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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:58 pm 
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Ok so I use to take subutex for 7 to 8 years before 2013, I got off for a year with a decent taper, did not have much in the way of withdrawals. Recently I got back on the Sub train for reasons unforseen. But here is my question, when I did use to take subutex before I got off back in 2013 I always had my endorphins potentiated by working out, excercise, cardio, sports etc, basically I use to consume my sub dose and then 20 mins later work out for few hours, I could feel the sub potentiated my excercise endorphins or vice verse, I use to feel natural high after working out for the whole evening up to early morning when I went to bed (I use to wake up around 4:30pm and work out at 5:30pm-I believe this had a lot to do with feeling very high when excercising together with taking bup-all in the evening).

Now presently on my second stint on sub I do not feel the same type of Endorphin rush when working out, infact when I am working out I feel it speeds out the bup out of my system, making it feel as though the bup is stopping my endorphins from increasing during excercise..I do not feel in withdrawal or anything but feel mentally as though you feel when your tapering on very low doses, now why is this happening? yet during my past bup stint I was getting a high endorphin rush when I worked out just after taking my dose. I just do not understand this right now.

If anbody can explain this I would help me great deal as am mystified as to why I do not get the same endorphin rush feelings while working out as I did before. Is it because in the past I had been on bup for several years? and this time I've been on it for 3 months? I do not know if that makes a difference because I do remember in the past even after a month I was getting a endorphin rush during my work out routine. However during my first stint on bup I did feel somewhat high, but now I do not feel anything other then like a morning coffee, but my main confusion is why even during excercise I do not feel the bup potentianting my excercise endorphins, whereas in the past it did. What changed this time?

thank you.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:12 pm 
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There may or may not be some real effect, causing you to feel different... but any comment about what may be happening would be a guess. One thing I do know is that there are huge placebo-like effects with buprenorphine and subjective experiences. People feel lousy when their brand is changed, convinced they aren't 'getting enough'. Eventually, they feel fine-- and the only thing that has changed is their perception. Likewise, I've often heard the impression that 'I'm sweating out the buprenorphine when I work out'... but we know, for certain, that buprenorphine levels do not go down because of working out or perspiration. If drug metabolism changed every time the sympathetic nervous system revved up, treatment of any illness would be impossible!

I don't mean to put down you impressions, because many people describe the same thing. Subjective experiences are tied to expectations, to mood, to background experiences... and they are usually unrelated to what is going on at the level of chemical levels and drug effects. For example, I will see patients get better from depression, but early in their recovery they will often 'feel' worse. At the peak of depression people sometimes become empty of all emotions... and part of the return to health is feeling sad again.

Not sure if that is the best example... but my main point is that whatever you are feeling, it is hard to know if the experience is caused by a real phenomenon. Understand that now that you have put the idea out there, some of the people who read it and lift weights will 'notice' the same thing, because of their expectations.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:33 pm 
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You got an answer from Dr. Junig himself! I just want to add that the more I learn about the brain, what it's capable of, and how much our body processes can be affected by it, the more I understand the power of perception.

It is incredibly difficult to untangle all the information being brought into our brains, by our brains. When you add outside chemicals into the mix it's even more confusing to winnow our perceptions from reality!

I hope you can find other ways of making your sub dose work for you. Maybe it would make a difference in how you feel if you dosed at the opposite time of day from when you exercise. Good luck to you.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:48 pm 
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Thanks but I must say I have to disagree somewhat about the sweating out bup issue. I can certaionly feel that when I work out it is as though I am at very low doses, just like when I remembered the time I was tapering down, I may not get pshycal withdrawals but on the mental side of things I can feel the levels of bup going down in my brain, so in that sense I would certainly believe by working out the bup is decreasing it's half life in the brain, that is my take on it.

