It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:15 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:32 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
Here's a question for you guys. What's your experience regarding your feelings about alcohol.
I'm thinking most people stable on subs don't drink either, but what I'm wondering about is the desire
to drink. I was sober many years in AA before relapsing on narcotics, but I sometimes allowed myself to indulge in little fantasies about having a nice drink of bourbon, which I used to love, including the taste.

I'm finding now though....closing in on two months on subs....that along with my opiate cravings
my alcohol cravings have flown the coop. But why? I doubt opiate receptors have anything to do with
alcohol.

Anyone else have this experience regarding no desire for booze either? Maybe the fact that my opiate receptors are fully occupied...hence satisfied in a way that doesn't involve any sort of high....reduces
the need for any kind of drug high? The thought of speed for example, makes me nauseous. Psychedelics too. Used to love Seconal and related drugs. Same deal there. I just have no desire to get high in any form.

Boy is that revolutionary for a guy who started reading about and planning to try drugs at the age of 8 or 9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:09 am 
Offline
Super-Duper Poster
Super-Duper Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:01 pm
Posts: 354
Location: Mid-Atlantic
what was your influence to take drugs at age 8 or 9?

i was highly influenced by morrison and joplin. i read no one here gets out alive as a pre-teen. and i went to a pink floyd concert at age 15 and just knew i had to do drugs because i was missing something!

my therapist says sometimes people will substitute drinking for drug use, that's my she and my MAT dr. say not to drink while on subs.

_________________
Get your shit together and live your life." Black Snake Moan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:40 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:48 pm
Posts: 1336
The craving of alcohol seems to be a wonderful side effect for many people. I personally know dozens
of folks who lack the want or need. Especially in early recovery.
Reasons may be the recovery process that dr/clinics request or demand. When I started years back I missed
the fellowship of the men and women at the local watering holes. The life"
Sub did and does the heavy duty here, but my 1st 3 years I was in a 12 step fellowship and went though IOP.
Drinking was ,is, a no no. Clinic rules and I believe my recovery is sub only.
It isnt recommend to drink on Buprenorphine.
So, yes, Godfrey it is a fairly common side effect. There are some places that are giving Buprenorphine it alcoholic s after all other aves have failed.
Buprenorphine satisfaction, that feeling of wellness drift s over to help stop cravings for booze..weird. .

Razor


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:36 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
SisterMorphine wrote:
what was your influence to take drugs at age 8 or 9?

i was highly influenced by morrison and joplin. i read no one here gets out alive as a pre-teen. and i went to a pink floyd concert at age 15 and just knew i had to do drugs because i was missing something!

my therapist says sometimes people will substitute drinking for drug use, that's my she and my MAT dr. say not to drink while on subs.



Hi SisterM,

I had similar feelings. And I'm just of your generation....possibly a bit older.

I was a strange kid, always making up stories and situations as a kind of escape now that I look back on it. I used to go the barbershop once a month as a young boy and he had all these tabloids for the customers....the police gazette is one I recall...that featured all sorts of lurid...and ludicrous...tales of drugs and "drug fiends."

These stories fascinated me. Also movies about addiction when I was a little bit older. Days of Wine and Roses, HatFul of Rain, Man with the Golden Arm. Something that caused all that trouble...so went my youthful reasoning....had to feel awfully good. And I attached a kind of romance to it. I wanted that kind
of life. The hard times, CT WD and all that, seemed a splendid test of manhood

When the later 60s hit, I was primed and ready. My prep school roommate and I...he was even unhappier than I was....read about morning glory seeds and their LSD like properties. I was 14 at the time. We went down to the local WoolWorth's and stole some seed packets. It was the best experience of my life at the time. Or so I thought.

I was off and running.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:40 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2840
Location: Southwest
My unofficial guess is that the Buprenorphine covers the same MU receptors that alcohol stimulates. It makes sense to me. When I was first induced I swear I could have stopped any habit or addiction in those first few days. Even eating didn't appeal to me. That's because my doc gave me too much. A few weeks later after I tapered down by one pill I kind of normalized to it. Then it's been business as usual.

