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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:03 pm 
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i took .125mg because i couldnt sleep no matter what i took tempazam or xanax. within an hr i feel asleep it has to be my mind...doesnt it...i feel ok this morning when i woke up just off of .125mg. i know Romeo I think said sub acts as a SAO at low doses but im wondering if it was all in my head or when the .125mg will wear off. I was even thinking of taking .125mg for a few days and than jumping again...but i digress maybe i almost had 48 hrs with no bupe and now i don't.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:05 pm 
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A lot of people who taper Suboxone end up skipping days towards the end of their taper. Instead of looking at what you did as a slip, you could look at it as still being part of your taper.

As far as Suboxone acting as an SAO at lower doses, I think the logic goes something like this. While under 4mg (or whatever the ceiling is), your body starts to have a chance to basically clear enough Suboxone from your system so when you take your next dose, you're well below the ceiling and therefore you "feel" it again.

In your case, you were off Suboxone for almost 2 days so your body surely had cleared most of the Suboxone out of your system. When you took that .125mg dose, I would imagine you did "feel" it to where it helped you to sleep.

If you have trouble sleeping again, maybe you could try Doxylamine Succinate (Unisom---check the ingredients though. Unisom is made with Diphenhydramine or Doxylamine Succinate.....use the Doxylamine Succinate one.) I've been using Unisom on and off here lately and I've been doing more reading about it and apparently it has the same sedative strength as some prescription sleep aids, but it's not habit forming. I only take a half of a 25mg pill when I do take it and it knocks me out.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Hey Scorpiotcl. There's a member here who comes and goes who's also a moderator at subsux. I forget what he / she goes by (SubZero ?) might be worth dropping them a PM as they've been in a very similar situation to yourself - ie using Sub for a few months to get off years of methadone. If I remember right, they stayed on for 7 months or something and still found it difficult to get off. But they're clean til this day. In fact, there's a lot of people who've used that board and its negative views of Suboxone to motivate them to get off Sub.


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 Post subject: thanks Teejay and Romeo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:31 pm 
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than you for your response. i cant tellif i am coming or going lately so i know i must sound really out of it and not making any sense.

thank you my fiancé wants me off the sub and so i tapered so fast and she just doesnt understand and makes me feel so guilty. I wish I was a better man. I wish I was the man she deserves.... i mean i am taking clonidon and i took temzapam and xanaz last night and still couldnt sleep. i am such a loser a xanax addict and a sub addict...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Hey you are not a loser! You are an addict. Your fiancé is not and will never understand what you are going through.

We are not bad people, we are sick people trying to get better.

You need to do this for you! Nobody else or it will not work.

Also I do not agree that it's easier to come off sub after 4 months than a longer time period. Maybe after 2 weeks or so but in my opinion the longer we stay on sub at a stable dose, do not take more than needed etc... We learn to cope with life, the better chance we have when coming off of it. If you were on methadone and hydros for 8 years, it's not going to make a difference if you are on sub 4 months or 2 years. This is all just my opinion but also dr. Junig has written about this subject and says the people who have the best chance staying clean after coming off suboxone are on for 1 year minimum.

Whatever you do, keep your head up!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:30 am 
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Scorpiotl wrote:
than you for your response. i cant tellif i am coming or going lately so i know i must sound really out of it and not making any sense.

thank you my fiancé wants me off the sub and so i tapered so fast and she just doesnt understand and makes me feel so guilty. I wish I was a better man. I wish I was the man she deserves.... i mean i am taking clonidon and i took temzapam and xanaz last night and still couldnt sleep. i am such a loser a xanax addict and a sub addict...


I know this feeling. It's weird seeing it in someone else and seeing it with some objectivity. Fact is she loves you and she's with you and she's chosen to be with you for the rest of her life. And if you weren't the kind of person that could find themselves addicted, perhaps you wouldn't have the personality you do that makes you the guy she loves.

Think about what benefits YOU will get from being off Sub. The best way to success is to think that you're doing this for yourself. Write a list of all the benefits you'll receive from getting off Sub, and how much better YOU will feel about yourself achieving a taper and being off Sub.


