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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:45 am 
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I started subs on thursday and it started out ok. On Friday I woke with a headache and was nodding off when I sat down. So on Saturday I spit out the naloxone after taking my 8mg in the morning and my 2mg in the afternoon(dr wanted me to take 4mg but It was too much for me). When the evening came my head hurt so bad it was like someone was jabbing it with a knife, my vision was blurred, my eyes were fluttering and I was nodding off, my legs were twitching and my speech was slurred. Everytime time I closed my eyes I saw weird images and heard voices(like hallucinating). Finally I went to sleep, on Sunday morning my head still hurt bad so I just took 2mg and I fell asleep for 3hrs and still felt crappy so I didn't take anymore and started to feel better. Now here on Monday morning since I didn't take anything I feel fine, except now there are two soars on my upper lip, one on the outside, one inside.

I just called my doc and said "I am having bad reactions and I'm afraid to take the Suboxone anymore" she did not ask any symptoms or anything, she just said come in at 1:30 and hung up! Well I hope they don't mind if I take my 5yo daughter along cuz I don't have a choice. I just don't want to take it no more, why go in. It sucks this didn't work out for me, but I obviously can't take it. Nor can I afford it anymore anyway :(


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 Post subject: Too Much
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Hey RedVelvet,

I had to go back and read your original post about starting Suboxone on Thursday. You said you were taking 6-8 10mg Hydrocodone pills. That really isn't very much although you will suffer some withdrawals from it. It still shouldn't be that bad.

What I'm saying is, your doctor should never had given you the 8mg strip to start. It is waaaay too much for what you were taking. You should have been started on 2mgs and gone from there. My guess is 2mgs would have been just the right dose and you wouldn't have had those nasty reactions. But then I am not a physician.

The side effects you speak of are nothing but too high of dose. It is like trying to smash a fly with car. So discuss that with your doctor and see what he says. Mine was the same way. Started me off on way too high of dose and I threw up within an hour of taking my induction dose. I've done my fair share of heroin and know when I've taken too much and have the need to throw up. I told my Dr. and he just ignored it. It was me who reduced the dose to a more acceptable one. The Suboxone doctors have not taken it, they only go by what the company tells them so we tend to be the experts on dosage.

But if you feel like you don't want to be on it anymore, more power to you. You will suffer from some w/d's though, so be ready.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:40 pm 
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I agree with rule. I was taking a little more hydro than you, RedVelvet, and my doctor wanted to start me at 24mg/day. He gave me 8mg at my induction (but I took half of it out of my mouth, so I really took 4mg) and I got really high, and then very sick a few hours later. I probably didn't even need 2mg. I took more sub that night because that's what the doctor said, but I shouldn't have...just made me more sick. Anyway, I got stabilized on only 6mg/day the first week (a quarter of what was prescribed!!) and then cut to 5mg for a while, and now I am on 4mg and feel totally fine. I am going to try tapering again by the end of this week to 3mg. No way did I need 24mg/day, or even 8mg!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Hi Red Velvet,

I agree with what Rule said. It sounds to me like you are just on to high a dose. I think you mentioned on another post that you tried 2mg and it made the side effects better but did not take care of your cravings. That is probably where you need to stay. I know alot of people here say that they have NO CRAVINGS on suboxone. I don't think that everybody has that experience. I think we create the expectation for ourselves that this drug is going to make us feel just like we felt on our DOC just without the high...well, that's not how it works. At least for me. I have still experienced alot of cravings. However these are all mental cravings, not the physical withdrawal type. I just realized that it was kind of a good thing to have these now while I was on the suboxone so I could learn how to deal with them while I had this safety net. After all, when you quit suboxone you are going to have to learn how to deal with them, they aren't going to go away. The cravings have gotten better over the past weeks, every day is a little more normal. Maybe you just need to lower your expectations a bit about how you should feel while taking it. I hope you figure it out because my fear for you is that you will quit suboxone and go right back to your vicodin...reach out to your support system and let them help you through this. I'm not saying you have to have subs to get clean, but don't go backwards...you realized you needed help and wanted to stop the drugs, that still holds true, if you didn't need to quit you wouldn't have made this move. Stay strong!


