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 Post subject: Best Suboxone film ROA?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:09 pm 
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I am very happy to see real Dr.'s here helping with these questions. All of the drs I've used over the year had very little knowledge of this treatment so I pretty much on my own. I was taking sub tablets for last 3 years coming off multiple surgeries for massive accident. I started on 4mg then lowered to 2mg once a day. After my last surgery I was really craving something to make me comfortable so started dosing twice a day 2mg each dose. This month I finally got insurance so I getting some help with the massive expense of taking subs. The only problem I found out the ins only covers the sub film strips. So I get my month of meds and trying them for the first time very open minded. To my surprise the usual 2mg dose did absolutely nothing for me what so ever. I talking nothing like I just took a piece of tissue paper. So I try double the dose and still nothing. This getting me nervous and I end up taking the full 8mg. I do feel tiny amount of bup in my system but not enough and it wears off very fast. If I took 8mg of the tablet I would be passed out on the couch all day. How is it that a major pharma company can release a product that clearly does not equal their own product. 8mg of film is not equal to 8mg tabs, not even close. It should be real 8 mg reguardless of format in my opinion. I have read people saying how great the strips are and I wondering if I missing something. Is there some trick to getting the bup out of these. I heard about dissolving in alcohol and making nasal spray or rectal ROA. I just want to feel like I have been for last 3 years and these strips not doing it for me. Any tips will be greatly appreciated. What are some diff methods for the film?


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 Post subject: my method
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:33 pm 
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hello,

sorry this is happening but i think you can make it better. the film was much stronger for me when i switched from tabs. maybe your saliva is washing it down. do you eat or drink after? ive found that not eating or drinking for minimum of 25 min or so is necessary but the addict in me will wait an hour or even 2 sometimes :)

anyways...

a tip i have learned is to place the film where you would put chewing tobacco. the space below your front teeth, in between you gums and front lip. when i was on 8mg i would cut the film in half the long way with a razor or small sharp scissors and then put one to the right and the other to the left of the very center. this space is not flooded with saliva like under the tongue and the film is not touching your teeth when you cut it this way. i noticed i could cut my dose down even further with no effect. one thing i do notice about this was is it does take a bit longer to "kick in" but you can talk as long as your mindful that its in there. bupe will absorb in any mucous membrane in the mouth so this approach is just as effective as under the tongue and IMHO way more effective and convenient and most important for me, always the same. when i was doing under the tongue, sometimes i would have a dry mouth other times a ton of saliva in there. once you get used to it, you're good. the last + i will mention is that you can wake up an hour before you need to get up and put it in there and lay down on your back and go back to sleep. wake up for the day ready to go.

and down the line, if applicable, this method makes tapering so much easier. I take 1/64th of an 8 mg strip at a time (.125mg) and i know it absorbs the same way and i dont have to do the liquid taper method (not that its a bad thing) but i dose 3x per day now and dont want to carry a solution around with me.

:)
gb


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 Post subject: Also
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:35 pm 
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p.s. You dont have to hold in saliva with the method i described above. you can swallow all you want since the saliva doesn't really pool up there.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Hey thanks alot, that tip makes alot of sense. I did find with the strips I had way less saliva and it dissolved faster. The disturbing part is the potency. I feel as if I could take 8 mg and get minimal effect where as with the tablets 4mg would cripple me all day. Something cant be right with these. The box came from pharmacy in regular sealed packages. If I bought these on the street someone would be in grave danger as I would almost consider these fake subs. Hopefully somehow they start working for me because I really wasnt expecting this. My does on tabs was at 2mg for many years. These strips are soo weak I could take the whole box tonight. Its frustrating and thanks for letting me vent on here. I going to try the pack a lipper method now lol. Do you ever dissolve your strips first in water or alcohol? Not sure if that really worth it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:37 pm 
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no problem.

hey obvious question but are your strips 2mg or 8mg ?

i have never dissolved especially in alcohol because i'm an alcoholic as well as an addict and dont want to be tempted.

this method takes a little longer to dissolve, i also sometimes kind of apply a little pressure from the outside with the back of my finger and rub it in a little.