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 Post subject: Thank you
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:59 am 
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Teejay and GlenBee I think it was....I had a really bad morning thursday.....but than i did something i didnt think i could do but i knew i had to. I let go of my sub. I flushed it all down the toilet. There is no going back. I took some zzquyil tonight but not too much because its 10 percent alcohol. but let me backtrack.....after i flushed the sub i felt a surge of adrenaline??? maybe something it let me know that something had changed. i know it sounds melodramatic and it probably is. But I felt a release. I felt weird but I made myself get out today in this Christmas crazyness.. I didnt drive my fiancee did...i felt weird for hours pretty much all day....but I feel like something has changed. I fell like I made a commitment just like I did in getting off the methadone. I ache and I hurt but I dont feel trapped. Im weak and Im tired but I cant sleep. Im here. Im alive again and Im kicking....I just wanted to check in with you guys because the stuff on here has kept me going. As an aside I posted the other day about a tox screen I took because Im considering changing jobs....I know Im an addict so Im impulsive and when I do things I do them all the way. So Im changing alot of things right now but if anybody knows Im just curious if they will check for sub.....anyway i need some water. God Bless you all.

talk to you soon

Scorp


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 Post subject: tox screen
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:52 am 
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Most drug test do NOT test for BUP. Most of the common drug test test for coke(COC), Opiates (OPI) Marijuana (THC), Meth, Benzos (BZO) and Stimulants (AMP). Unless the drug screen for suboxone which is (BUP) is in there, which is NOT very common. So I think you will be ok.


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 Post subject: Re: Thank you
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Scorpiotl wrote:
Teejay and GlenBee I think it was....I had a really bad morning thursday.....but than i did something i didnt think i could do but i knew i had to. I let go of my sub. I flushed it all down the toilet. There is no going back. I took some zzquyil tonight but not too much because its 10 percent alcohol. but let me backtrack.....after i flushed the sub i felt a surge of adrenaline??? maybe something it let me know that something had changed. i know it sounds melodramatic and it probably is. But I felt a release. I felt weird but I made myself get out today in this Christmas crazyness.. I didnt drive my fiancee did...i felt weird for hours pretty much all day....but I feel like something has changed. I fell like I made a commitment just like I did in getting off the methadone. I ache and I hurt but I dont feel trapped. Im weak and Im tired but I cant sleep. Im here. Im alive again and Im kicking....I just wanted to check in with you guys because the stuff on here has kept me going. As an aside I posted the other day about a tox screen I took because Im considering changing jobs....I know Im an addict so Im impulsive and when I do things I do them all the way. So Im changing alot of things right now but if anybody knows Im just curious if they will check for sub.....anyway i need some water. God Bless you all.

talk to you soon

Scorp


What's up man I just wanted to jump in on this briefly.... that surge of adrenaline you felt is called a moment of clarity or an epiphany.... You sound like a spiritual person, so you probably already know that God was working through you. I know I might get smashed for this by all the people that believe in a slow taper, but please let me add my two cents. I have had lots of people do the slow taper method and be successful; that wasn't the case for me. As soon as I fell below 1-2 mg I knew that if I took enough full agonist opiates again (e.g. Heroin/Percocet/whatever) I could get high. On November 27th I finally checked myself into rehab, jumping off an average of 2-4 mg/day which I had taken for most of this year. I withdrew for about 12 days pretty bad, but then I finally got some decent sleep again. I am just writing to let you know that your method IS possible, even though as I said most people will try to discourage you. I detoxed in a non-medical environment with mandatory AA/NA meetings and groups anywhere from 5-7 times a day and 3-4 roommates snoring/getting up to pee/generally annoying me. It has now been almost a month and I can say that we DO recover. When you feel weak, pray! Sometimes all it takes is the support of others. I almost walked out of the facility I was in, in the middle of the night on my 5th or 6th day, but the staff stopped me and asked me a couple simple questions: Where was I going? What was I going to do? Keep putting the same s**t in me that got me there in the first place? Then, some words of encouragement: kick that stuff in its *ss. You CAN beat it. Positive thoughts, while seeming almost impossible to conjure while drowning in a negative experience, will be your saving grace. I just want to let you know it CAN be done and once you break free, it's a beautiful world out there. I am just writing this because nobody would do that for me. Many people would say long-term Suboxone tapers are much safer and smarter, and I am not going to say that they're wrong, but since you already flushed them I feel like you might have had your spiritual moment. I don't know if I post my e-mail address if they might delete this, so if you can message me on here privately please feel free-- sometimes all we need in the midst of the storm is to see one other ship that sailed through it successfully before. Peace be with you.... you can do it!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Matt, I think it's absolutely awesome that you are here to support Scorpiotl and the way he has chosen to go off sub! Your story is inspiring. I think that people who can utilize prayer or some other form of spiritual life have a very powerful tool against addiction. I also felt a rush when I decided to get help. A part of me couldn't believe I was picking up the phone to dramatically change my life. Another part of me felt a rush of relief and gratitude and calm. I had asked God to give me a sign that it was time to change, time to get my life back. That feeling that came over me when I decided to pick up the phone was God's answer.

There is nothing wrong with taking the leap and quitting sub off a relatively high dose. If this is really Scorpiotl's authentic choice, I wish him nothing but the best. I think that people are responding to the fact that he is jumping off because his fiance wants him to, not necessarily that he isn't doing a long, slow taper.

