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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Hey guys. I have lurked around for quite some time now through a friend of mine and finally decided that it was time to share some of my story to the world and try to help some people on suboxone...

I had a heavy heroin addiction... 3-5g a day... And decided that it was time to hang it up because I was just sick and tired of the way I was living after 9 years of this crap. I started on suboxone in a rehab that I was at and it sent me whirling into active recovery from there. I felt great. I went to daily NA meetings for a little over the first year and that really allowed me to get my lost thoughts, morals, and spirituality back. I also learned how to make friends and do fun things in my life without using drugs... Especially opiates. So here I am not using any drugs other than my trusty suboxone, feeling great, life is all together now, and riding the wave. This wave carried me through the next few years. After I had worked the 12 steps of NA and felt comfortable in my recovery on the whole, I made the decision to get off of suboxone. After 4 years. I tapered myself down to nothing from 8mg and was on my way. I did actually jump after only getting down to 1mg, but I just didn't have the patience to go any further. I was ready.

The initial month was the worst for me. After that I held onto sniffles, RLS, and severe depression for almost a year. I stopped going to meetings immediately, because "I didn't feel like going", basically just existed at work and went through the motions. Anyways. After almost a year and a half here I am. I can't take this anymore. I wish I would've continued meetings or something to keep some of these feelings at bay, but long story short I don't want to use and die. My cravings have slowly gotten worse and I've never felt so depressed. I feel like I always used to feel before I even started the suboxone in the first place.

This is why I have made the decision to get back on a low dose of suboxone and just manage it for as long as I need to. I don't really see how getting off will ever be any easier, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I'm just very confused at this point. Because I did everything I was told to do and really did it to the best of my ability. Just seems like it melted away without being on some kind of suboxone regimen. I will point this out though, it did take me shy of two years to get there, but I got there. It happens.

Please give me your thoughts and suggestions.

Ahwahnee Man


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:41 pm 
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Welcome!

Can I ask if your depression was related to suboxone itself? (coming off subs)? have you always been prone to depression?

I don't know if it's me but I seem to be noticing people talk about depression for months and months lasting year or 2 after stopping suboxone.. This could be PAWS but I did not think the depression part would last that long?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:57 pm 
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The word depression means an inability to construct a future in my opinion;however, this is a culmination of several things, or so it feels. Lack of motivation to do anything, fear of using, lack of happiness, Ect. So emotionally I feel screwed up. I truly believe that on the suboxone I was happy, motivated, working a recovery program. And able to just live my life. Now I feel as though I am the shell of that person I once was, just like active addiction. This just bothers me because I have a great family and had a good life before drugs. I was never depressed and had my head on straight. Many years of use has ripped that away, unless I'm on suboxone. This is why I feel as though being on suboxone may not be such a bad thing, at least not as bad as I once thought. It allows me to live a full life. Keep on mind this may not be true for everyone out there but it's what works.

This medicine creates a livable situation for me. It works the way it's supposed to work. It took me almost 2 years of pain to convince myself that it doesn't say anywhere that you have to get off this medication. I guess I posted here to get some opinions and let others know that they don't need to suffer through a few years just to say they are free of suboxone. I hoe this can help at least one person because I wish someone told me this long ago in a way that I could understand it.

Ahwahnee Man


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Well if this medicine produces depression after stopping it then it cannot be amazing can it? there comes a time when people want off suboxone. When they try to come off they feel bad, that is the reality for most folks sadly. The more and longer you take suboxone the more you want off in the near future. It can stop your natural endorphins, make you di-movated, make you lose interest, create health problems aswell as life problems and so on. This is why people want to come off suboxone. But when they do they seem to be depressed several months later. So in that sense it is not a great medication for everybody at all.

I do believe anybody sane would want to live life on life terms and not med terms. They would want to life life experiencing emotions, interests, zest for life and experiencing life on sober terms. Say suboxone helps an individual and they feel good on it, but down the line start to feel bad on it (true for 99% sub users) and then want off-only to suffer withdrawals and PAWS including depression, then can they claim it's a wonderful medication? for many people it can create more problems then their previous or past doc/opiate/drug.