I never said dose is not working for me, infact it does hold me, it is when I work out I do not get an endorphin rush like I use to previously when I was on subutex, I do not know why but all I know is when I was in bup treatment before 2013 for 8 years I always got a endorphin rush excercising, this time I do not get any excercise rush. All I can think of is that in the past the bup had built in my system enough that even a small dose would trigger an endorphin rush during a work out, but since now I've only been taing it for 3 months or so the levels have not built as much as in my receptors, therefore the bup is actually stopping my endorphins from increasing, like it's blocking them, at the same time the bup is leveling off or down from my receptors during a work out, this is why I make not feel any rush nor any withdrawals, maybe the sub is occupying receptors where endorphins are released from, so they cancel eachother out, that is all I can think of right now.

Perhaps if I am still on sub 6 months down the line there may be enough bup in my receptors to potentiate my endorphins during a work out let alone give me nornal endorphin rush. This is some complicated stuff, it's either the bup dminished the endorphins or increases them, I've experienced both, which I cannot put a finger on why.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:59 am 
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Hey there...

When I am on bupe/sub I always take it after I work out as I feel that it blockes my body from producing endorphins.. search sub and endorphins.. you'll see very interesting information about it blocking the natural endorphin production.. Bupe is a much stronger drug then they let on.. they have people on WAY too high of doses.. its insanity..

I am in the process of getting off of sub very easily utilizing working out as the main method to fight the discomfort of decreasing dose and w/d (or lack there of...) its pretty amazing what the body's natural endorphins can do..

Endorphins is basically the bodies naturally occurring morphine.. interesting huh?

Maybe take your sub after you work out if you feel your are "sweating it out" ? Just a thought. .

Hope you get some good info to relate to and help!

Best,

NC


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Hi redemption,

Have you tried to just switch back to Subutex? Maybe there is something about the Naloxone in the Subxone that is not in Subutex. Not sure

I personally am on Zubsolv and it works great, I do not feel like i am "losing " any type of feeling when I work out. I get a workout high while on Zubsolv. So maybe you can try it.

Just a thought . Maybe your doctor will switch you and you can TEST your theory on whether you feel different.

Good Luck!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:05 pm 
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Hey there..

What is Zubslov?? Just a newer suboxone? What is the benefit? Have you heard of Bunavail? It is a small strip/patch think you put on the inside of your check so its discrete.. man.. more and more manufactures coming out with these products huh.. A lot of money it the addiction business I am afraid..


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:10 pm 
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Zubsolv is just another med that came out during the generic production of Suboxone. It is 5.7mg instead of 8mg and from what I have heard the absorption rate is better.

it tastes way better too.

they have a coupon that i use that is similiar to the Suboxone one that is like $75 off.

so i end up getting it for free.

Worth a try. I switched to it because of my insurance. They wouldn't pay for the sub strips so I had to switch. And I am so glad I did because I take less with the same feel.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:25 pm 
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Thanks.. going to talk to my doc about that and bunavail next week at my apt..


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:17 pm 
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Hi guys, thanks again for your input. Yep I heard of zublov, I believe it has nalaxone in it? I hear buprenorphine with naloxone i.e.e suboxone is tougher to get off then subutex.

I do not feel I can work out before taking my sub dose, I just will not feel motivated enough or energetic, I need the sub to get my day going. Maybe I have a fast metbolism but this time around being on sub is way different then when I was in maintenence treatment in the past. In the past even 0.5mg gave me an intense high which lasted a long time, but now since I got back on sub not even 12mg gave me any high feeling at all, please bear in mind I am NOT looking for a high, but just stating how I felt when I took sub in the past.

My issue now is that I simply do not feel the same endorphin rush during a work out like I did before. In the past I always use to take my dose and then work out straight after, for if I worked out hours later after taking my dose I just would not feel too great, so any excercise close to taking my dose always made me feel good. Now this time when I do some excercise after taking my dose I just feel quite bored, I do not get any endorphin no matter how hard am working out, maybe when the weather gets better then the sun will help increase those endorphins. but once again taking sub this time round has been different while working out when I took it in the past.