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 Post subject: Back from the DR
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Thanks everyone. Rule, you are so right about the doctors, they are strictly book taught. I went in there and told him everything. Him and the nurse were so confused, they said I was the first patient they had that had bad reactions and the first one that either wasn't there for heroin or hard core pill usage. He couldn't understand why I coulnt just quit myself with what I was taking. Nice time to tell me this, but he is taking me off the sub and wants to see me in two days to see how I do and so far I'm ok. His knowledge is not that great with it. But the fact that I never doctor shopped or bought from the streets, always just got my monthly script for the same doctors, makes him think I'm not an addict. Well I always ran out early and went through withdrawals for a good four days or so til I got filled again. I'm thinking I will just wait it out and if I start to withdrawal or crave I will try 2mg, honestly I was getting high off my doses, I thought it was normal, but I guess not.

Thank you all for the great advice and support!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:27 pm 
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I wish you the best of luck RedVelvet....don't disappear on us. Keep us updated on your progress.


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 Post subject: Doctors
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:17 pm 
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How much power are you giving this particular doctor. We pay them and they provide a professional service -- we are their
employers. They should never be ordering us about, no matter how much they may think they are entitled.

The best ones can be identified -- they act like humans, not jerks.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:24 pm 
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I know what you mean about doctors and their power. He ain't too bad, he is a good listener, but I can tell he wasn't doing the Suboxone that long because his experience with addiction is not that great, or knowledge I should say. I'm doing ok so far but since I payed him for a month already he is going to see me a couple times a week since I'm not on the subs. So far so good!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:25 pm 
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RedVelvet wrote:
I started subs on thursday and it started out ok. On Friday I woke with a headache and was nodding off when I sat down. So on Saturday I spit out the naloxone after taking my 8mg in the morning and my 2mg in the afternoon(dr wanted me to take 4mg but It was too much for me). When the evening came my head hurt so bad it was like someone was jabbing it with a knife, my vision was blurred, my eyes were fluttering and I was nodding off, my legs were twitching and my speech was slurred. Everytime time I closed my eyes I saw weird images and heard voices(like hallucinating). Finally I went to sleep, on Sunday morning my head still hurt bad so I just took 2mg and I fell asleep for 3hrs and still felt crappy so I didn't take anymore and started to feel better. Now here on Monday morning since I didn't take anything I feel fine, except now there are two soars on my upper lip, one on the outside, one inside.

I just called my doc and said "I am having bad reactions and I'm afraid to take the Suboxone anymore" she did not ask any symptoms or anything, she just said come in at 1:30 and hung up! Well I hope they don't mind if I take mye 5yo daughter along cuz I don't have a choice. I just don't want to take it no more, why go in. It sucks this didn't work out for me, but I obviously can't take it. Nor can I afford it anymore anyway :(


Red, I was only on 2 tabs of 5mg loratab for three months and my doc said I was not addicted, However, he started me on 16mg of suboxone! Made me so nauseated, severe headache, and extreme nervousness, anxiety, and tremor. He said it was my anxiety and put me on Klonopin and got me tolerant on that! I switched to subutex b/c the naloxone was giving me headaches. I call the pharm. company that makes suboxone and they said he should have weaned me off the 2 pills instead of putting me on sub and certainly not at that dose! I did not feel good til I got to 1 or 2 mg which took 6 to 8months. In Feb I was down to .5 every 3 days and the week I was going to jump he upped my dose to 4mg for days. Tapered again to 1mg the 1st of March and he yo yoed my dose b/c of a tooth infection and extraction. Now he wanted me on 4 mg again and I refused. He argued w/ me and said I wanted to be in control. He set me up an agressive taper schedule that would make me very sick!!! Then he calmed down and told me to stay on a steady dose for a month. Prob. a good idea b/c my body is confused. However he wanted me at 3mg and I'm taking only 2.5 b/c 3 makes me so sleepy. He said that was not a side effect. I have seen it numerously on this forum. He told me to stay off this forum. Also, I just started neurotin that make you sleepy and have reactivated mono. I am so pissed off! I wasn't even addicted and been on subs for almost a year. I don't know how long you were on opiotes, but your dose is too high. Are your pupils dialated? You might try to switch to subutex b/c it doesn't have naloxone, but don't get trapped like me. Found out my doc only had 3 yrs experience. He was an allergist before! I don't know how to check these docs out before going to them. Let me know what happens. I will pray for you. Sub is not for everyone. You might be one of them.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Wow anxious, what a terrible thing to go through! Weening probably would've been the best for you, and for me. I was on Vic for three years, 6-8 pills a day. I did withdrawal without them, but weening me down could have helped. I was hoping subs would work, unfortunately they were not for me. I agree with the fact that we should be able to look into the docs background. This guys seems To be a family practitioner and still is. I went for my final visit with him today since I am no longer in the program. Now he agrees that I should have been weened on not put on subs. Because I am doing good now so he thinks that I made it through the detox part with the subs and should be fine. Well, I think he plays guessing games and doesn't even know! But I'm sure I will truck along just fine.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Hey Red,

