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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:14 am 
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I'm holding @ 2mg now, without cheating and taking extra. I feel like I'm adjusting somewhat, although I still feel pretty shitty (mentally) the few hours after i dose.

Some of you might recall that I'm also not on an SSRI for the first time in years. The good news is, in a lot of ways I feel more like myself, whatever that is. I laugh more, almost started crying over a tragic news story, and *drumroll please* I can have an orgasm in about a minute flat. I remeber a young man posted the same thing in regard going off of Sub (and for him it was a bad thing). So now that I'm experiencing it I believe that what I had theorized to that guy is true: Sub (for some) seems to somehow suppress the sexual response, and when that supression is taken away....well, need I say anymore?
I know a lot of people don't experience that supression and they report having the best sex of their lives on Sub, or at least no difference. So, I'm not trying to start a debate. It's just true for me.

Jenzo, I'm thinking off going off around the time school starts for my kids (Aug. 29) so they won't be around as much for my misery. I'm not dead set on going off at 2mg. I'm thinking that after I stop I will see how bad it is and if I have to, I'll taper lower from there. I'll keep you posted. Going off with someone is a good idea.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Lillyval wrote:
I'm holding @ 2mg now, without cheating and taking extra. I feel like I'm adjusting somewhat, although I still feel pretty shitty (mentally) the few hours after i dose.

Some of you might recall that I'm also not on an SSRI for the first time in years. The good news is, in a lot of ways I feel more like myself, whatever that is. I laugh more, almost started crying over a tragic news story, and *drumroll please* I can have an orgasm in about a minute flat. I remember a young man posted the same thing in regard going off of Sub (and for him it was a bad thing). So now that I'm experiencing it I believe that what I had theorized to that guy is true: Sub (for some) seems to somehow suppress the sexual response, and when that suppression is taken away....well, need I say anymore?
I know a lot of people don't experience that suppression and they report having the best sex of their lives on Sub, or at least no difference. So, I'm not trying to start a debate. It's just true for me.

Jenzo, I'm thinking off going off around the time school starts for my kids (Aug. 29) so they won't be around as much for my misery. I'm not dead set on going off at 2mg. I'm thinking that after I stop I will see how bad it is and if I have to, I'll taper lower from there. I'll keep you posted. Going off with someone is a good idea.


I'm starting to feel better on 2mg. I think it's because I've done it before so many times and I remember how many day's it takes to adjust for myself. So Lilyval, I think you will eventually start to feel normal. If you were to jump on 2mg, I would expect a long bout of WD with 6 months of PAW from what I've read. So, maybe you should try to keep tapering after you adjust to 2mg. Also, don't listen to other peoples personal horror story's. You may even benefit from not reading taper threads when you taper.

It was easier for me to taper the first few times around before because I was working out 5 days week. Working out with weights helps or doing push ups or pull ups like a madman helps to easy the pain of a sub patient. I understand for women pullups are not possible but some kind of exercise can change everything. Join a gym if you already haven't

Chronic use of any opioids, including suboxone will eventually cause some sort of sexual side effects, they are just much milder than Methadone which will take away your manhood or womenhood because it destroys your endocrine system. I've always believed a low stable dose of sub, a healthy diet, and lots of exercise can cure the sexual side effects some experience on sub. I've never had any serious issues myself but I have noticed decreased desire on higher doses despite being able to get it up...never had that problem on the higher doses, but I've never really been on anything higher than 4mg. I was on 8mg for a few months when I first started because of doctors orders, and my lack of knowledge of bupe. Once I read up on everything I immediately lowered my dose. I could tell that sub is lowering my testosterone because I used to be a beast in the gym now dumb bells scare me. Every time I see one I want to go home and take a nap.

And sorry painter for being an a hole, I was just entertaining myself I've been really bored. I won't be around much longer anyway since I will not have any time.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:03 am 
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Lilly,

You're not the only one to notice a difference in your sex drive or ability to reach orgasm. When I quit sub, my sex drive went cuckoo.....I felt like I was 17 again!! It's calmed down some now......I feel like I'm maybe 25 now. LOL

This may sound like a dumb question, but I have to ask it. You're not too thrilled with the mental prospect of wd, would you consider getting back on an AD while you detox to help ease those symptoms? I know you just quit taking them not too long ago and that's why I was afraid this might be a dumb question to ask you.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:14 am 
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I started Wellbutrin (Aplenzin generic) almost a month ago now. I don't think it has the sexual side effects that SSRIs can.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Smoothy1125 wrote:
My Doctor always says it's my body telling me I'm not ready yet. We always adjust it just takes longer the lower we get. I've been stuck at 3mg for over a year and every time I go below I feel like crap. Like you said not withdrawals, more of a disphoria or depersonalization. I also get very moody and short tempered. My doctor (god love him) keeps me at 3. Sometimes I wish he would push a little harder to have me lower but that's not his style and I feel good at 3mg so why fix it if it isn't broke. Certain drops that I had problems with he would rotate every other day. For example 3 one day then 3 1/2 the next, that ways made the transition easier for me. Good luck.


hey im right there with you. i just saw the doc today and she said i need to go back to 4mg for a month to stabilize before getting to 2mg again. i will be doing 4mg/3mg for a week, then 3mg for 2 weeks, then 3mg/2mg for a week or two, then ill stabilize at 2mg for a couple months, then im jumping in dec. i dont think i can bare the tapering after two, ill try to get to 1...anyway i just wanted to say that im right where you are!!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Lillyval wrote:
I'm holding @ 2mg now, without cheating and taking extra. I feel like I'm adjusting somewhat, although I still feel pretty shitty (mentally) the few hours after i dose.

