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 Post subject: Babies on morphine?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Is it legally the parents choice if the baby is put on a morphine drip for withdrawals. If I feel he is eating fine and is acting normal can I turn down the morphine?? I live in California.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:28 pm 
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I would sure hope that it would be a parents choice. On the other hand, I am sure there are cases where the parent has a obscured opinion, perhaps due to denial. Either way, I feel it should ultimately be the parents choice. Ya know, there are so many possible arguements. Bupe withdrawl can be severe in some newborns and the parents may have lack of funds as a motivation to choose not to treat baby. Theres just so many variables. Hope you find the answer best for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:12 pm 
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In Michigan I was told by a nurse on L&D floor that we had the right to refuse but that if it came to that Dr's and NICU nurses would not be happy with us saying no...by standing our ground on how we felt abt the morphine(considering he only had 4-5 scores over 8 but never higher than 12) we were able to avoid him being put on morphine but we made it known we did not want him on it from the start unless he truly needed it which I am not a dr but he did not. All he needed was me to hold him. His w/d symptoms were minimal and typical newborn behavior. Our baby was the 1st in our hospital to leave without morphine! I felt so blessed and also hope that he showed that staff not every baby needs morphine! We have to be our childrens advocate I truly believe if we hadn't stood our ground to make sure everyone knew how we felt abt morphine that they would have started him on it @ some point while i wasn't there. they seem all too ready to start babies on morphine i wish they could find another way because sub is a partial antagonist and morphine is full antagonist I would think with morphine they are getting way more drugs then they ever did in the womb! Plus by the time they start it 48-72 hrs after birth the babies have already gone threw some w/draw if it isn't severe it would seem better to get baby threw those next couple days being comforted and soothed by mom as long as the baby is safe of course. I think SOME nurses are very judgmental when scoring these babies and it makes me sick! They don't understand sub or why people take sub and its really too bad. Good luck! Praying for you...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:47 am 
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I bet if someone were willing to go to court over this the outcome would be that the parents have the right to refuse. However, usuallly what seems to happen is that the parents are feeling vulnerable, and the medical staff often uses shame tactics on the mother who is already feeling guilty for being an addict and/or being on Sub during pregnancy.
I think the best thing to do is what dudex said, hold your ground and use data and logic to stand by your argument that morphine is not warranted. Others have also recommended dealing directly with the doctor, and don't get into arguing with the nurses on the floor.
One other thing I should mention is I have seen in other cases (not related to NAS) where the parents were bullied into medicating their child with the argument that their wishes were "against medical advice" and the threat of calling child protective services was made. In other words they were accused of not acting in the best interest of their child. Again, the best thing is to stay calm and professional, let them know that you want the best care for your child and try not to let things escalate to being adversarial.
I wish you all the best,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:40 am 
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You have received some great advice. I had twin girls in Oct of last year, one was in the nicu 8 days and the other 11 days. I was not on sub or any opiates during that time so i do not have experience with that but I have experience with how the nicu works. If it is possible for you I would spend every waking minute at the nicu the first 3-4 days. When you are there they can't do anything behind your back. Also drs usually make their rounds in the morning, if you can't be there all day you should be there in the morning to hear exactly what's going on from the Dr and make your wishes known to him. You will quickly learn what time the Dr comes by as it is always pretty much the same everyday. Also when my babies were there and I had to leave I left orders that I was to be called before changing anything or doing any procedures.

Besides being there so they can't start something without your knowledge, this will help show the nurses you are a good mom and really care for your baby. This may cause them to loose some of their prejudice and treat you and your baby fairly. I wish you and your baby all the best and sincerely hope you don't have to worry about anything we've said here. Try not to stress as much as possible and take care of yourself!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:47 pm 
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When would a baby need morphine?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:53 pm 
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I had a baby boy almost eight months ago.

My son didn't show any signs of NAS until the day we were scheduled to be discharged, (about 72hrs after birth).

