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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:56 pm 
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Hi Everyone,
So thanks again for your words of encouragement. I wanted to post an update. I have gotten myself on a regular schedule of dosing twice a day for the last few weeks I'm really happen I've stuck to it. I am down from 24-32mg to 18mg a day, tapering every 7-10 days. The regular schedule seems to have evened out my W/D issues except for .....last night. Been taking my regular dose, no more. The only thing different is (sorry guys) I had my "cycle" this week and it always throws everything in whack, physically, medically, etc. So last night I had some stomach issues after work, no big deal. And I was feeling really shaky and had anxiety but I didn't think anything of it. When I was getting ready for bed, all of a sudden....here comes the feeling. The W/Ds coming over me rapidly. It's very similar to the breakthru W/Ds from my old using days. You know that feeling. I don't really understand because I've been on a regular schedule and nothing was different. I tried not to panic, keep calm. I ended up taking 6 mg (3/4 of a film) and it stopped and I was able to go to sleep. This morning I took a little less than my normal does, 12 mg. Today was the day I was supposed to drop to 16 mg. My question is....why all of a sudden would I get these breakthru W/Ds? And do I continue on in my taper to 16mg, and only take extra if I get W/Ds? It's so scary when it's unpredictable. I have a little extra in case it happens again. Any advice would help. The sooner I can taper off, the better. I notice my anxiety (not about having enough meds, but I have a regular spike in anxiety every afternoon) is getting progressively worse while on sub, so I just want to taper off. I'm also a little worried that if these breakthru W/Ds keep happening, I might run out of meds. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Thanks for any advice you can give if you've experienced the same thing.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:55 am 
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Many times those symptoms are completely psychological, and they can be 'extinguished' if you don't act on them. If you take more buprenorphine in response to them, they get worse. Try to distract yourself as soon as they occur; watch an episode of Seinfeld, pick up your room, check emails-- anything to get your mind OFF the symptoms. Real withdrawal gets worse and worse; these symptoms usually disappear if you stop thinking of them for 10 minutes or so. Your mind must be diverted though-- or they will just build until you act on them.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:48 am 
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Hi Steph,

I tried to respond to your post yesterday but I was having internet issues. I agree with Dr. J completely. I really think your problems have more to do with anxiety than real WD. At 16mgs you should still be well above the ceiling level of bupe. There's no way you should experience any type of actual WD with those kind of blood levels. I'm curious if you are in any type of counseling with a doctor that understands how suboxone works? Did you read that thread I mentioned in my last response to you?

the-ceiling-t6168.html

I know that it makes no sense to our addict brain that taking more isn't better, but with this drug it really is true! Once you really understand that, I think you will be able to relax a bit and not worry so much about dropping while you are on these large doses.

HTH,

Q

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:58 am 
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Hi,

I did read your posts and I agree that some of my anxiety can be psychological. But this was real full blown withdrawal, getting worse and worse. I waited to see what would happen and I just kept getting sicker. And it wasn't just anxiety; it was the all over my body buzzing feeling, sudden diarrhea, rapid heart beat, nose running, everything. The next day I felt like I always do after w/ds. I'm going to continue on with my taper but I knows some of this isn't in my head. I've always been sensitive to any meds so the quicker I can taper the quicker I can get to a more appropriate dose. It's just scary when it hits out of the blue.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:58 pm 
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Hi Steph,

I agree with QH; every post I've read from Q has been spot on, very accurate. The higher doses may be contributing to your anxiety. I can relate: sub makes me anxious too. I often wonder if it's partially due to our brains healing from opiate abuse, in combination with the sub. Either way, stick with it. Maybe try to stay at your current dose a few more days, then try to drop again once you are feeling stable? Maybe you had those breakthrough WDs because your drops were finally catching up to you. I've had this happen. I felt stable for several days after a drop and then all of a sudden, WHAM, WDs set in, even though I'd reduced a week earlier and had not felt many symptoms. The good thing is that they usually dissipate a few hours later.

