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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:18 am 
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beautifullybroken wrote:
Occamsrazor,
Wow dude, are you ok? Your not making any since, sound's like you been hanging out with my uncle Willis back in the hills of North Georgia drinking some of that white lightening.

Seriously, I hope you find some help. Life's too short for all the b.s man.


What since am I not making? Could you be more specific?
PS. I won`t find help because I`m not looking for any. To me drugs and life in general are a solitary game, I deal with my mistakes myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:35 am 
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Ok, then why may I ask are you here? You do know this is a support forum for people taking suboxone, right?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:17 am 
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beautifullybroken wrote:
Ok, then why may I ask are you here? You do know this is a support forum for people taking suboxone, right?


I`m here to share with others what I believe are some truths I`ve discovered during my addiction. I have a limited experience taking sub and a vast amount of knowledge about drugs of abuse. I`ve never met anyone who has actually quit sub but I`ve met plenty of ex-heroin addicts who are completely clean for many years. My common sense dictates that if one has a choice between taking any drug and not taking it, the right choice is not taking anything, unless it`s a matter of 100% certain death. The choice of becoming a sub or meth lifer is to be considered when there is 100% certainty of never again being able to function without opioids. Such cases are rare and are usually the product of our wonderful system which hooks junkies on methadone in large amounts. People get 100% clean even after decades of abusing short-acting opioids. It`s the PAWS that wears addicts out and causes relapses and as we know methadone and in many cases sub PAWS lasts for many months unlike heroin PAWS. Becoming a lifer purely due to psychological weakness and inability to fight off cravings after major heroin abuse is not enough reason to become a meth or sub lifer. I see plenty of people here saying they became lifers because it sure as hell beats buying dope every day.

In short, if you can hope to be able to physically function without any opioid, then detox any way you want and be free. To do otherwise is like choosing to spend your life in a wheelchair after you broke your leg and started walking with a limp.
An honest doc must tell you after your 1st visit and learning about your drug history whether you have a chance of an opioid-free life or if you are likely that rare candidate for life-long maintainance. If you have a chance, he should clearly define how long you should be on high amounts of sub after the induction, after which you should do a fast taper. 1-2 months should be plenty for anyone to get used to reality again and start tapering, hopefully to zero during the next month.
So, the whole suboxone affair for those wanting to quit should be no longer than 2-3 months. Every second that one is on any opioid one is making the addiction worse.

Have you noticed that doctors do not define what their objectives are when they start you on sub? They just give you the script and tell you to take 8-16mg without telling you what you would accomplish in terms of lessening your physical dependance by taking these amounts for months. They also don`t tell you about how hard it is to quit when you get down to the crumbs, most people discover this unusual fact from their own experience, nor do they tell you about the uniquely long sub PAWS. My doctor didn`t tell me anything, most things I know now about sub I`ve learned on the net and on the street.

Having cravings for dope as the sole reason to take sub would be akin to getting on a physically addictive drug in order to treat cocaine cravings.