Being an already non drinking alcoholic, there was no cravings to drink. I haven't had a decent craving for booze since my utter surrender back in '87. Now opiates is a different matter and we know the story about that.

Me too SisterMorphine. My childhood was riddled with drug use. In 7th grade I was huffing. By age 15 I had overdosed on LSD and ended up on Thorazine for 2 weeks. A month later I took some more on the day our men landed on the moon. (1969) I remember looking up, high on Acid and wondering if I was going to go back to the hospital. Crazy times. Nightmare times. Amazing how I lived through it all. And of course my poor parents who didn't know what to do but ground me. I just smoked dope in my room during the whole time.

rule

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:10 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:43 am
Posts: 192
Wow! Incredibly thoughtful post Godfrey!

I always enjoy reading your posts!!


I agree with Rule, Ive always assumed Buprenmorphine covered the same receptors responsible for wanting to drink or use any any mind altering substance.

I drank LOTS when I was younger. My first taste was at about age 8. But, I began drinking regularly at age 13. I honestly never liked it though....and, I was an awful drinker....got deathly sick 90% of the time. I've completed in-patient, out-patient programs, private therapy, spiritual retreats, and methadone. I've had a year here and there of clean time. But, I always gave myself outs.....I can drink socially, I'll be able to take pain meds "when needed", I can do speed for energy.

I hurt myself so badly right before inducing on Sub, that I FINALLY fully surrendered. I admitted that I was completely powerless and allowed this med to truly help me. And, after decades of feeling horrible and trying to mask my feelings with substances....I FINALLY feel normal. And, I FINALLY have the courage to figure out why I ever began using in the first place.

I too developed an appreciation for the taste of bourbon later in life. Every once in a blue moon, I think "It would be nice to have wine with this nice dinner". Or, a beer with crawfish sounds appealing. I still feel very awkward going to a party and NOT drinking. And, Mardi Gras parades seem extremely overrated when you're sober. But, I just try to remember how much my life has improved while on Sub when I have one of these passing thoughts.

Very early in Sub treatment, I went outta town for a conference. All my colleagues were enjoying a nice dinner and having drinks. (I believe I was taking 24mg back then). I ended up drinking a pretty small glass of bourbon. I didn't feel buzzed or anything. But, the next morning I was so sick I barely made it on the plane. I puked almost the entire morning. Haven't drank since then.

I ultimately believe being abstinent from other substances is a personal decision. But, for me.....I've always been too frightened to awaken that "sleeping monster". I've tried just about every drug over my lifetime. When I began using opiates, it felt like the love/acceptance I'd always lacked. After many years on Buprenmorphine maintenance, I'm looking within myself for true happiness and strength. Maybe one glass of wine or a random beer wouldn't sabotage that....but, I don't wanna find out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:44 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
rule and marie,

I can identify with both of you guys so much. Marie, I might have written much of your post myself, so familiar does it sound. I gave myself outs all the time...little rules so I could have 2 drinks on saturday night say, or smoke a little weed on Wednesday because it was the middle of the week :D stupid stuff like that.

I had to have those rules, because the thought of life without some sort of escape hatch seemed too hellish to bear. The social stuff was part of it, I'm friendly in a small group of people I know, but large parties etc. are almost unbearable. My wife is the same way, which is fortunate. I think it makes marriage much tougher when one partner enjoys a big social life with lots of people and the other's the quiet type. We're both major introverts. I used to beat myself up for that, which is so misguided. Hell, it's who I am. If i can't at least part way accept that I'm in real trouble.

I have so many bad memories around drinking. It's really a terrible, terrible drug. I actually think opiates are
a great drug...for those of us who enjoy such things :D ...with one major flaw: increasing tolerance. I sometimes think the world would be saved...no more wars, mo more terrible pain, no more terrorists (because they'd be so blissed out...if that could only figure out a way to stop opiate tolerance, then add it
to the water supply.

But I suppose that's just the twisted musings of a lifelong addict. Some folks might just object to being force-fed narcotics :D . (party poopers!)

I enjoy reading your posts too Marie!

