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 Post subject: what to do
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:53 pm 
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I now have much more information thanks to very kind responders. And yet I am writing this because things are happening fast now and margins for error are slim.

A doctor friend of mine and my current pain doctor think I can stay on this oxy and m/s and gradually reduce it. This did work with Ativan - which is this giant unknown. Having taken it for so long GABA (which comprises half of transmitters) and keeps anxiety (fight/flight) in check --- a buffer. Almost for sure the damage to that system has not rehabed itself. It downregulated and needs to come back - it needs time.

The taking of oxy for years has kept ortho pain in check --- and, may have helped eliminate Ativan. But this standard dose for all of this, remaining the same, has kept me at what I call "constant reduced withdrawal". At tolerance, things got worse because it was taken only to avoid terrible w/d, never reaching the quite nice feeling of normal. These things have impacted health and made it hard to do hard things.

With this reduction in place last night I ran out during the day. It was one of the worst things I have experienced - a sharp abdominal pain all night with some exhausted sleep for an hour. Dream was evil itself -- so long. In the am my wife picked up the rx (enabling I know - I could not have gone)- and just now I feel the relief of quitting hitting myself with a hammer. It is still far below what life should be, but not killing.

With these reductions it is clear there is more ortho physical pain than I thought - and it is sharper. But, it is also clear that the w/d is the far worse thing. This is now clear. If last night were the first night in some 14 day cold turkey w/d there is no way I could do that --too weak and there has been too much of this for that to work.

There remains that hope of small reduction of drugs to nothing. But I would need to increase the dose - and then go slowly. With Ativan this worked, but current dr. way far from this idea.

This leaves Sub and Methadone. With the two types of pain there this kind of argues for methadone I think. Based on everything I am thinking of trying to get an earlier appt with this doctor and give all the facts - perhaps requesting methadone for now -- at least for now to see. I did write a letter to another doctor and got a referral also - physiatrist dealing with ortho damage and pain. This is as close as I can come to following the advice to making appts. and see who is who.

will be completely honest, but not quite sure what to ask for. If left as is the rapid taper is too hard. Maybe with sleep.
running out of the energy to do this - ....one thing that would help to know ----this constant dizzy unstable feeling -- I know it was related to GABA, but could it be from this oxy up and down as well. I would hate to think it is here to stay - makes most activity not fun.

Have not given up yet - and really do appreciate the help.

Another thing that would be good to know -- if a complete switch to methadone - what can I expect from that in terms of making one dizzy, lethargic, and tapering potential? Just know so little -- if it would be bette than oxy.

thanks for all the help-

S


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:30 pm 
Methadone is very effective!! It will completely relieve your pain and withdrawal. Its a long acting opiate and i think it will fit just perfectly into the picture. My absolute best advice is methadone methadone methadone methadone. Im only sayin that because the way you speak of your pain, i just dont see any other effective method. It will give you all the things you will require. Methadone gives you energy, good mood, pain free etc. etc. I really feel all your needs will be satisfied through methadone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:30 pm 
Sounds like someone who likes taking there opiates and is using some pain as an excuse, sorry if thats to blunt but its how it seems. I have a friend who pulls the same shit and has Rx after Rx of opiates and xanax and justifies being a junkie because he needs it for "pain" like hes somehow better than me because I got addicted because it releived my anxiety and depression. At first I felt bad for you man but after reading like 20 posts that are like novels that frankly sound like self pity it gets tiresome. You've gotten plenty of solutions from people. You dont need to taper off the oxy or morphine or anything if you truly want to quit, you just get on suboxone and then stay on it or taper off it. I was using around 500-700mg of morphine daily along with some pills and xanax, phenazepam at my worst and I didnt taper off any of it, was inducted on 16mgs of suboxone and within a week or two that was that, no withdrawal symptoms. Ive been on suboxone ever since and that was around 6 months ago. You can get mad at me for what I said but Im just calling it how I see it, I pulled the same shit when I was in active addiction but honestly everyone of us on this board have suffered like you are suffering now and we all made it out the other side with suboxone so I dont see why you dont take the advice and either get on subs or methadone.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:19 am 
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suboxowned -- didn't force you to read. You are right about the pain being an excuse for oxy however. There is a femur that looks more like moon of Jupiter than a billiard ball-- and that does hurt. But-- at that time I was coming off 9 mg of Ativan as best I could. That is the equiv of 90 mg of valium - but worse. I truly hope you never take Ativan and then quit -few things more dangerous or hard. Most people of course are not stupid enough to take Ativan.