It is sad that you felt depressed after coming off suboxone, but you are not the only one. Many feel depressed for 3 to 4 years believe it or not. Many lose interests, emotions, relationships, marriages, jobs, some even have taken their own life can you believe? I don't know but if you suffered badly coming off suboxone for a year or close to a year then I am not sure if that will ever change. I hate stories, reports and rumors that for many people once they take suboxone their receptors are damaged forever where they will always be depressed for all their life, and even if they go back on suboxone they will still in-time feel depressed, basically feel the same on it as off it. I hate stories like that but hey if there is some truth to it then how can be avoid and ignore this hey? if it can stop a innocent soul from going on suboxone then something good can come out of it at least. Maybe you should tell your stories to the newbies or those who just started suboxone-perhaps you can save them a life of misery and ending up like you? where you need a medicine to even stay alive or feel semi-human.

I certainly do not want to use a med to function.. I am much better then that. I am too young to be in your boat. I got a lot going for me in life, in relationship, in my employment, in sports, I have ambitions and goals. Hell if it takes me Ibogaine to reach there then I'll do it..But noway in hell am I going to stay on sub for life or longer then I have to do. Fact is that it makes you less progressive in-time, makes you feel your somebody else, like a zombie, and no sane Human with any principles will ever want to live a life like that.

I am truly sorry that you suffer man, am sorry you need a medication to get up in the morning. Am sorry you got depressed for long time, it must feel death is better then what you went through.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:18 pm 
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It's not the suboxone that causes the depression. It's the years of drug abuse that causes it. You do 3-5 G's of H a day for 9 years and you're gonna suffer vicious acute withdrawal followed by never ending PAWS (including depression). Subs only allow you to put that part of it on hold- its not a get out of jail free card. Subs allow you to get yourself ready to pay the price- and in many cases they allow you to taper and make it a little more manageable, but there simply is no way to escape paying for the damage we've done. The brain has to heal and learn how to do the things naturally again that we've messed up with our drug abuse. The only way subs make it tougher is that they add years to the time you've already spent confusing your brain. Any time you feed your brain daily opiates you're doing damage..

I got off everything and it wasn't pleasant, but it was a breeze compared to getting clean cold turkey. But honestly, I'd have no problem going on a low dose of sub if I thought it was necessary. I wouldn't even give it a second thought. Sure, we should all try to live completely chemical free, but if I gave it 2 years and was still suffering depression I'd make the decision and move on..

Good luck with whatever you decide. Low dose sub isn't the end of the world.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Sounds to me you need to talk to a professional about your feelings and problems, and see if they can lead you in the right direction.

It sounds to me that you have some issues that probably caused you to start using in the first place, and now these feelings are out in the open and not numbed by drugs. It seems like it would be a good time for you to try and sort of these feelings you have, and work towards becoming the person you'd like to be.. Once you feel you are the person you envision yourself being you will be alot happier with yourself and in general.

The H abuse will take some time to come back from, but understand you are doing really well by being clean and that most people will recognize it even if you don't feel perfect yet. The change is completely apparent to anyone around you, and maybe hurting and feeling suffering a bit is just part of the human condition.

Hang in there. You're doing the right thing, and if you decide you need to be back on subs try and keep it at a minimum dose.. I'd say 1MG a day should suffice in helping ease your problems without changing your personality.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:17 pm 
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SOME good points here. I just feel as though I don't have the time or the ability to waste years of my life in that shit storm if I have a way out with suboxone. Why not? If you want to spend years of your life trying to wait to feel better... Go ahead. I would rather take this medicine and live my life to the fullest extent of the word. You may be cleaner than I am, but I don't really care at the end of the day. Why is it a requirement that we get off and "let our brains grow new receptors through withdrawal and pain"? It isn't. You seem to feel that it is and I have no idea why unless it's a cultural thing. If you want to say that I'm just mentally screwed up from the get go, that's fine. But I know for a fact that it was the drugs that caused this hell storm. Not my life circumstances or events prior to using. I used to get high for fun until it wasn't. The end.