I know it's tough when this happens. Our first instinct as addicts is to take more, because our brains are telling us "you need to feel better RIGHT NOW," even though in most cases, if you wait it out, that feeling goes away.

Try to wait it out if this happens again. I know it sucks, but keep telling yourself that it will pass, you will adjust to the lower dose, you WILL get through it. Every time I've dropped, when the symptoms set in, I keep saying this to myself.

Of course I'm no expert, but it sounds like the WDs set in later because your body was still adjusting to a lower dose, even though it had been a while since you'd dropped. I know it's really, really hard, but try to push through and if you have to take a "rescue dose," then try to go back to your lower dose the next day.

You can do this! It's not easy, but it can be done. Just reading the experiences of people on this forum has shown me that it's doable. We just have to stay strong and push through it.

Best of luck to you. Keep posting if it helps; anything to create encouragement and give yourself the strength to continue! You can do it!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:52 pm 
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Steph, you've realy got to try and trust us here. Rather than convincing yourself that you are suffering actual opiate withdrawls, which in very strong likelihood you are not, I would strongly suggest convincing yourself this is not physical but phycological. Is there any way this could be actual opiate withdrawl? The chances are so slim you really have a better shot at winning a grand or two in the lottery. We've been through it and seen it as have countless others. You are trying so hard to convince yourself this is withdrawl. Convince yourself that it's not. For one thing diarea is one of the last symptoms people get. For you it happened right away. How large are your pupils? Are they at all dialated? How long after you take the sub dose do you feel better?

I'm not at all minimizing what youre going through as I know it seems real as hell to you but unless you are swallowing your dose of sub immediately rather than under your tongue for ten minutes this is not withdrawl. Try to follow what dr. J said about distracting yourself while thinking "this is not real withdraws, this is not real withdrawls, I'm going to be fine in ten minutes." Then don't think about it, call someone and talk for ten minutes and you'll see you feel better. I promise you are not feeling sub withdrawl. Try to trust us on that.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:02 pm 
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I really appreciate everyone writing in. We're going to have to agree to disagree here. It's not psychological, it's not in my mind. It only makes sense that having gone up to such a high dose, 28-32 mgs a day, to tapering now to 16 mg (my current dose) in 2 1/2 weeks, that I am going to experience some symptoms. I get the ceiling effect, I am an intelligent and reasonable person. But it only makes sense that the after taking the higher doses which produced extra sedation, that warm feeling in your toes, some energy, etc, would have the opposite feelings coming down on dose. Thru the roof anxiety. I went to bed the other night and woke up at 3:30 am with massive diarrhea, cold sweats, racing heart rate and massive anxiety attack. I see post after post on here of people experiencing the same symptoms. Are you seriously saying everyone is just bringing this on themselves with their mind? Come on. It doesn't go away in 10 minutes. Some more minor symptoms come and pass in 10 minutes, but these episodes don't stop. It's just really scary. I'm starting to feel like I can't go anywhere besides work and church because I'll be out with family and these side effects will kick in. But I go anyway to get my mind off of it.
I'm still continuing my taper. I'm not running to take more meds and more meds. I'm riding it out. But it's real. This medicine is a good tool but it's a powerful opiate and it's nothing to mess around with. Having said that, I got myself into this mess. I am taking it day by day. Today I woke up with to the bone chills and every joint in my body hurt and was throbbing, burning with pain. But I stuck to my dose. It just makes me feel very alone when I reach out here to ask question and you tell me it's in my mind. I've lost 20 pounds in the last 2 1/2 months on sub because it kills my appetite on good days, and on bad days when I have a W/D episode, I'm so sick with nausea I can't eat. I've been totally honest with my primary doc about everything. She prescribes clonidine and zofran and that helps when I get sick. I just hate how unpredictable it is from day to day. I have normalized my dose and take it at the same time every day, tapering every 7-10 days. But still, I've had 2 episodes since doing that in the last week. But the quicker I taper, the quicker I can get off it and not have this med have a hold over my life.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:03 pm 
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I meant to say thank you, Bad Kitty. I think you're right. The taper is catching up to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:30 pm 
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Steph

I had a similar experience when trying to taper off pain pills. The doctor did give me the same comfort meds that helped at times. My anxiety was already severe, everyday I had panic attacks - it was really awful.

