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 Post subject: Oh Boy Bugging You Again
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:36 am 
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Well, the plan is to start the Suboxone tomorrow and I'm EXTREMELY nervous. I just can't see how this little film strip has a chance in hell of taking care of Oxycodone withdrawals. I guess I'm just so used to knowing that the only thing that will take care of Oxycodone withdrawals is, well, Oxycodone (or Hydrocodone - that has helped as well I guess for obvious reasons). Well you all know by now that my mind has wrapped itself around the fear of this "precipitated withdrawal" business, and you know I've talked to the doctor and pharmacist who both have never heard of it and said to just take the Suboxone at the next dose of normally Oxycodone (four hours). So I talked with my sister today. She knows a doctor, and her daughter-in-law works as a pharmacy tech.

Her daughter-in-law talked to the pharmacist who apparently HAS heard of them, but he said this business about waiting soooo long into moderate withdrawals is silliness (don't kill the messenger here, I'm just relating what he said). He said yes, wait for mild withdrawals, really just when you start feeling jumpy and wanting another dose of your usual - not until you're sweating, crapping, jumping out of your skin, etc. So we called the doctor my sister knows. He's not a pain management doctor and doesn't directly prescribe this, but he does treat patients for other things who also see another doctor that does prescribe it to them. He said he's had a couple ask about it before, but he told my sister he'd call back later, which he did. He called a PM doctor who does regularly prescribe it who also has heard of PWs. He said that doctor, like many of you here, was pretty stunned that my doctor had never even heard of it. However, he ALSO said it is not necessary to be in torture before taking the Suboxone. He has heard of some doctors making patients wait up to 24 hours, but he said the science just doesn't support that in my case on short-acting Oxycodone. He said just to be on the safe side, wait about 6 hours or when you get that jumpy need another dose feeling (which for me THAT actually starts around around just FOUR hours after my last dose). Basically, go to be at night and take it when you wake up. That doctor said he has heard of some having PWs but it's just not very common. He also suspected they probably took like 1-2 hours after maybe or tried something with it they shouldn't have, or something else.

So I'm just going to be honest with you in terms of what I intend to do, and all I can do is cross my fingers and HOPE because I really want this to work. I've brought my Oxycodone dose down over the last couple of days a bit, and I've actually been feeling slight withdrawals on the lower dose. I also just tried each of the past two mornings to see how long I could do before taking the Oxycodone, trying my best to be objective on the COWS. Each time 10 hours was about it. I was only at maybe a 5 on the COWS, but that coming out of skin/edgy/watery eyes/CONSTANT yawning was just too much. Especially the whole coming out of your skin feeling - you all know there just are no words. Or maybe I was being OVERLY objective and scoring too low, I don't now.

Anyway, I "THINK" I could push it to 12 hours. But I know me, and I'd be lying if I said, "Oh man yeah I'm gonna push beyond that too." My sister told the doctor that actually (the PM doctor who kindly did do a free phone consult with us but can't take any more patients right now), and he said that would be plenty and he would be greatly surprised if PWs happened not only then but even at that 10 hour mark. He did say there is no magic number on the time, but for argument's sake he told us that PWs are usually a concern when we're talking ridiculously close to the previous dose - like 1-3 hours after. He said he does wait for his patients to at least begin mild withdrawals, on average (again he said very subjective - sometimes a bit more sometimes less) about 6 hours. He specified this was only with the short-acting. He said when we're talking about Methadone, Oxycontin (not -done), etc., then the story does change.

Oh, like most of you, he did also say that 24mg daily seemed rather outrageous to him. He said he understands initial dosing being up to at least 8mg. He said on the rare off chance that PW does happen, there were be two things: 1) It would happen VERY quickly after induction, like the first couple of minutes and 2) It would last about an hour as the Suboxone continued punting the other off and binding. Again, he emphasized he would not expect that at 10 to 12 hours like I'm waiting. Anyway, if it does, he said it would be fine to take another 4mg, give it an hour or two, and then another 4mg if needed, though he honestly didn't expect it.

I've read other sites the Internet, and I've noticed something (but not here, I don't think). When pressed, most of the people talking about being careful have never actually been through PWs themselves but are only operating on what they've read, hearsay, or what friends or friends of friends have told them about their experience. Maybe that says something, I don't know.