Just curious, are you off your vics? If so great job! I know that even at just a few a day you can definitely still be addicted. Maybe you will be okay after getting through this week or so without them. I guess the physical withdrawal has to subside eventually...I think what these docs that aren't specialists in addiction discount are the mental withdrawals and cravings. How is that side of it going for you? I'm sorry that the subs didn't work for you...evidently they don't work for every person. Good luck on your recovery.


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 Post subject: Detox
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Red, how long were you on subs? Did you have any w/d from the subs or vics? If so how long. What pisses me off is I have been on subutex for one year. I wasn't addicted to opiotes but i'm sure I'm addicted to subutex now! I talked to another doc and she said I should have been weaned off the 2 loratabs or started on a suboxone dose no higher than 2 to 4 mg. I was sick for months b/c my dose was too high! Now the sub has stacked back up in my system since almost being off in Feb! I feel like I will never get off!!!!! This has been the biggest nightmare of my life! I never want to go throuh this EVER again!!! Congrats to you! I am envious!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:37 am 
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RedVelvet-

I too, was in treatment and they started me on 8 mg. Subs. I vomited for 36 hours straight and ended up on IVs to hydrate me. They kept giving me more Subs, thinking it was w/d, which only made matters worse. I look back and believe I was actually reacting to the Subs! I even asked the treatment center doc, who was prescribing if it could be a reaction to the Subs. He also said he had "never see any reaction like this". When I started weaning down, I felt better. Here I am 18 months later and dependent on this med. If I had it to do over again, when the doc asked me at the end of my treatment if I wanted to "get off the Subs or stay on the 2 mgs.", I wish I would have stopped then. That is just me, I know Subs help alot of folks, maybe it helped me for the first year stay clean-I will never know!
Good luck to you, this is not all in your head!


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 Post subject: sick on subs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Bettyboop, my doc said he had never seen anyone react to subs like I did and never had a patient in Three yrs that could not take subs. I vomited, was extremely nauseated, severe headache, and so nervous that my hands and body shook all the time. I would show him that these symptoms were listed as a serious side effect and he just said I had an anxiety prob. & popped me full of Klonopin! I felt horrible until I got to 1 or 2 mg. At that time I told him my dose had been to high and now I feel normal! That 8 hr course they take to be able to prescribe subs is not enough. Too many of these docs don't know what they are doing! Good luck.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:46 pm 
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sub have been great for me, but my appetite for opiates was taking 10 tens then looking for more in 4 hours this was my norm for years. also i was supplementing with any and all other opiates i could get. its really sad to think that sub is being given to those who should detox in another manner. i am sorry for u that has had a bad reaction due to a doctors ignorance on this powerful medicine. i hope that stories like that doesnt affect people like me who subs really has changed my dope chasing habits to really having to learn to live a normal life. doctors need to b more educated on the opiate addiction levels before passing out scripts for sub. i wish u all the best in recovery


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:48 pm 
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It's really concerning how many people come on here being put on such high doses, way more than they require.

It's damaging long term for a person if they end up more dependent on opioids from Suboxone than they were before they went on it. We all know it's real easy for people to become tolerant to opioids ... it's a lot harder for that tolerance to go back down.

I've found that my tolerance to opioids pretty much mirrors how much I crave them when I get off them. ie the higher my tolerance to opioids, the higher my chance of relapse is when I attempt abstinence and the more intense my cravings are in the months and years after I detox.

By allowing one's self to adjust and become tolerant to a dose of Sub that is too high for their needs - it only takes a couple of weeks to become tolerant - it becomes a LOT harder to get off opioids. When the tolerance goes up and the mu receptors upregulate, it leaves lasting changes, some of which remain long after a person gives up opioids completely.

If I were in the position of you guys (I gotta stress I'm not directing people do to things - just saying what I'd do) - I'd reduce my dose ASAP to one that's comfortable and doesn't make me feel stoned. I'd see my doctor and tell him that's the dose you want to be on. If the doctor doesn't agree, then I'd find a decent doctor.