Rule, if by chance you're still reading, I feel terrible about my parents too. I made their life hell. In fact, both my brothers and I did. Once we all hit 13 or 14 it was all over....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:38 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2840
Location: Southwest
Godfrey, I really think we are doppelgangers. Way too many similar experiences but then the halls of AA are filled with our kind.

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:03 am 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:25 am
Posts: 160
I have a glass of wine twice, maybe three times per year. I had one on my birthday last week. One glass is my limit and I need to have it with a meal. I never liked the feeling of being drunk, but I love the taste of wine and scotch, sometimes a beer. I used to drink quite often-I worked in a bar and my spouse is an alcoholic so he would always want dates to be at the bar. I actually got a DUI a few years ago-I was drunk and I NEEDED( I just had to go, couldn't wait until I slept it off) to go pick up some pills. To this day, I haven't told anyone that is where I was trying to go-I just say "I don't remember". My doctor is aware that I will have a drink every once in a while and has talked to me about how easy one addiction could replace another. I live with an alcoholic so I would never drink in the presence of him, never bring it home, never drink to where he would be able to smell it on my breath. I also usually have my daughter with me so I will not have a drink if she is around. If it's a full moon, the stars align just right, if it's Tuesday, no spouse, no daughter, and a special occasion-maybe, just maybe I might have a drink.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:34 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:33 pm
Posts: 55
Some interesting research on bupe and alcoholism. I would've thought it plausible that fully occupying/blocking the mu receptors might reduce the urge to drink (after all, naltrexone has been used for alcoholism for years).

But some preliminary research in rats suggests an alternative mechanism:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16533497
CONCLUSIONS:
Buprenorphine has dualistic effects on ethanol drinking; low doses increase alcohol intake via stimulation of classic opioid receptors, whereas higher doses reduce it via activation of NOP receptors. We suggest that NOP agonistic properties of buprenorphine might be useful in the treatment of alcoholism. (granted, this is rats, not people)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:01 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
rule, good to know I'm not the only screw ball in the world :D

Mouse, that's extremely interesting. Thanks for that. For my money, bupe would make an excellent medication for alcoholics. Of course the flaws in such a use in people who are not opiate addicts are self evident.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:38 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:33 pm
Posts: 55
I actually know a doctor (as an acquaintance, not a patient) who is a liver transplant specialist at the VA here in California. He has used buprenorphine off-label to treat at least a few alcoholics. But these were not garden-variety alcoholics - these were late-stage alcoholics who'd already had cirrhosis/liver failure from alcoholism (and sometimes were drinking again AFTER they'd had a transplant). These were people who would be dead VERY soon if they continued drinking.

These patients had been through every available treatment modality for alcoholism, cycled in and out of AA for years with only limited success (e.g. one stopped drinking through intensive inpatient detox/rehab and AA for the six months required before his transplant, but then started drinking almost immediately after he had a new liver).
Given the life-or-death stakes and alcohol's toxicity to the liver, this doctor believed that stable opioid dependence (like buprenorphine provides) was a good trade.

I'm not sure what doses he used (I imagine he couldn't start opioid-naive patients on a high-dose formulation like Suboxone), but he's had enough success with bupe in alcoholics to tell me about it when I asked his opinion on the drug a week or two ago.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:37 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
mouse,

I noticed the lack of interest in alcohol almost immediately. Not that I'm typically bothered by cravings for a drink. I was sort of surveying my mental landscape to see if I could identify other changes in addition to the repressed opiate urge. I remember brining to mind a half pint bottle of Jim Beam, which I used to very nearly guzzle back in my hay day youth. Maybe 3 or 4 pulls was all it took. Intense bourbon heat would radiate upwards from my stomach. Almost instantly the world was a much better place.

But now the image of that bottle did absolutely nothing for me. In fact, there was a slight feeling of revulsion instead.

Not that I was in danger of drinking at this point I don't believe (of course one can't ever say for sure), but it's still a nice bonus. I think your doctor friend is brilliant....and evidently very caring. Booze is such a poisonous
substance. I recently found that an old AA friend of mine had died. The last time I spoke with him he was once again back on the bottle. I really believe he was a hopeless case. Maybe bupe could have saved him.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:55 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:33 pm
Posts: 55
Brilliant? Maybe. He'd already had success w/bupe treating his hep C (injection drug user) cases. I suspect that if he could've gotten away with it, he would've happily prescribed ANY controlled substance that might substitute for alcohol.