it takes a while to kick in, over an hour for me.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Ya these are the 8mg sub films. I tried 1mg under tongue and 2mg in lip this time. See how it goes. I used to waiting long time specially to eat or drink. This is one part I really dont like about the sublingal. Having to waste almost an hour every time I dose is redicilous. That is why I started to insufflate my tablets. Could be eating, drinking, talking and take med with immediate long lasting results on very low dosage. This film is exact opposite, time consuming super high dose with horrible results. I appreciate your help with this and I a huge fan of suboxone. Until this switch to films I was on cruise control for years. No temptations of any sort. Sub help me stop every drug imaginable and stop drinking. After my injury and surgeries not much to do but medicate. Subs turned all that around and I vrry grateful. This film situation is a huge shock to me. I figured 8mg was really 8 mg. If its soo much weaker the company should adjust it somehow, more meds or diff testing. My insurance covers subutex so I going to switch to that if they let me. Can't go back to the way I was before starting subs.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:15 am 
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Its been hour and half since that dose. I like that lipper method you gave me. It def takes a long time to work but the saliva not such an issue as with reg sublngl. Its working but still very weak considering I took 3mg. With tablet 3 mg would knock me out basically. I have one thing left to try, stop taking sub just for tmrw and bring my level/tolerence down. This way the following day might work better. I used to make 30 tablets last 3-4 months. Lucky if I make a month with these strips the way this is going.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:22 am 
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Cool,

I didn't realize you were insufflating. i would be freaked out putting all those additives up my nose and i cant condone it but the argument has been done to death already.

You're bound to feel a difference taking sublingually.

If you stick it out for a few days (maybe 5) you should even out.

good luck,

gb


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:46 am 
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Ya I not a huge fan insufflating anything and actually only did that recently. The majority of my sub use was done sublingl. I read about the ba being alot higher intranasal so I gave it a try. It was very true alot stronger and able to use way less. Basically 1mg insuff poqder stronger than 6mg strip for some reason. The part I liked with insuff was being able to do the whole pricess in 5 seconds and then eat drink whatever. Sublingl really takes alot of time out of the day. I know there alot of filers in the tabs but my nose wasnt effected too much at all. Thats all over now because of these strips and its probably good to stop insuff. That cant be good to do over long period but was a nice option to have. Maybe those filers were making the tabs stronger because I still see a huge diff in potency with sublingal use. I still have a couple tablets left over so its an easy comparison. Still cant get over a 8mg strip weaker than 2mg tablet. Maybe something good in that filer lol. It probably going to take a while like you said for my body to adjust to the strips to harness their potency. I thinking the pharma company made strips weaker in attempt to get people off the drug. If thats the case should have them listed as tapper meds with lower dosage. I would have requested 16mg a day if I knew it was going to be like this. Now it too late already approved me on 8mg and such a hassel to switch. Might have to wait out the three months and then try switch to subutex. Only other bup covered by my ins.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:17 pm 
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The goal of Suboxone treatment is that it builds up in your system to a steady state so that daily dosing just maintains that state. You are not supposed to "feel" your dose - (and if youre knocked out on the couch all day there is something seriously wrong.) Maybe you have finally reached the point in your treatment when you have leveled out. It usually only takes two weeks or so, but for some people it takes a couple of months.
The majority of people report that the films give them a higher dose and some have to have their dose decreased when they switch to the films. But in your case maybe hitting the ceiling and finally leveling out just happened to coincide with your switch to the films.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Lillyval wrote:
The goal of Suboxone treatment is that it builds up in your system to a steady state so that daily dosing just maintains that state. You are not supposed to "feel" your dose - (and if youre knocked out on the couch all day there is something seriously wrong.) Maybe you have finally reached the point in your treatment when you have leveled out. It usually only takes two weeks or so, but for some people it takes a couple of months.
The majority of people report that the films give them a higher dose and some have to have their dose decreased when they switch to the films. But in your case maybe hitting the ceiling and finally leveling out just happened to coincide with your switch to the films.


