you're meeting the goal you've had for so long. God is good!!
Keep posting these positive remarks (for all the haters!) But of course, feel free to share if you're having problems too. If the clonidine at the prescribed dose didn't do you any good, no worries. DO NOT take more of it - it's a blood pressure med and if you take too much of it you will feel like trash!! Don't do it!

And Painguin, I've been intending to post to you about the rock n roll church question you had. I go to what a lot of people would probably call a rock n roll church. A lot of us around here call it a megachurch. My husband jokingly calls it "Six Flags over Jesus" Isn't that hilarious?!! It is a huge church - runs around 3000 at a Sunday service. There's a Saturday evening service and 2 Sunday morning services to accomodate the masses! Anyway - it's not 'new age'. Generally 'new age' refers to a spiritual type of movement that came about not too long ago. My very limited knowledge of it is that it is not Bible-based, adheres to no religious doctrine of any kind. It's more about finding one's own path to spirituality often involving nature, astronomy, holistic medicine, meditation techniques and the like. Again that's based on my very limited knowledge of the subject. My church would be referred to as "nondenominational". Very much Bible-based and for the most part adheres to the general doctrine of most protestant Christian religions with some differences. The cool thing is that these types of churchs are not consumed with the traditional order of services, singing from the old hymnal, etc thereby breaking out of some the boringness if you will, and the stagnation of some of the traditional religions. I am not slamming any religion here at all. I just think that in order to draw folks into or back to Christ, we've got to get outside the box a bit. The music (praise and worship) is phenomenal! The messages are relevant and uplifting (for the most part) and the mission is to reach out to people, lead people to the Lord, to fellowship, to learn and grow spiritually and to have a good time doing it! It's not for everyone but for some of us it works and adds a wonderful dimension to our spirituality, thereby assisting us in our recovery. Anyway....just wanted to try and answer your question. Hope that helps!
Regards to all!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:50 pm 
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6 nights i think now. last night in my hellish insomnaic rage i accidentally took about .25 of crumble and it help me sleep. maybe .5 at most. please tell me this doesnt start me all over. even if it does ill keep going. hadnt slept for one minute in 5 days, i couldnt do my school work. i guess i needed it. still no daytime withdrawel symptoms

what is 10 mL of water to 1 x 8 mg of suboxone that painguin mentioned?


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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