So. Thanks for the input guys but all I want you to know is that if you want off and want to stay off forever, you better be a totally different person than you used to be with near perfect attendance at some kind of recovery world function. Those of you in your twenties can't even imagine how long life is, and staying clean for an year or so is good, but you need to consider the rest of your life. Suffering and possibly fighting active addiction forever? Or not?

Ahwahnee Man


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:25 pm 
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I am 25 and, please mind the cliche, but I am just taking it a day at a time man; thats all I need to think about, today. And if the drugs got you to this miserable place, you should know trying to fix your problem with more of the same drugs is not going to work. What will subs do for you? they may artificially mask your feelings but eventually you'll end up back in a bad place, wanting to get off. At least that has been my experience after 4 years of on and off sub use (mostly on). I felt just like you, cant live with it, cant live without it. Was off for 4 months once, began feeling that depression sink in and threw in the towel. But every time I go back on the stuff I become a different person, a worse person, someone I dont want to be. I begin to focus again on drugs, and I loose trust in my natural feelings, and only trust how the drugs can change my feelings. I eventually loose myself completely and become of the addict mind once again. After much experimentation, I now know, for me, that even the worst days off subs are better then any day on them. Get at the root of your misery. Thats what I have been doing and it really has been a freeing experience. BTW, since you are in the program(or were), I would suggest getting a new sponsor. My sponsor really has helped me change my thinking. The only way we can get out of this hell for the long run is to completely change our thinking. Im three months in again and, although I have days of depression, the good days make it all worth it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Man.
That's great you feel that way.

But if you classify taking suboxone as the same thing as shooting up heroin... There's a bigger problem.

Why be miserable? For what? So I can go to NA everyday of my life and make that my life? Because that's my only other option... Everyone's only other option.

But you say... Today is all I have to worry about blah blah blah. But. Why not just take suboxone and have a great today and if and when I'm tired of the suboxone get off? Problem.

I don't want to stop suboxone again personally. For many reasons. But. I don't want to die, I don't want to live in active addiction, I don't want to be miserable for years on end, suboxone isn't effecting my health, I know I won't keep up with goibg to NA even more than I already do and make it my life, Ect.

Your points would be good and wonderful if you were posting on a NA Fanatics page, but this is a PRO suboxone page. I want people to get better and be happy. So for lots of addicts there is this great medicine that when coupled with SOME recovery work it works amazingly.... Instantly takes away obsession to use opiates.


Or. They can go to NA every day and make that their thing. Fully. Completely. Engulfed.

Or. Keep using and die.

So I'd rather folks be happy and stay happy. Btw those folks that eventually get miserable have many factors playing against them... Either using other substances other than suboxone, not working a recovery program anymore, isolating themselves, Ect. So when that Depression and shittiness sets in from lack of atmosphere of recovery, isolation, and drug use (illegal or legal)... It's gotta be the suboxone causing it... They jump off and feel the fresh off goodness of being 100% off opiates, but it's short lived because they see how fucked up they really are... How completely still attached to opiates they are.

This is just what I've seen and watched and experienced. And actually due to posts like this from you, the people feeling down due to reasons above and then some while still on suboxone that find this page in a Google search read tons of stuff like your posting and it's so so wrong. If everyone eventually felt Shitty on suboxone we would all just get off. Like I said... There's always something more there behind the curtain that they don't see and aren't telling about.

Good luck though. I'm going to continue to be happy and living this great life I have. But. You can keep holding on and being constantly reminded of this problem. Claw your way to moments of happiness when you could be having weeks of happiness.

Idk. I'm getting off topic a bit and I'm sorry about that. I just honestly don't understand this position. The whole "it's better to not take any medicines at all" and what not. But why? Cultural pushes? Idk. To be miserable daily? To put more stress and problems on your plate?