Welcome to the forum, Matt!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:59 pm 
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Yeah there are some benefits to "high jumping". Some people have found it harder to stay clean on low doses of Sub than on no Sub at all (as long as they've been off it long enough). I know I'm one of them. I've always found the urge to top-up - like when you're not on enough Sub - a lot stronger than the urge to use in the first-place when there's no drugs in your system.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:40 am 
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you gave me hope you allowed me to see that is possible. Amy i hear what you are saying too. It is my decision. It is my dream. It is something I would move heaven and earth for. At least I would like to think I would. you see i had always popped vicodin ever since i injured my knee the first time in 2000. I got beat up at work by some guy hopped on on steroids who had just started and misinterpreted something i said. I blamed myself. I found that the pills made me feel happy,secure,not so anxious anymore and able to cope with the stress of school and work and the fact that i didnt feel so insecure in my own skin anymore. Once I become addicted I had so much shame and guilt. I tore myself up I was so racked with guilt. I think I was addictted from the first time i popped that vic. over 12 years ago. I had never liked pain meds before wisdom teeth or other injuries in high school never. But with being out in the world on my own and having been beaten up and having to have my 1st surgery and the loss of my job the guilt i put on myself was so much. I sunk into my den and I stayed there. I finally emerged almost 2 years later. I met a woman who believed in me. She was a nice woman I thought. She gave me a sense of worth. If someone could love me of all people than maybe I wasnt so bad. She helped me detox off the oxy and the norcos and we ended up getting married. Fast forward 2 years later after several binges on norcos or oxy that would last 2-5 days at a time and would only end when i had 2 days off of work to recover from my binges and she served me with divorce papers. She never talked to me again after she kissed me goodbye as i left that morning to goto work. I think that is what hurt the most. The abandonment the feeling that i had thrown it all away over pills. I sunk deeper into despair. I got my pain doc to switch me to methadone and than i really went out of control. the methadone i couldnt get high on anymore so i started topping off or taking more methadone. I had starting taking benzoes to combat the anxiety i felt when i wasnt on opiates or had stopped ever so briefly. But finally it was all to much and i just went to work and stayed numb. 3 years ago I met the woman who is now my fiancé. She showed me another way that I didnt have to be a loner that I didnt have to hurt myself and numb myself. As you can probably tell by now I think its safe to say i am codependent. I had numerous other relationships in the period of 6 years between my ex-wife and my fiancé. But the pills always came first I never got too close because I didnt want to expose myself or I would choose to take copious amounts of opiates instead of focusing on relationships. It was always about money and drugs. Than I met a woman who was nice and sweet she saved my life. It took almost 2 years for me to trust her totally but I finally did. We moved slow and we finally moved in together. This summer I got off the methadone and I lost alot of weight and started eating better and living better. I cared again. I dont mean to write a book and be so long winded. I guess what I am trying to say is I didnt feel like I had the strength on my own or I didnt want to get off on my own. I felt like I had no reason to live other than pills and money. All i cared about was material possessions and how i could alter my mood and satisfy any urge i had. in short i was the devil incarnate at times. I never trusted anyone i hid everything. But that has all changed. I see all the things I have done wrong in my life. When i started detoxing on methadone a light turned on. Than I got on the sub and the light started to really shine. I wanted to live life on lifes terms again. I wanted to put myself out there again. I am mid mid 30's now and i am not getting any younger. My father is an alcholic and bi-polar. I have never been a drinker and I haven't been drunk in probably 8-9 years. I never wanted to be my father. But I didnt realize that I took the same destination I just chose a different way of getting there. I f#### up my life. I think a part of me did it to see if anyone would notice or care or if someone would save me. I romantized it. I wanted to Downey in Less than Zero. I wanted to be Michael J. Fox in bright Lights Big City. I wanted to be the prodigical son....to be lost and than find myself again and be all the better for it....but it didnt turn out like that I kept going further down the spiral....I want off the merry go round. I have never been this open in my life as what i am typing here this I minute. I screwed up again tonight. I felt bad and I still had some temgesic I hid it. I dint flush it with everything yesterday. I should have but I didnt I wanted to make sure if the pain got to be too much or if she left me i had a plan B. than i took a bath tonight and found a bottle of sub under the sink. I have been looking at that bottle for 2 hours.....my heart punded i should have flushed it....but i didnt i gave in to my sin....i said no i remember someone saying something about skipping days earlier in the thread and its ok i can take .2mg of bupe. I will feel better and Its been since Wednesday @ 330 am that i took .125mg....i am skipping days my tapering will be easier and i wont have to hurt its friday night anyway why not....i am a mess and now i am going to flush my sub but this is me and I'm so scared about the future and i just need to man up....