Reading that you want to get off fast, this may not be an option for you but i am going to throw it out there. What if you tapered slower? Tiny increments instead of 2 mg's at a time. It may be easier on your body & mind. I also think when you get to a certain level your anxiety will get better. I read a thread somewhere that this women just cut off a tiny piece of her film - super tiny and held there for a month then rinse & repeat.

Can you get another appointment with the doctor to get more meds ? Weigh the pro's & con's about how to taper the best way for you and your symptoms.

I know you can do it!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:07 pm 
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Steph,
How are you doing with your taper? I'm sorry to hear that you are having so many WD symptoms during your taper. That must be miserable!! :(

What dose are you at currently? I know once I reached about 3mg that's when my taper actually got more difficult.

I found that what helped me must was going extremely slow in lowering my dose. Now that I'm on my way off the last .5mg ive started using the liquid taper method.

I REALLY wish I had started a liquid taper even at a higher dose. I feel like it gives a person so much more accuracy and control in the amount you're actually dosing. That way you can drop the doses by even smaller amounts, making the drops barely noticeable. Something to think about anyway.

Anyway, hope you are feeling good today and wishing you continuing success with your taper!

-fishy


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:27 pm 
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Steph,

I'm not saying that none of the symptoms you describe are happening, or that they are completely in your mind. Nor do I think that everyone who complains with WD's while tapering are lying. But, I'm not sure where you are seeing post after post of people claiming such dramatic wd's when they are still dosing above the ceiling. That's just not true.

If you will go and read threads from people who have actually tapered below 4mg's or gotten completely off subs, you will see almost 100% of them say they had no real wd symptoms until they got below 4mg. More often we see no serious issues until below 2mg.

Our goal in explaining this to you was not to make you feel attacked, but to help you better understand how this drug works. The better you understand it, the better prepared you can be to fight through this whole process.

We can indeed agree to disagree. I'm sure you will find support from a few other members here.

Good luck with your taper,

Q

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:45 pm 
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Hi Steph,

Just wanted to say that you are definitely not alone in this. I just had three horrid days of breakthrough WDs, for no apparent reason since I'd reduced my dose 8 days earlier. I managed to suffer through it, as you have, but I know it wasn't in my head either. Same symptoms that you've had too. I really don't understand why this happens, but I completely understand your frustration. I've made sure my doses were accurate, dosed properly, same time everyday, etc. and I still suffered surprise breakthrough WDs for no apparent reason. It is so frustrating!

The only thing I can think of is the same theory that our tapers just eventually catch up to us, unexpectedly and without any real pattern or reason other than our bodies are saying, "I am all of a sudden feeling this smaller dose and now you are going to suffer for a few days. Ouch!"

Whatever the reason, I just wanted to say that I feel your pain and no, it's definitely not in your head. I know these last few days of suffering were not in my head, that's for sure.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:51 pm 
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One more thing: Q is right when she says that most people don't feel WDs until below 2mg, that is me for sure. But, everyone is different, so you may just be feeling them at a higher dose because your body is more sensitive to it. Who knows, since everyone's experience seems to be different.