I simply think it is because I lost weight this time, which, made my metabolism fast, and I have not been on sub long as I did in the past, hence why I do not feel that great of a endorphin rush. I think when I was on sub in the past it had covered more or less most of my receptors, so when I worked out the sub became my endorphins , if that makese sense, as though sub endorphins mixed with natural endorphins, but now it seems I have many receptors open and uncovered by bup, so perhaps when I work out the sub and endorphins cancel eachother out OR they fight for those uncovered receptors. Who knows.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:33 pm 
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You are currently on 12mg.. I would think that would be enough to fill your receptors and whatever wasn't would be by your bodies natural endorphins. That is exactly what Buprenorphine does though.. it is basically synthetic endorphin.. it is like dropping an atom bomb of endorphin into your body.. so much so your brain has to create more receptors to accommodate the amount of sub you/we/whomever is taking it, into their body. The W/D processes is the body screaming for all those extra receptors to be filled and when they aren't they eventually die off.. (that is my understanding at least of what happens.. could be wrong) or you can exercise to fill them with endorphin.. its a balancing act process of tapering/exercising.. so there is minimal discomfort..

So for your issue.. I am not sure what the deal is.. where you on the same dose last time? Maybe taking too much.. I think the "ceiling" effect 4mg's so anything higher does not produce more results.. for example.. I just don't know..

See I take such a small amount now (and I have only been back on for 7 weeks after being off for over a year and I never took more than 1mg) and never take more than like 0.2 microdose a day if needed.. I run 2-3 miles every morning and see how I feel throughout the day.. the goal is not to take any but if I do it's so minimal..

But you don't seem to be interested in tapering off right now.. I just wasn't sure since the thread you posted is in the "stopping" section.. thought I'd let you know what worked for me when you're ready..

Maybe your Doc has some input?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:30 pm 
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Hey Norcal, am sorry I should have been more clear. I started at 12mg about 5 months back after being off for about a year. I have been tapering since then, my issue was that when I was on bup in the past no matter what dose I always felt good during and after a work out (when I took my sub dose) even when I was tapering, until I got down to 0.4 then mentally I did not feel much, even with intense excercise, this is how I feel presently on sub and excercise, like am on 0.4 but am on 2mgs right now. Just feels the whole process on being on bup is different this time then last time, I dont know why. When I first took bup it was way back in 2006, I remember even 0.5mg got me high, I always felt it during those 8 years, specially when working out, but since I got back on the sub train 5 months back I have not felt those feelings, not even when am working out, I dont know what has changed this time around, I dont know about tolerance because I had been off sub for a year, so I should have felt something on bup when I re-started again, but I have not, I only feel it holds me, thats it.

Am pretty concerned about this as I keep thinking maybe bup has done something to my receptors that those receptors does not bind it to bup as they did last time, I hope am wrong. It feels very weird is all. I do remember when I tapered to 0.4 during my first maintence treatment I started to feel less endorphins, this was when I was tapering off IN 2013, but now like I said does not matter what does am taking, I feel I am not producing those same endorphin rush during cardio, sports etc as I did when I was in my first bup treatment.

All I can think of right now is that perhaps last time I took bup for several years so my receptors got use to it, even when excercising, but now maybe because its been only 5 months or so that it has not filled those receptors yet, but then the question comes back to the fact why I never felt any high or euphoric when I started bup this time around, whereas back in 2006 any dose from 0.5 to 4mg got me euphoric, who knows maybe bup does something to the receptors that even when u get off and re-start a year later that you do not feel its maxium affects anymore, really confuses me too, surely after being off for a year I would feel those past bup feelings, but I do not, whether its 4mg 2mg etc I do not feel that working out high feelings on bup like I use to during my first stint on bup.

My doctor really has not got a clue, they only prescribe and taper u off, they think bup and endorphins are separate, other then that they cannot answer. I will just have to taper off from 2mg doing the best I can now, am just worried if bup has done something to my brain as I did take it for 8 years in the past.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:11 pm 
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Huh.. That is strange.. Maybe it is just tolerance since you were just on it 5 months ago.. Who knows.. I have been on and off of it for 20 years almost.. I am also got pretty high off it.. So I am on minimal possible and working out like a crazy person.. Only been back on 7 weeks this time so hoping to be off,in the next few days

I hope you figure it out..


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Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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