I agree with Lilly,,,,,,,

also, the supposid BA of subligual is like 30% of the dose or something? and maybe 60% when ughh I cannot spell it, up the nose, basically...... LOL

so if you were doing 2mg up the nose, your getting LIKE one mg, of it, right?
and let's say three mg sublingual,
your getting BASICALLY the exact same as the other dose UP the nose.

that is MY GUESS on why your "not getting it"

becuz it's the same

that may not make ANY SENSE, if not, Im sorry, just trying to help.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:21 am 
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I take suboxone for pain relief after shattering my whole left side of body in motor cross accident. Regular pain meds became too adictive so I volanteered to switch on to subs. They just keep me loose, make a little more comfortable, and stop me from taking what I should be on -real meds. People stub their toe and get fenylin patches so I think subs for near death skeletal shattering is pretty responsible behavior. I wish you were right about that ceiling effect but its not in this case. I have experimented with many different doses over the 3-4 years on subs. I was reffering to how potent a 4mg dose is for me on the tablets, not that I like being doped out. My usual intake of tablets are 2mg per day. This gives me a feeling like the bup is with me at all times but not over medicated. With the film I can take 8mg sublingal method and I dont feel anything at all. Its very simple comparison because I still have a few tablets. These films from what I gather are an attempt to taper regular tablet users off suboxone. Why else the madatory insurance switch to films. They are clearly not even half the potency of a 8mg tablet so it should be labled as such. This is another recklous example of pharma companies messing with people who depend on them. Lets face it I on subs for life unless they find a cure for titanium pins, rods, and screws fused into your skeleton and 5 surgeries of scar tissue and nerve, tendon, muscle damage. They have been using suboxone for my condition in the UK for many years. Its very new here in usa and most doctors consider it junkie meds like methadone. Pharmacists give you a hard time or deny your scrip meanwhile they taking more pain meds than anyone. Wonder why your phamacist is always soooo happy lol. Ya right they have first dibs on the real meds. I can see why the films would be useful in a tapering situation. It feels like I been forced into a taper right now and thats not going to happen. Was trying to do this the legit way with scrips but might have to get some more tabs to suppliment until next month. Hopefully they let me switch to subutex. These idiot insurance agents were already giving me a hassel because I on subs without seeing psychiotrist. This is new insurance and they have to approve all meds first=royal pain in the ass. What the hell is a psych going to tell me about crippling pain related to a 150 foot dirtbike jump gone wrong? The way I see it if your over 30 and want to take a med why try and stop it. They going to get it one way or another. By denying patients doctors fuel the black market drug trade.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:20 am 
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Rick Balls wrote:
These films from what I gather are an attempt to taper regular tablet users off suboxone. Why else the madatory insurance switch to films.


Why on Earth would Reckit Beckinser want to taper people off of their biggest cash cow?? just the opposite. they spent about a jillion dollars sending their reps and lobbyists to get doctors to prescribe films because the patent on the tablets ran out. they are on record saying the tablets are unsafe, easily diverted and even that they KILL SMALL CHILDREN (look it up). this is so they can corner the bupe market for a few more years and get the DEA to view the generic tablets as evil.

and in the past few years here on the site the general consensus is that the films are a bit stronger than the tabs. maybe you got old meds, a bunk box, maybe they just don't work for you. It even says in the insert pamphlet that patients switching from tabs to film may need their dose lowered. i am one of many, many members here that reported feeling over medicated and loopy after switching to the films, not that i was complaining then.

i dont know if i have seen anybody here in 3 years saying the films are weaker never mind that 2mg tabs are stronger than an 8mg film. i think its clear that if you are used to crushing them and snorting up your nose, yeah the film is going to be weaker. one of the reasons they push so hard for the films is that they are harder to abuse and i believe they view insufflation as abuse.

it sucks you are having such a tough time and in pain, i really do feel for you.

gb


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Like I been saying the majority of my usage with suboxone tablets was sublingal over the last 3-4 years. I might have insufflated two weeks total out of the last 3-4 years. That would mean I used sublingal method 98.97% of my total time on suboxone. That is what I base this comparison of 2mg tablet being stronger than 8mg film. I also have the tablets here right now so I been doing back to back comparing of doses. Today I took 8mg film and absolutely nothing again. Yesterday I took less than 2mg tablet sublingal and it worked as expected. I put as much trust in what a pharma company says as I do in these films. They are the most corrupt drug drealers in the world. Further more I have measured my pupil dialation between the tabs and films. The pupils dont lie and most scientific evidence I can submit on this subject. With the films my pupils dialated to 4.5mm on 8mg dose after 2 hours. The same time on less than 2mg tablet pupils dialated at 2mm. Hard to dispute that evidence. Nobody wants these films to work more than me. That is why its such a huge disappointment. I been taking very low dose for many years and never experience ceiling effect. Now I on 8mg and feeling nothing, thats beyond strange. I def not the only person finding these films weak. Finding similar stories all over the web including this site.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:17 pm 
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i just thought of something.