In any case, tomorrow is the day. I've talked and read online and talked to others in person. If I go into PWs between the 10-12 hour mark (and at that point I WILL absolutely be in mild to early moderate WDs), well then I guess I'm just screwed. It's VERY easy to get hyped about these things online, and I'm trying to balance that into the equation as well. Please understand I don't mean that to offend anyone here. You're help and advice have been and will continue to be greatly appreciated, and I hope to continue learning and contributing. But it IS the Internet, and we all know only our nicknames and what we write.

I'll be updating tomorrow as this goes along.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:36 am 
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DEAR SS:
I think you are making this way too hard....I was taking 20 hydros a day and I told my Dr. I had to take 4 just to drive
over to see him....he asked me how many hydros i would need to get through the rest of the day and i lied and said 4..
so the dr. wrote me a script for 4 10mg hyros and a script for subutex...He told me to take the hydros that day and
when I woke up the next morning to take the subutex....and sent me on my way....that would be 12 hours....
At th at time I did not know anything about PW?? ....so I took the subutex the next am...((8mg))...and I could not
believe what happened...It was like a miracle happened...that first time I took it I got a high feeling that lasted all day...
I did not even think about hydros (( a 20 year habit))...and from then on I did not get high but felt normal for the first
time in my life...that was 4 years ago and i am still on the sub...about 6mg a day and never think about hydros..when that
was all i could think about in the past...

I really believe if you wait 12 hours and take the sub...you will be fine....

I would suggest to just go for it and you will have this new feeling like never before...this is the only thing that has EVER
WORKED FOR ME!! I have been to treatment centers, AA AND NA..counseling, everything but this pill is the only thing
that made me quit my habit...I have no idea when I will get off of it...but I know i am not ready after 3 years...

this stuff works...and you can lead a normal life..without having to search for your drugs everyday and hide and lie and
do all that stuff that we do as addicts...

I would say just go for it after 12 hours...and quit thinking so much about what might happen...that is your brain trying
to get you to stay w here you are...trust me..it works , it really does!!

Sincerely,
Slipper

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:42 am 
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Slipper, thanks so much for your input. I took the Oxycodone dose at 10:00, fell asleep at 1:00, and woke up at 4:00 in the standard mild withdrawals (6 hours later). The timing was just really screwed up, and I wasn't comfortable because of all this crap I've read taking at at 6 hours. But I obviously have to get back to sleep and wouldn't be able to do without doing something, so I took another Oxycodone dose and should be able to get back to sleep by 6:00. Don't know how long I'll sleep then. Just my luck this would be the night before. Anyway, when I wake up hopefully much later (10:00 or 11:00 I hope), I will as usual be in mild withdrawals but I'm going to push it as long as I can and desperately try to hit the 4:00 12 hour mark to induct, trying as hard as I can not to do it before the 2:00 10 hour mark in any case. I'll keep an objective check on the COWS, but I'm sure after 2:00 or so I'll be well into that "crawling out of my skin" bit.

I think you're right. To be honest, I almost wish I didn't see anything about PWs. My mind has just really grabbed hold of that as an ENORMOUS fear. When I do put that first strip under my tongue, I can see myself shaking and praying to any universal force that it doesn't happen.

In all likelihood, I suspect even at 6 hours when I woke up I probably would have been just fine (I'm accustomed to dosing every 3 hours, and that's double that which probably explains why mild WDs always are already kicking in by then), but my head does what it does.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:32 am 
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Ya dude just relax you will be just fine. It is however a little different if a person is pumped full of Dones, or methadone.
12 hrs should suffice and I think you will be relived once you see. Don't psych yourself out man.

Here's to feeling better!!

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 Post subject: Not Gonna Make It
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:03 am 
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Well, I couldn't get back to sleep after the 4 a.m. dose. Since I've been tapering the Oxycodone down for the past couple of days, including that dose, I've pretty much been in constant mild withdrawal. I was hoping to go back to sleep, wake up close to at least the 10 hour mark and then induct.