The book about the Kellogg Clinic (blanking on the name) described a woman who ordered her husband the cure for alcoholism from the Sears-Roebuck catalog. The 'cure' for alcoholism was opium. Then, when he developed 'morphinism', the wife ordered the Sears Roebuck cure for opium addiction. And it was - you guessed it - alcohol! And we've all known alcoholics who've stopped drinking and started doing opiates - or vice versa. So to some extent there's a long history of opiates substituting for alcohol. When opiates can be given in a stable and safe way, they certainly don't cause the damage that alcohol does.

But until there are studies showing (1) efficacy for alcoholism (lowered drinking, longer periods of sobriety, etc); (2) decrease in morbidity/mortality (showing that creating the new dependency is worth the risk); and (3) whether they need to be on a ceiling dose or whether lower doses suffice, and how best to induct an opiate-naive patient to those doses, I would NOT expect doctors to be willing to prescribe it for garden-variety alcoholics. Right now there's little more than anecdotes to suggest its efficacy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:42 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
Quote:
....I would NOT expect doctors to be willing to prescribe it for garden-variety alcoholics. Right now there's little more than anecdotes to suggest its efficacy.


No of course not. Which is why I commend your doctor friend. There are many different kinds of brilliance. One of them is moral brilliance, sometimes known as wisdom. There's no question that given the choice between opiate addiction and alcohol, opiates would be the way to go at least when it comes to the relative damage to body and mind they cause. You make the same point. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that booze is toxic to every organ in the body, including of course the brain. Long term Addicts who are able to afford their daily drugs are in my opinion largely indistinguishable from every one else. On the other hand I'd have no trouble recognizing a chronic alcoholic.

At first glance, bupe seems a reasonable method of treatment for drunks who are next door to killing themselves. As I said above, except for a few like your friend, it's more than likely that no one will try at least for the time being.

By the way, I think it was Sigmund Freud who hailed cocaine as a sure cure for morphine addiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:19 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:33 pm
Posts: 55
I'd agree with you about opiate/tranquilizer addicts who can get a stable supply (I vaguely remember some study from Switzerland where addicts maintained on heroin were just as stable and productive as those maintained on methadone - many of their problems had come from the criminal lifestyle, not the substance itself). But from what I've seen, very few stimulant addicts, esp w/ meth, are able to resemble ordinary, functioning people. Stims seem more like alcohol, in that stable dependency without brain damage is almost impossible.

I wasn't meaning to patronize you by explaining why docs (with a few exceptions) aren't prescribing bupe now to alcoholics . My annoyance is that those studies AREN'T being done, by anyone. I see tons of preliminary studies on various pharmacological treatments for different types of substance use disorders and there's never any funding for the large scale follow-up studies that would be necessary to show efficacy.
It would prob take a pharmaceutical co like RB to really invest in studying bupe for alcoholism, but unless they could get a patent extension for a new indication, I don't see why they would.

I know plenty of doctors who wish they had more freedom to experiment, to think outside of the box, esp w/ controlled subs. But nobody wants the DEA breathing down their neck! Thus far, the doctors I've met who are most willing to think outside the box are those with impeccable credentials, usually with ties to prestigious academic institutions like UCSF or Stanford. They seem to feel less threatened by the DEA than the private practitioners who could be bankrupted by a DEA or licensing board action against them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: bupe and booze
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:53 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
Didn't feel patronized mouse. No worries. I enjoy your posts.

It occurs to me there's another side to this, which is that it's rather amazing....one might also say a tad weird...to take a medication that somehow switches off an urge that's been an important part of my makeup for almost my entire life. I identify as an alcoholic and a drug addict (yes, it's redundant but why fight it), just as fundamentally as I think off myself as an introvert say, or someone who loves movies.

What else can they shut off if they put their collective minds to it? Alternatively what can the add?
Am I crazy, or looked at in a certain light, is it a tad scary, how easily we can be altered. To tell you the truth, I'm kind of freaking myself out :D


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
cron
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group