i tapered from 8mg to where i am now, 0.375mg per day (0.125mg every 8 hours) over about a year so far. when i was on 8mg and even all the way down to 2 or 3 mg, i felt the same (however many people report 4mg and higher as their 'ceiling'). i felt no "effect" from sub above my ceiling- maybe it improved my mood for a few hours after my single daily dose but not by much- i just always felt "normal". however, under the ceiling (for me about 1.5mg per day and under) I needed to switch to split the total dose up into 2x and then 3x per day dosing. at low levels, the sub wears off and i go into mild w/d if i do not dose about every 8 hours. i sometimes forget to take a dose and then when i do take it, i "feel" a pronounced feeling of energy, i might talk a bit more and be more comfortable socially. this happens because below the ceiling, bupe levels in our blood fluctuate, therefore we "feel" the sub, it starts wearing off and we feel it again when we dose.

so if you are used to 2mg doses (fluctuating level of bupe in your system) and then you take 8mg (bupe blood level always over the ceiling, receptors always maxed out) you would just feel "normal" all the time (addiction maintenance dose) think about this: anesthesiologists use bupe in doses of 10-50 MICROgrams, a tiny fraction of a milligram. thats how strong bupe is but the maximum ceiling level effect makes it unique therefore a maintenance dose is 8mg for example (8,000 micrograms)

and we all experience different levels of pupil dilation. when i was at 8mg, my pupils didnt get super small but when i got below the ceiling they became like pins.

this is just a theory i thought of to throw out there. you should let your doctor know whats going on. like i said it is a very unusual situation you are reporting.


-gb


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Ya thats what I looking for, the energy I used to getting from subs. When I wake feel like I 85 years old with all this hardware holding my bones together. The subs would not ever get me high but it gave me energy boost and loosen me up. These films arent giving it to me at any dose and thats why I bent out of shape right now. Impossible to rehab or do anything without that little boost the subs give me. I really think I might go back on percs for couple days the re-induce myself on these films. Or just stop taking anything and waste like two days then hopefully they start working. My tolerence should not be high because on tablets never taking high doses or anything over 2-3mg max. I keep trying, nothing else to do and full box of strips. Thinking about trying all ROA st once lol. Stick one mg in nose, one in lip, one dissolvd in alcohol, then plug one. Have coming on from all angles. Try anything at this point.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Lillyval wrote:
The goal of Suboxone treatment is that it builds up in your system to a steady state so that daily dosing just maintains that state. You are not supposed to "feel" your dose - (and if youre knocked out on the couch all day there is something seriously wrong.) Maybe you have finally reached the point in your treatment when you have leveled out. It usually only takes two weeks or so, but for some people it takes a couple of months.
The majority of people report that the films give them a higher dose and some have to have their dose decreased when they switch to the films. But in your case maybe hitting the ceiling and finally leveling out just happened to coincide with your switch to the films.