I largely blame the misinformation that's fed to doctors about buprenorphine - that it is a "mild" opioid, that it is less dependence forming than other opioids, that it is somehow different to other opioids. A lot of the research and insights into opioid dependence the medical world has accumulated over the years appears to have been largely undone by campaigns to increase the sales of this drug. And we're the ones who pay for it, with out health.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:32 pm 
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I do agree that these docs need ti have more training and knowledge about how different each and every patient handles and reacts to things. Even though I was a 19 on the cows scale, he said I seemed much different than his other patients as far as withdrawals go. He said most of them pace or shake their legs like crazy and I was quiet and still, mainly because I was tired, I'm used to energetic buzz I got from vics. He also said I was the first person to react the way I did to the subs. Well did he think for a moment that I was the first one that did not need the full 8mg strip? I do believe subs is great for people that need it for heroin addiction or taking alot more pills than I have (6-8 vics/day) sometimes even less. When I was working it was probably 4-5 which was what was prescribed, since I'm layed off, yes I increased.

I have been doing ok so far. Yes I get thoughts when I'm tired or low energy. But I try to keep busy. 2mg is what I tried on the last day I took it, did help exept for my pain, which is making me go through advil like water now.

These docs should really have to take a course for at least a year to be certified so they can study the differences in people.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:04 am 
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Did anyone's doctors ask them questions about how many times they'd relapsed before going on Suboxone? Did any doctor suggest to them that they should at least once try to stay clean using non-pharma methods before resorting to maintenance?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:30 am 
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Red Velvet- glad to hear you are doing good without the Subs! I hope you are staying strong, glad to see you are still checking in, I was wondering about you.
My update: At my one week check up, I told my doctor I wanted off! My plan was to continue to wean and use only when I felt w/d symptoms. I quit, thinking it would be fine since I had only been on 8-9 days at that point. I stopped for 2 days and my system went into complete shock! I was in w/d every morning, agitated all day even after taking 4mg of Subs to help with the symptoms. I was back up to 4mg twice a day and STILL feel w/d signs every morning, and I have been feeling ups and downs all day.
I just saw the doctor today and he is increasing me to 4mg every 8 hours. I thought I could just be done with it, but I was very wrong. I started craving again, but did not cheat. I had an emotional breakdown today and just had to accept that I needed the Sub for now, and that it was OK. I was telling myself that being on the Subs was not a "full recovery" so I convinced myself that I just didn't need them, that and the $200 out of pocket every visit with the doctor and therapist! I am out of work, and feel like a drain on my family, but I have to take care of me now.
I am submitting to the fact that I need help and the doctor knows best right now. I can think about weaning once things are stabilized. I just hope that it doesn't make it harder to come off of Subs if I stay on them for 2-3 months like the doctor wants....


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:50 am 
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Hi All,
I have been on Suboxone for since April 3rd. I had been taking 3 lortabs and 3 daulidad per day. I had taken it for 3 years, I was having severe back pain and went to a pain management specialist. So that helped until I started having mroe severe attacks on my back that took me out of work for days and I missed an entire week one time. So I wound up having a scan of my back and that's when all hell broke loose.
After getting back to the dr, the scan showed a tumor inside my left kidney, it wasn't my back at all, it was CANCER. I lost everything in those moments of being told it's a 95% chance it's cancer. So he sent me to a Urologist and he done some scans and it was cancer . So I had to have my whole kideny removed in October 2010 and just stayed on the pills even after the surgery , I was hooked on it how good I felt from taking them.
So this year, I decided it was time to quit, I went to the Sub Dr and he told me I needed 8mg at 3 / day. He has lost his mind, I took 4mg for 2 weeks and begin to have severe panic attacks and throwing up after the 2nd week. So I am so lost right now on what I need to do. This stuff is way too styong for me and I cannot take this stuff, I cut to about 1/16th of the film about 5 days ago. It relieves the w/d's but I stress stress out to the point of making myself sick as hell, I think it's from the Sub but I am not doctor so I'm not certain but he wants me at 8mg 3/day and that isn't gonna happen anytime soon.
I have seen the Sub do wonders for some and that is great but its not for me so what to do ? I haven't taken anything, I put in my head I was stopping the pills and did. I flushed the 180 daulidads and 100 Lortabs so going back to that is not an option that I would do anyone. But I am starting to miss work for feeling so bad, its like the flu or something but I am scared to death to take something for that to make me feel better. I had to take off work today because I am stressed out , I called the Dr about the stress and they said nobody they have ever had in treatment has my side effects but I think they are incorrect after reading this site
Any help would greatl be appreaciated ! I am so lost in what to do at this point since I am at less than 1mg total / day because I cannot take this.


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