But I hope you are feeling better. Hang in there; this isn't forever. I keep telling myself that. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:57 pm 
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Thank you guys so much! So I have had to go back to 18mg, that 2 1/4 films. My body has it adjusted to where I can't make it thru the night with out a small afternoon dose. I started sweating at 3pm and have a major anxiety spike. So I've cut out caffeine and take 2-4 mg in the late afternoon. Yesterday I thought was going to be rough. I've started stretching the time as much as possible between doses so I have enough for the afternoon and it is helping. I had a meeting yesterday with my boss and I started to get that loud noise in my ears, crushing headaches, sweating, shaking, etc. Finally my dose kicked in and it got better except the anxiety. I thought I would be in for a bad night, but suddenly around 6pm all symptoms cleared. And I was so proud for not taking more meds! So it gave me some hope. I have a dr. Appt on Monday and I'm going to ask him to up my dose a bit, just so I can slow my taper. My body is not ready for 16mg yet. So next week my family will be out of town (I'm in escrow to buy a new house and living with family) and I'm taking two days off work. I'm thinking of jumping from 18 to 12 or 14mg during that time and taking the 4 or 5 days to go thru the W/Ds. I just want get under the dose I am currently prescribed so I don't have to worry about it. What do you think? I agree with Q and Dr J, the high dose is part of the problem.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:02 pm 
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How do you do a liquid taper? I think I should start that once I'm in my own house again. And I agree--as much as I don't want to, I think I have to slow it down.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Hi steph!
Just wanted you to know I'm thinking of ya! I agree with the good Dr. And Q (on pretty much everything sub related actually) that once you get to a realistic dose that keeps you above the ceiling, you will feel MUCH better and be able to start reaping the many benefits of being on sub therapy.

In the meantime, best of luck and just wanted to let you know there was another person cheering for you out here!

Xo
Fishy


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:10 pm 
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Steph,
The liquid taper is a fantastic way to dose once a person reaches small doses like 2mg and under
I unfortunately didn't start mine until I was at .5mg and so far so good! It's been six days today and I'm down to .3mg and pretty much WD free except for right in the mornings when I am first waking up.

I have posted my own liquid taper thread in the stopping Suboxone section. I can't remember what is called and I'm not smart enough to know how to post a link :( haha!

There are other threads in there about liquid tapering and a lot of useful information. I've been having a fairly easy go of it at these small doses so I'm hoping my thread will give others hope when and if they ever feel the need to discontinue subs.

However, I don't agree that stopping Suboxone is a good choice for everyone so I encourage everyone to really make their own decisions on that issue. In fact, if after a while off sub I feel a pull in the direction of my old ways starting to lead me towards active addiction, I have no qualms about going back on subs indefinitely. But I will never actually know for sure until I try...

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions or if you just need to vent ;)

Do
Fishy


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:25 pm 
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steph1850 wrote:
Hi,

I did read your posts and I agree that some of my anxiety can be psychological. But this was real full blown withdrawal, getting worse and worse. I waited to see what would happen and I just kept getting sicker. And it wasn't just anxiety; it was the all over my body buzzing feeling, sudden diarrhea, rapid heart beat, nose running, everything. The next day I felt like I always do after w/ds. I'm going to continue on with my taper but I knows some of this isn't in my head. I've always been sensitive to any meds so the quicker I can taper the quicker I can get to a more appropriate dose. It's just scary when it hits out of the blue.


anywho they will kick me off for this but if I help one person then so be it.

Edited by Qhorsegal2 - Subjunkie is correct, I have indeed banned him. As a note to other members who think their false accusations will be left on the forum to "help others"...don't waste your time.

Ha Ha! I was trying to move the post while you were editing it! Now I know why it didn't work! -Amy


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:20 pm 
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Thank you Fishy! It means so so much to get
Feedback from someone who's been there. For the most part life is great. I am sober, I am doing so well at work, I am out of the abusive relationship I was in with the guy who gave me opiate. I go to my meetings, I was able to
Sell me house and I've lost 20 pounds and look and feel healthy. I just need to get down to a manageable dose. I was able to get off sub once before but I never took more than 2mg every other day so it was easy to stop. Ironically I learned about the effects of high doses
At rehab and like a dummy, went home and tried it. I am definitely going to look into a liquid taper when I get
To 2mg. Ex junkie, I really wondered about that very fact as I'm seeing a pattern on this site.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:48 pm 
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Steph!
Way to go!!!! You have accomplished SO MUCH already! Just be easy on yourself, and you will continue to get there. So proud of you, those are changes few people have the courage and willpower to make in life... Addict or not :) you should be so proud, and when you're feeling moments of weakness, just think of all the amazing ways you have taken charge and made positive changes for yourself already. Shit, write them all down if y have to! Even if you have to write them down everyday to remind yourself :) keep up the awesome work!
Xo fishy


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