Blah. Sorry if you don't agree. That's why the Internet is so great. Good debate. Learning.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:11 pm 
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l i v i n wrote:
I am 25 and, please mind the cliche, but I am just taking it a day at a time man; thats all I need to think about, today. And if the drugs got you to this miserable place, you should know trying to fix your problem with more of the same drugs is not going to work. What will subs do for you? they may artificially mask your feelings but eventually you'll end up back in a bad place, wanting to get off. At least that has been my experience after 4 years of on and off sub use (mostly on). I felt just like you, cant live with it, cant live without it. Was off for 4 months once, began feeling that depression sink in and threw in the towel. But every time I go back on the stuff I become a different person, a worse person, someone I dont want to be. I begin to focus again on drugs, and I loose trust in my natural feelings, and only trust how the drugs can change my feelings. I eventually loose myself completely and become of the addict mind once again. After much experimentation, I now know, for me, that even the worst days off subs are better then any day on them. Get at the root of your misery. Thats what I have been doing and it really has been a freeing experience. BTW, since you are in the program(or were), I would suggest getting a new sponsor. My sponsor really has helped me change my thinking. The only way we can get out of this hell for the long run is to completely change our thinking. Im three months in again and, although I have days of depression, the good days make it all worth it.


I get that all of these things are true for you in your situation, but it's like you didn't even read what the original poster said! He said that he feels motivated, happy and working a recovery program while on suboxone. He said that being on suboxone created a livable situation for him. Suboxone was not the problem for him. The problem was that he put pressure on himself and probably had outside pressure to get off the medication that was working for him. He's not horribly depressed because he had been on suboxone, he was horribly depressed because his opiate receptors were empty and his brain chemistry doesn't work smoothly without his receptors filled.

You know that for yourself the worst days off sub are better than the best day on it. That's fine! It's great that you've discovered that sub doesn't work for you and you simply need to take things one day at a time. That's not the case for our OP. He has discovered that the worst day on sub is better than the best day off it. So why try to convince him that he has to do the stuff that works for you instead of the stuff that works for him?

We are a pro-sub forum. It is not our job to try to make people feel bad or pressure them to get off of suboxone if it's working for them. Save that for the people who come on here with the goal of getting off sub. There are plenty of those threads around.

Don't even get me started on the "facts" that empire was making up in his posts. Ahwahnee12, I sincerely hope that you didn't take anything empire said to heart. I can barely read through his posts, they're so filled with conjecture, opinion, and erroneous crud. I'm sorry I didn't see your post before or I would have chimed in LONG before now!

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:38 pm 
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I apologize if my words were offensive. And I am just speaking about my situation. That is why I continually say "for me." I am also by no means a NA fanatic. I have only been in the program for a month.

I think suboxone does save lives and gives people a chance to get their stuff together, but I also think there comes a time when most of us feel like we want to move on. Now, that time is different for everyone. My only purpose of my last post was to say that if someone has been off suboxone for a year and feels depressed, going back on suboxone to fix that depression is just plain silly. If you are using opiates again that is a completely different story and going back on might be the right option. but going back on suboxone for depression or cravings after a decent amount of clean time is the same exact behavior as taking dope to feel better. You will get high from it because you have been clean for awhile and you will just make those receptors calling for opiates to be unable to heal.

What got me out of those cravings was naltrexone and the vivitrol shot. Blocking my opiate receptors helped me move past those cravings knowing that I couldnt get high if i wanted to. That medication is truly a miracle. Getting past the depression is hard and takes work, maybe an antidepressant or a change in lifestyle. But the suboxone is not an antidepressant. It is in the very same class of drugs that may have caused you to feel this way. I wish everyone on suboxone the very best and if you are happy and healthy on it then by all means stay on it. I just know, for me, i still felt like I was on opiates and I didnt like that feeling.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:45 am 
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How or what is the diffrence? I don't get it. Why is it ok or any better for a person have to commit to
Life long meetings? Maybe a person feels the same way about life long meetings especially feeling like crap. That is ok, but it is taboo to take this RX for life. The dogma these days makes me
Want to twerk. Do what you have to do. It is ok believe me.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:29 pm 
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See, I'm new here and when I read stories about how much I'm messing up my body because I've been on Sub for so long, I kind of freak the fuck out.

I'm divided right in the middle. I would PREFER to be off of sub. (wouldn't we all if we truly had the choice?) But then I remember how I was BEFORE I went on it. Sure, if you go all the way back to childhood/teenage years I was always a little tortured but drug free. As an adult, I found my "cure" with pain killers. Worked for about the 1/2 half of my adult life then BOOM, not working any more. And by "not working any more" I mean, destroying my life.