But now it's been 5 hours and I'm beyond coming out of my skin, yawning constantly, eyes water, some runs. But of course my head is stuck on the PW possibility for too early, so I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have to do today on Oxycodone again and try to get enough sleep tonight to start tomorrow.

I just can't see any way in hell of making 10-12 hours right now. It's only 5 and I'm already going nuts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:40 am 
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Swap...your all ready sick it sounds..it is 10:30 my time..if you wait til noon you be ready!!!
You can do this man...

Ive inducted 3friends of mine in the past.mild wd was fine for them.start slowly with 2mgs..wait a bit then 2 more..itll work..

Just my 3 cents....good luck...your new lofe is waiting for you my friend....razor.....


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:04 am 
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thanks, doing badly right now, 10;00 here, 6 houts since last dose.

I'm just not seeing how that thing is going to stop this when only Oxycodone does, we'll see.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:30 am 
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snap

since 10 last night you have only taken one dose in the past over 12 hours now probably. Your already in mild-moderate wds (jumping out of skin, yawning, the runs) It sounds to me like your ready for induction. I understand the fear of PW, but like razor said you can start small, but honestly it sounds like your ready. Remember like the pm doctor told you its not about waiting a certain number of hours its more about the state of wds your in.

good luck with your induction!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:32 am 
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Snap, you gotta have just a little faith! Suboxone WILL work for you! If your skin is crawling and you feel crappy, go ahead and dose with your sub! I know you keep expressing doubts that anything besides oxy will satisfy your cravings, but let me tell ya - you are in for one hell of a good surprise! And in case you haven't read it yet - sub is a very very very strong, potent drug. If an opiate-niave person got ahold of a strip, they would probably OD. Sub is no joke.
I know that you are scared of the PWs, but if you are feeling so bad that you feel you must take your oxy then u are prob ready to take the sub.
I will admit I am anxious to hear your response to the sub, but that is only bc I want you to experience that "Ah ha! I feel......NORMAL" feeling that so many of us feel. It truly is a glorious feeling- to feel good, but not high. To feel just normal, and not crave or even think about taking pills! To feel FREE!

Good luck to you, and unless you have already taken your oxy - dont put it off another day! You can do this. You will be fine!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:49 am 
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Snap.........do it...!!! It WILL WORK.....


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:28 pm 
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There were a couple good articles in the Talk Zone section about induction and PW. I don't know if you read those or not.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:58 pm 
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Snap...you are shooting yourself in the foot with all this worry.

Suboxone is a whole lot stronger than oxycodone. Really, oxycodone is only slightly stronger than hydrocodone...I know you are on a higher than usual dose but it's going to cover it no problem. You do realize that this drug takes away WD in Heroine users right? It sounds to me like you should be ready to dose now. As you have mentioned that your doctor told you, the 24 hour deal is more for longer acting opiates like oxyCONTIN, methadone, and heroine users.

Take your 2 or 4mg and you will be fine. Then, as soon as you feel the WD go out the window come on here and we will cheer with you about how much better you feel!

Quit worrying!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Relax
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Snap,

Is it safe to assume you've induced by now? Oh jeez I hope so. All this worry about something so simple makes me want to hold you down and slap you silly! (do I hear a slight applause?) Just throwin' some humor in there, don't react to it.

Be very grateful that it is not three or more years ago. Back then, the doctors were told 18-24 hours before induction from Hydrocodone, and a full 3 DAYS for Oxycodone! Don't quote me on those because that was the opinion of my brothers doctor. My poor brother had to wait three whole days before they'd give him Suboxone. Talk about miserable! So again, be grateful that you can do it with only 12 hours abstinence. BTW, he only received Suboxone for a couple of weeks and then was cut off. His withdrawal then was very bad.

We are anxiously awaiting your next post telling us how wonderful (or weird) you feel. With me, it was awesome. It not only killed my urge for opiates, it killed my urge for everything! After a few days I felt normal again and so will you.

Cross that line and come to our side.

R

P.S. Hey Razor, what's with this 3¢ worth of opinion? Did inflation make it go up? That my friend, is my 4¢ question.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Thanks so much all. I have induced - see new thread "Induced" so it doesn't get jumbled up in this one.

Well, see it in a few anyway, going to type it now. (couldn't see how to delete this so just edited)


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