Lifesaver-- I appreciate the message. Have learned a lot about switching to something other than oxy to eliminate oxy. you advocate methadone and it makes sense to me that it would do two things and could be tapered. Why do you think all the posts on methadone end up singing the praises of suboxone I'm sure you have seen them. If valid it would cause great concern about trying a conversion to methadone. Interested in your thoughts. If you were given 75mg of oxycodone and 45mg of morphine sulphate -- and had complete control-- how much methadone would you take, and how would you taper if you wanted to taper off.

thanks,

S


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 Post subject: to suboxowned
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:29 am 
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just curious about one thing --- why do you think there is a distinction between pain, anxiety, and depression. They are all real suffering and can range from low to extremely bad. No moral high ground with pain that I see. As a matter of fact -- if I were given the choice of keeping one thing and eliminating the others, I would keep the ortho pain and say goodbye to the anxiety and depression - they are much worse to me.

S


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:11 pm 
How much methadone it would take could not be answered unfortunately because of differences in a persons metabolism, what might work for you may not work for me and vice versa. The methadone clinic by me starts people out on 30mgs of methadone and then raises there dose by like 5-10mgs daily I think until they reach a dose where they are stable. Lots of the people Ive talked to on it have stabilized around somewhere in between 75-100mgs. You gain tolerance to methadone though and if you are not taking the initiative to control your own recovery and want to take more for the wrong reasons (being stable without withdrawal but saying you arent to get a dosage raise) the clinic will be more than happy to oblige and raise you up to an ungodly amount of methadone over time and soon you will find yourself just as tolerant but instead of a monkey on your back you have a 5000 lb gorilla. Methadone is completely safe and effective used correctly but the people on 300-500mgs of methadone is just insane. The clinic wants to keep you on it contrary to what most people think (that you get on it for a brief period and get off) thats how they make their money and from friends who have been on it they were almost always discouraged by the Dr. to not taper or try to get off it when they asked to do so. Ive also heard that if you do insist on a taper they drop you so fast and you get so freaking sick that you will come crying back to get on your original dose. Now I dont know how common that situation is but I tend to believe it because it was told to me by a trusted friend who had no reason to lie. Im going to get on methadone in the future when Im able to but I already know what to expect with it and I will never allow myself to be raised passed 150mgs, hopefully I wont even need to go past 100mgs but I wont know until I get on it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:38 am 
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Unfortunately, pain causes anxiety and depression so there is no way to get rid of those when you have pain. They all go hand in hand.

Scruffy, I think you are going to have to really sit with doctors and ask all of these really tough questions. What I have found through my own journey is that there is no perfect answer when it comes to pain, addiction, dependency. It isn't like some medical finding where there is a greater percent chance of success with X surgery over Y given the findings and you pick X. The decisions are difficult and they all carry risk with them. For me, it's one of those things I don't want to be responsible for so I prefer to focus on finding a good intelligent doctor who seems to care and seems to listen, tell them, and let them decide for me what they think is best. It isn't like I throw my own thinking out the door, but it is too difficult to try to figure it out on my own. So I would just focus (like you have been) on finding the best doctor you can and getting in ASAP.

Again, I wish you luck and am very sorry you feel like crap.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:22 am 
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scruffy wrote:
suboxowned -- didn't force you to read. You are right about the pain being an excuse for oxy however. There is a femur that looks more like moon of Jupiter than a billiard ball-- and that does hurt. But-- at that time I was coming off 9 mg of Ativan as best I could. That is the equiv of 90 mg of valium - but worse. I truly hope you never take Ativan and then quit -few things more dangerous or hard. Most people of course are not stupid enough to take Ativan.

Lifesaver-- I appreciate the message. Have learned a lot about switching to something other than oxy to eliminate oxy. you advocate methadone and it makes sense to me that it would do two things and could be tapered. Why do you think all the posts on methadone end up singing the praises of suboxone I'm sure you have seen them. If valid it would cause great concern about trying a conversion to methadone. Interested in your thoughts. If you were given 75mg of oxycodone and 45mg of morphine sulphate -- and had complete control-- how much methadone would you take, and how would you taper if you wanted to taper off.

thanks,

S


One time when I was on 75mg oxycodone a day, I switched to Methadone. I leveled off around 20mg/day and it was stronger than the oxycodone was by far.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:06 am 
Jamez:

I would have to agree that even just 20mg's of methadone is strong as hell!! I have never nor will i ever understand someone who says methadone doesnt work. Thats insane!! That thought kinda popped in my head when you mentioned the strength of methadone cuz i've heard people try to say that it didnt work for them.

Scruffy:

I just think that given your situation, methadone is gonna be your best bet cuz you sound as if you are needing some serious pain control and i dont see suboxone giving you that type of pain relief. However methadone would most definitely give you the relief you need times 10 and craving relief as well. As for the amount of methadone you will require, i wouldnt be able to answer that accurately. The stuff your talking about that you've read is just different individuals situations and not everybody is gonna like the same thing or feel the same way. Thats what i take from that. Hope this helps!!


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