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:41 am 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
Matt, I think it's absolutely awesome that you are here to support Scorpiotl and the way he has chosen to go off sub! Your story is inspiring. I think that people who can utilize prayer or some other form of spiritual life have a very powerful tool against addiction. I also felt a rush when I decided to get help. A part of me couldn't believe I was picking up the phone to dramatically change my life. Another part of me felt a rush of relief and gratitude and calm. I had asked God to give me a sign that it was time to change, time to get my life back. That feeling that came over me when I decided to pick up the phone was God's answer.

There is nothing wrong with taking the leap and quitting sub off a relatively high dose. If this is really Scorpiotl's authentic choice, I wish him nothing but the best. I think that people are responding to the fact that he is jumping off because his fiance wants him to, not necessarily that he isn't doing a long, slow taper.

Welcome to the forum, Matt!

Amy


Thanks for not jumping on me for that. I know a lot of people on here recommend long-term Sub maintenance but for ME (I only can speak for myself) that wasn't the case. They fail to mention that some of us addicts realize that under 1mg of Sub, full opiates can break through pretty easily, and so it wasn't an effective method for me. I had to burn the memory of my withdrawal and how painful it was into my brain, or I knew I might give myself the "it wasn't that bad" or "i can always do a slow taper" logic, and start all over again. In under a week I will have a month off all opioids and opiates and I am going to another 3 month program even though I'm sober now. I just had to want it bad enough and tell myself it could be done. Once I decided I was done getting my butt kicked by opiates (which happened over and over and over again), I figured that one last good hard kick was the best method to remind myself that there is NO easy way out once I take that first painkiller or opioid. I can't guarantee the future but I can only hope that some other poor soul comes across these threads and finds hope like I once did. Or that someone who is being told long-term maintenance is "the best option to avoid relapse" gives it some good thought before staying on the Subs for over a week or two.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:28 pm 
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yeah, i think that is my problem i get stuck inside my head. romanticizing it making excuses for it and basically being a selfish prick..."But its ok because im an addict".....i have a rationalization for everything and as she lays there sleeping I'm feeling sobad because i dont hurt....i mean if nothing else i have got my tolerance to sub way down. 325 micrograms since my 1 mg dose monday @ 7am. i hope......i even tried to tell myself that its the holidays and rationalize that way. what is the saying from AA and NA....jails instituions or death..... yeah i cant spell when I'm numb and i dont care being off for those days i learned to appreciate music again i learned to appreciate just being here...its amazing but I am not powerless over my addiction....I need 2 remember that


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 Post subject: I'm sorry
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:33 pm 
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I don't mean to be so messed up I hope I am not making a mockery of everyone. I'm sorry. I guess I shouldn't have told my story. I am sorry for putting it in the wrong section 2 I just thought the thread fit. My sincerest apologies and I am sorry I complain so much.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Scorpiotl, please stop beating yourself up! Most people who have been on this forum for any length of time end up telling their whole story. One of the great things about telling your story here is that we totally get it. We understand the roller coaster ride that is addiction. If no one had an immediate response to your story, it's not because we don't care about you. It's because we understand it so well that we are not startled into answering right away. I don't know if you know what I mean, but I want you to feel safe venting here. People do care.

I'm glad you're seeing a therapist because you have some areas to work on. The co-dependency and low self-esteem are major stumbling blocks to recovery. I'm so glad you have a supportive fiance! It would be good for her to attend a couple of your therapy sessions or some alanon meetings. People don't automatically come with a built-in set of instructions on how to best help addicts. She could learn, for example, how to handle it when you slip-up or how to help you avoid triggers.

I believe that every human being is important and worthy of love. I also believe that God also loves you unconditionally. I love Romeo's signature quote: Our character defects do not define who we are! Keep working at it! Keep striving for your goals and learning from your mistakes.

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:51 am 
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Hey Scorp,

You dont have to worry about venting or telling your story here. Thats why this place exists! Keep posting as much as you need to. Getting stuff out of your head will make ya feel better.

People on here are awesome and should support your decisions. I loved glem bee and matts posts. You can do this scorp! You are not weak, you are sick and it takes time to heal.

Be kind to yourself and I hope you had a merry christmas!


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 Post subject: yeah thanks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:06 pm 
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i get caught in my own head a lot.


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 Post subject: contd
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:08 pm 
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and thats not a good place 2 be sometimes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:02 pm 
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I know that just a .2mg sliver would take away all the anxiety.....it has to be all in my head dont you think? I mean it has been like a day and a half since my last piece........im going nuts the past couple hours climbing the walls...


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