Yupper, I agree in full with Lilly (and Amber). You shouldn't feel a thing when you dose. So your not getting a typical opiate high, but you're saying you felt something. Now you're not getting that and that's what you're seeking. Please though,don't mistake what I am trying to say as judgment. Really.
Plus, it's normal for doses to wear off when your that low. Junig recommended taking it more than once, i think I remember reading somewhere, at doses that low. It's again normal for you to you to have fluctuating levels under the ceiling and you could feel something like ups-downs, kinda. It's not really a high, but...well, hard to explain. But some people kinda feel it when they take it allot more than when their above the ceiling. I'm no expert, but that's how I understand it. Just from reading learning from posts on Junigs blog & this forum. (Sorry, about spelling,etc, on my phone.)
It's just my opinion or idea, but until you stop thinking (obsesing?) about how your sub makes you feel when ya take it, how are you going to ever go off it, or do you not plan to? I aint saying you should either way. Some people do, some don't. Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks.
I hope I haven't said anything wrong. I dont post too often and im not trying to offend you or anyone else or start controvrsy. Just my personal opinions. I hope you find satisfaction in whatever route you choose to go with.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:30 pm 
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This an example of how everyones body handles things differently. My metabolism is very fast and have always had enormous tolerence to pain meds of all kinds ever since I can remember. I'm not a red head but feel like I have that gene or something making pain meds not effective. Even at the dentist novicane never works. Most doctors dont believe me or think I trying to get high. If I want to get high would just walk outside and buy drugs. Can get stronger pain meds on my street than in hospital. I havent taken drugs or alcohol in many years, over a decade. Hell I dont even smoke weed any more for years. If I asking for pain meds it because I'm in agony with internal stabbing pain. Usually its the worst at night time. In the hospital they finally gave me a perc 10mg and shot of dilaudid together to knock me out, didnt sleep for weeks before that. Certain nurses had a problem with that and wouldnt give to me even though my surgeon scribed it and in the computer. Those nights I take out my hidden stash of pills and try get little sleep. Now I'm thru with the night time pain, its waking up in a.m. Feel soo tight, the subs would loosen me up and give energy. The great part about sub tabs for me was only taking one tiny pill once a day and feeling effects till next day. Hopefully my body can adjust to these films because taking high doses is exactly what I dont want to do.


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 Post subject: A Rare Case
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:38 pm 
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I feel for ya RB. In all the years I've been researching Suboxone/Buprenorphine, you are the first one to say the films don't work as well as the tabs. Being that as it may, it will probably pose a problem for you with doctors to find adequate pain relief. Most doctors don't even know much about Sub as it is much less a case like yours.

Maybe in time your system will adjust and accept the films the same way as the tabs. When I take the films they dissolve almost immediately vs the tablets that took around 15-20 minutes. So reading your story I thought there was a glitch in the matrix or I was dreaming. :wink:

When I read your first post I thought it was in jest. No one has ever made those kind of statements about the film. Plus I was curious as to what ROA meant. I didn't look it up but am assuming it meant taking your Bup rectally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The only advice I can give is to talk to your doctor. He is the only one who can provide pain relief for you. I don't envy you one bit. Trying to find pain relief when you're an addict on Sub is a tough one. You should also mention your fast metabolism and how it affects taking meds. Or just say exactly what you said here unless you already have and it got you nowhere.

I have a good deal of pain from recent surgeries and taking another 2 mg's will normally do the trick. Of course then I need to take less on a day when I feel better so I don't run out early. Aleve works well too. The only prescription pain pill that will work with Buprenorphine is Tramadol. That is a tricky one if you've had an addiction to that in the past like I have. But some addicts have no problem with it. See what your Dr. thinks.

Taking Suboxone any other way than sublingually is considered addictive behavior. You may be one of the very select few who can pull it off but you won't convince me. That in it by itself lies the problem with you finding the relief you want and need. I wish you the best in finding what you need.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Lol ROA means your method of taking the subs or Route Of Administer. Thats a scientific term us addicts have adopted for some time now. The real reason I switched to subs was because I was on enormous dosage of oxy and it wasnt working at all. They way you see addicts taking 30mg of oxy and passing out, i would take 3-4 times that and be saying the same thing it doesnt work or feeling nothing. It was scary to me how much I was taking and not getting relief or buzz or anything. That is when I did research and found subs. Never considered methadone because I was not a typical adict. The subs took away the craving, which is all I ever got from pain meds. Plus it actually made me feel loose. Keep in mind I covered in scar tissue from 5 surgeries and have nerve,tendon,muscle damage on top of my titanium fused skeleton. I think the films are going to work eventually. Maybe my system is just more used to the tablets. The subutex is actually alot different than suboxone. Subutex has no naloxone and way less filers and binders mixed in. Its sublingal also but just in tablet form. The biggest diff is that it comes in generic form so about half the price of suboxone and same amount of bup. Any insurance that denys this type of switch is pretty stupid. They can pay $10 per pil or $5. I understand the argument that sub tablets are dangerous for children etc. Thats why these films are better for people with kids around. If no kids in the pucture the tablets are alot cheaper to produce. The packaging alone on these film costs more than a tablet.


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