So, for now. I take my chances with sub and antidepressants possibly destroying all my neurotransmitter receptors blood level microscosm R2D2 space modulators.

The last 2 years have been the most stable and precious years of my life. Maybe another BOOM is coming, but I just have to take my chances and enjoy the peace and make clear sober memories with my family.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:44 pm 
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I totally get what you're saying, Minnie. The thing is that people who hate sub tend to make things up to bolster their position. If they want to talk about their own experience they are free to do it within certain rules. One of the rules here is that you have to back up what you say if it isn't general knowledge. If you want to say that suboxone causes peoples' limbs to fall off, for example, we want to see your proof!

We offer support here to all kinds of folks. People who are just getting on sub, people who are considering it, people who are having problems with sub, and people who are trying to taper off it. If you need to decide what to do in your situation, you will get a variety of opinions here. We take relapse rates seriously here. We're always going to ask what you plan to do to assist in your recovery if you go off sub. There are lots of members here who truly have compassion for people making tough decisions.

So keep talking to us. Keep asking questions. We are here to help you as much as we can!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Agreed Amy.
My favorite is "suboxone can cause permanent damage if taken too long" or "you just have to let your receptors repair themselves".

But you're right. If you say suboxone makes your hair fall out, teeth rot off, or brain melt to mush, then show me the study that proves it... And don't use the excuse that suboxone is just so new and we don't know what it could be doing to us because that's just malarkey.

If you want the information, then research it a bit. Just search it online some. I think it might open your eyes a little maybe.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:06 pm 
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^ I personally don't think it's that unreasonable to believe that suboxone can cause side effects. Just take a look at the long list off possible side effects for Advil. Look at all the drugs that have been out forever that continuously come out with new warnings. Medications and side effects go hand in hand.

I don't, however, believe them to be all that life changing or threatening. I don't believe that it changes our brains forever. I think that is a bunch of bullshit that sub hater punks like to throw our way. I'm doing much better post suboxone than I ever did pre-sub and that's after 8 years (total) of maintenance. Minnie, skip those crazy rants when you see them, ok?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:43 pm 
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tinydancer wrote:
^ I personally don't think it's that unreasonable to believe that suboxone can cause side effects. Just take a look at the long list off possible side effects for Advil. Look at all the drugs that have been out forever that continuously come out with new warnings. Medications and side effects go hand in hand.

I don't, however, believe them to be all that life changing or threatening. I don't believe that it changes our brains forever. I think that is a bunch of bullshit that sub hater punks like to throw our way. I'm doing much better post suboxone than I ever did pre-sub and that's after 8 years (total) of maintenance. Minnie, skip those crazy rants when you see them, ok?


Haha! I'll do my best. And it's true that there are side effects for me. Whether or not from suboxone is probably up for debate. My gut tells me there are symptoms created just by the Suboxone. But, It's a risk analysis for me. The side effects from Suboxone outweighed the side effects from being an out of control crazy eyed pill popping monster who thought she had to die before she could get untangled. But that's just me.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:06 am 
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Minnie wrote:


So, for now. I take my chances with sub and antidepressants possibly destroying all my neurotransmitter receptors blood level microscosm R2D2 space modulators.


Bahahaha! So funny! Some of the crap I see "some people" say on this forum makes just about as much sense!

As for the posts saying that we don't have long term research about suboxone yet....I always think, maybe not. But we have plenty of research about long term effects of active addiction. Forgive me for being optimistic....but I'll take my chances with suboxone, thank you very much!

As for side effects...yes, I agree there are some people who experience some side effects with suboxone that aren't really documented as of yet with RB. I had a few myself when I started. BUT....none of them were bad enough to outweigh the benefits of sobriety! AND....all of my side effects disappeared after a few months of treatment. The initial induction phase might be a bit difficult for some, but it does equal out in most of us either with time or dropping our dose.

Minnie, if I haven't said so yet, welcome to the forum. I've enjoyed reading the posts from you that I have read so far. I hope you stick around!

Q

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