Even that morning when the Ped. examined my baby, she didn't feel that he had NAS. However, ONE nurse (a new nurse whom had just come on shift and hadn't been around us all wknd), felt that my son was exhibiting withdrawl symptoms. So, the Ped. informed me that they'd keep us until that night, and score my son throughout the day. Luckily, he never scored higher than a 5.


http://www.dh.sa.gov.au/PPG/Portals/0/N ... dix-10.pdf

Here is a link to the scale hospitals use to determine if a baby is in withdrawl, and for deciding if medication is needed.



To this day, Im not sure if my baby had NAS or not. He was pretty fussy that last day (and became increasingly fussy until the next morning). But, my milk hadn't come in either......and I KNOW he was hungry. Thank God, my milk came in.......in the middle of the night, our first night home. I must note, that was a LONG NIGHT! Until my milk came in, my baby was inconsolible. It scared the crap outta my husband and I. We even considered taking him back to the hospital.

We stuck it out, and did what we could to comfort our son. The next day (after he'd had actual breast milk), our son was calm and happy. We had a follow-up appt with his Ped. that next day.......she said he was fine, and that she didn't see any NAS.

So, personally.....I think my baby DID have mild NAS, but was also VERY, VERY HUNGRY.
Its hard to know for sure sometimes (if a baby truly has NAS), because some of the symptoms of NAS are things that most healthy babies do anyways. I second what was stated above; do research before giving birth, together w/your O.B come up with a plan for worst case scenario, be present and involved as much as possible in treating/caring for your baby.

If your child does end up having to be treated for NAS, you'll likely get judgment from someone along the way. But, if your honest with your healthcare professionals, and if you're an advocate for yourself/your baby......in the end, you'll prove that you're a responsible, loving parent. Your attitude can also play a big part in your treatment.

Good Luck! I hope you have a wonderful birthing experience!
Please keep us updated.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:34 am 
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Wow. After reading some of those symptoms, it's obvious that doctors have had to deal with some very sick babies in the past. But to score no higher than 5 looks like it could be just new-born behaviour?

This is something I know very little about. What dose of buprenorphine were you guys on?

Some years ago I remember I was talking to a relative who's an anaesthetist about this stuff. He said the reason they use methadone / morphine is because they have the long term data to show it's safe.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:13 am 
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I am currently on 1 mg of subutex and trying to skip days. My doctors know and I almost regret telling them because I feel it just makes them more prepared to critisize and judge. I am so afraid he will hurt but hopeful he won't. My sub doctor also flipped his lid when I mentioned my obgyn talking about starting baby on comfort meds. He said he hates how doctors start babies on morphine when it is a full agonists and sub is a partial! I agree. Unless my little boy is suffering, can't eat, sleep, or shaking/ spasming I do not want him on a 30 day taper of such strong medicine. Plus my grandmother is passing and trying to hold on to meet my lil one. It means so much to my family although it isthecycle of life. One life ends and another begins. Besides he can't miss Xmas with the family either!!! Oh the stress. I'm just so thankful i have this site with soo much support! Thank you all and god bless!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:39 am 
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I really don't know if this will help, considering I'm not a baby anymore and have no experience with this. But withdrawal definitely turns me into a big baby. Plenty of warm baths are always comforting any detox symptoms, so if you have concerns that your baby might go through anything, maybe it could help? I actually put baths & spas as more relieving than any medication.

Yeah, I don't know how I feel about babies being put on more opioids. How can a doctor really gauge how dependent an infant is? I can understand if a mother is on a high dose of methadone or buprenorphine, but 1mg?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:21 am 
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Any time there's a new thread on pregnancy that involves NAS I like to reference Dr. Junig's blog, one post in particular:

http://suboxonetalkzone.com/2010/02/wit ... uilt-trip/

If any of you have not yet read this blog post, you need to do so. It's an extremely informative one and will only add to your knowledge of NAS and what newborns go through.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:09 pm 
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new here,i would just like to throw my hat in here since i currently have a child in nicu.
i live in nys and i can assure you my wife and i were dead set against are baby being put on morphine and even going into nicu!
like others have said the test they have to diagnose nas are so ridiculous with most symptoms being things every baby dose.
we have been fighting them since the moment hes been in there and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.
by the way hes been in there 3 weeks and counting!


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