Some of you might recall that I'm also not on an SSRI for the first time in years. The good news is, in a lot of ways I feel more like myself, whatever that is. I laugh more, almost started crying over a tragic news story, and *drumroll please* I can have an orgasm in about a minute flat. I remeber a young man posted the same thing in regard going off of Sub (and for him it was a bad thing). So now that I'm experiencing it I believe that what I had theorized to that guy is true: Sub (for some) seems to somehow suppress the sexual response, and when that supression is taken away....well, need I say anymore?
I know a lot of people don't experience that supression and they report having the best sex of their lives on Sub, or at least no difference. So, I'm not trying to start a debate. It's just true for me.

Jenzo, I'm thinking off going off around the time school starts for my kids (Aug. 29) so they won't be around as much for my misery. I'm not dead set on going off at 2mg. I'm thinking that after I stop I will see how bad it is and if I have to, I'll taper lower from there. I'll keep you posted. Going off with someone is a good idea.



I cant stop till december but ill be here to give you support!
good luck and keep me posted:)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:42 pm 
Lillyval....I 100% am in the same boat when it comes to the sexual side effects. Achieving orgasm on opiates is nearly impossible! It seems even worse on Sub than it was on full agonists. I have found it to be, well, pretty highly frustrating! I remember when I cold-turkeyed off the full agonists....holy.....!!!! Libido skyrocketed and ability to orgasm, well, let's just say it didn't take much and multiples were the rule rather than the exception! (sorry if TMI!....just telling the truth here.) I remember thinking, "my God, what is going on?!" Then I started Sub and things went back to low libido, etc. I am beginning to see a difference in these issues with the lowering of my Sub dose, especially now that I've gotten it down to 1mg or less a day. So that is definitely a positive of tapering/quitting Sub. Anyway, just wanted you to know that I've had pretty much the exact experience as you regarding the sexual aspects of this.

On the downside of tapering/quitting, again, same boat as many others.....the mental crap is the worst. Physically, all I've noticed since being on ~0.5/day for the last 4-5 days, is that I've got some aching in my legs, a slight RLS, weird sneezing fits, and yawning fits, watery eyes and some sweats, but nothing major. I'm sleeping good with the help of Ambien and/or Clonidine. I've had only very mild anxiety. But just still struggle with just feeling in a 'funk'....low motivation, blah feeling over all. However....I've had a few brief periods of feeling just great! It's the weirdest thing. I'll have just struggled for hours to get my ass in the shower and get dressed and out of the house.....Then boom, I'm in the car listening to music and just feel fantastic all of the sudden! Like I did when I was a teenager....blasting the radio, singing along, feeling just awesome. That will last for several hours. Then the next thing I know, I feel all shitty again!! What I ride! I'm starting to see exactly what others have said about how Suboxone w/d goes. One minute you're up, the next you're down. Crazy stuff!!
I remain determined to get this done! Hoping that even getting down rather quickly from about 2mg/day on down to under 1mg/day, that my 'jump' will be a little easier. I'm not sure still how I will ultimately do it. I may just quit tomorrow. I may keep dosing just tiny amounts as needed for a while. Just playing it by ear. I am determined, however, to never take more than 1mg/day....period!

This is a good thread....discussing the pros and cons of long tapers vs just quitting. It's a tough call and we all have to do it the way that works for us. We're all made differently. There are those who are great with structure and thrive on that type of routine and there are others of us who just don't do well with that.....we just have to make up our mind, dig our heals in and do it.....today! I think I fall somewhere in the middle. But at some point, I'm going to have to decide that enough is enough and just get it over with.
Thanks everybody. You all help me and I appreciate it!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:49 pm 
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There was a study for Methadone vs buprenorphine on the effects on testosterone levels in heroin addicted men. It found that bupe didn't lower testosterone levels. I find this confusing, considering all the testimonials of the complaints on sex drive on Suboxone. This study seems flawed. I read the abstract a few years ago, and from what I remember the study was inside of 4-6 months. Could it be that this isn't enough time for testosterone levels to lower?

I tested my T levels and they were borderline normal a few years ago. After that I reduced the dose and changed my diet and increased my T levels about 50%. My main motivation for quiting sub or reducing my dose is to raise my testosterone levels. I lot of people don't realise how important testosterone is; these people tend to not have a biology background. They think testosterone is all about muscles and having a hairy chest but it is so much more than that. Testosterone is one of the most important hormones in the body. Hormones are regulated by the endocrine system... and hormones in this complex system are very dependent on each, are very non-linear, and basically work like a team. Having no testosterone would be like a football team having no quarterback.

I never got my T levels tested before I was an opioid addict unfortunately, but I know based on my physical attributes that there was definitely no shortage of testosterone during my development during puberty. I am 100% convinced that long term Suboxone will lower T levels. Definitely, not to the same degree as the Methadone will but it still does. Methadone will chemically castrate a man. The only thing we can do is lower are doses, eat like are prehistoric ancestors, exercise, and take the right supplements. Outside of that, there is nothing we can do but quit. I believe though, on doses 1mg and under with a good diet and lots of exercise we can make a huge difference. So that should be every one's main motivation to quit. This goes for women too, as far as the hormones go. Opioids cause a long lasting increase in aromatase in estrogen-producing organs, which is actually the reason why it effects testosterone.
I became an opioid addict in early 2003. I didn't know about Suboxone until 2007. The sole reason why I never got treatment was because I refused to go on Methadone. I used to get high off Methadone, so it didn't make much sense to me. So I'm actually very thankful that Suboxone is available to me. You all should be too.


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