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 Post subject: Fake sugar.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 am 
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Hey Guy. I read your post, & I remembered all my "friends" that smoked crack, but would not put seasonings on their food because they fared high blood pressure! Not poking fun @ you, just thinking that the artificial sweetner in my Sub is a great tradeoff for years & years of suffering. I hear your side too, but I'm living a million times better that when I was doing dope. Hope you do well too. Stick w/ it, & God bless!...Scottcat.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Well, just because you don't know people that have taken suboxone for a while and then come off of it doesn't mean there aren't any, there are several on here. If you go to the "stopping suboxone" thread you can read several, including mine. I'm on day 8 after 18 months on suboxone and althought the w/d's are not easy by far it's not the end of the world, i'm on the internet typing so that must say something, right. I remember you saying your taking subs now, are you unhappy with your progress? or the way you feel? I guess I can only assume you are. Although I had a tough time with depression while on it and plus I had like every negative side effect there is, I still have to be thankful that during this time on subs I've been able to learn how to live my life without trying to escape reality by getting high. It's not a miracle drug, for those of us unlucky enough to be opiate or even heroin addicts we have got to learn to cope with life without abusing drugs, there is just no easy answer, not right now anyway, maybe someday they will figure it out but for now, we gotta do what we gotta do. In my struggles to stop subs I've felt very angry at times, I know it was easier for me to stop my oxy addiction than it has been for me to stop subs and that is a FACT but the problem was that I kept going back to opiates and I freaking hated myself for it. I think if nothing else this whole ordeal has taught me a lesson and sometimes that's just what people need. I needed this to be hard, if it was easy and I knew that I could go back to my doc and fall back on an easy way out, I might not be where I am with this today.
I have another question for you though, if you believed it was much easier to just stop using without the assistance of suboxone or methadone then why did you choose to start suboxone? Just curious
I don't agree with your points of view but it's different for everyone, I'd much rather see someone happy on subs living a normal life, taking care of their business and being good parents/husbands/wives whatever then having to watch the clock and keep the high maintained, It aint no way to live, nobody could convince me that's better than subs, nobody. Your not very convincing because your on subs right now. What's the difference in two months two years or a lifetime, your working toward the same goal, staying the hell away from your doc, right? That's what we're all doing, it's just not a point worth arguing really because there is no easy solution.
I wish you the best of luck, we're all just trying to live right and have a quality life.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:14 am 
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I`m not saying soboxone is not the best tool to detox from opioids. I firmly believe it is and I`m very thankful that it exists.
The first few days after the induction is hell, sub doesn`t supress all the symptoms and the weakness is incredible, unable to take showers or brush teeth for 3-4 days, just lie in bed and smoke cigs, drink coffee and pop advils and aspirin.
Plus the fact that sub doesn`t make you high creates instant sobriety, not that I consider the opioid high to be a state of mental impairment. Opioid high is more of a general bodily feeling of pleasure than drunkenness, which to me is the main reason for taking opioids. I hate mental confusion brought upon by booze and grass so opioids became my thing.

The unique absense of the opioid high is the reason many choose methadone instad of sub so they can continue being wrapped in the God`s blanket. Having chosen sub shows one has made the most difficult step and has chosen sobriety.


I wish bup was injectable as in France so I could shoot it, the effects would be faster AND the dosage would be much more precise ( the addiction to the needle itself is very strong, I had to shoot vitamin B12 all the time during the 1st few days after the induction because I needed to shoot something, even water. The brain releases actual endorphines while shooting anything if you are a needle addict so the real placebo effect is surely there) . Remember that sub has 30-70% bioavailability so one NEVER knows how much one ingests every time. The absorbtion depends on the current state of the oral mucosa, the current saliva flow, the time of holding it in your mouth, the actual technique of taking it, whether one swirls it around etc.

Today I took only 1.5mg, yesterday was 2 mg and 1 month ago was 16mg. I know that the real hell awaits me when I go below 1mg but I agree with Uncle Bill aka William Burroughs that it`s not the intensity of pain which wears addicts out and causes relapses but the length of it. He recomended fast tapers from opioids and I will try to do the same. Imagine having a tooth pulled streched out for a few months in order to avoid the shock of sharp pain. The same applies to opioid withdrawl, reasonably faster tapers are better.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:27 pm 
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I completely agree about dragging out w/d's, that's why I choose to do this cold turkey. A lot to be considered, health and what works best for an individual are just a couple.

For me, subs did make me feel high, sorta. It wasn't like my doc of course but for me it was better because I instantly stopped craving the shit, instantly. I assumed that's how it worked for everyone. You didn't stop craving? I understand you had a few days of hell, I didn't have that because I was already in w/d when I began subs. Any feeling I got from subs went away within a month, if that long, which kinda made me want to start trying to abuse the subs to get a high at first and after playing with my dosing and reaching a ceiling I realized it wasn't going to happen and I had to adjust to life without being high. That's when my healing began.

I totally know what you mean about the warm feeling of opioid abuse, ahhhh how we addicts love that. What I had to do was reach back in my mind and remember life before addiction, and yes I had a great life before addiction. I was happy and fulfilled and I didn't need to feel warm or chase a high. I mean is a warm feeling really worth all the other sacrafices, no, it didn't feel that good. I can only imagine if we could bring back to life a few of the millions and millions of young lives lost to overdose caused by trying to feel warm and they had it to do over they would choose the warm moments life gives us instead of opioid abuse. It really hit me when I was watching Dr. G on tv and she was doing an autopsy on a young woman who died from overdose and I saw the hurt her mother and her children were going through, not being able to comprehend why they had to lose her to a "feeling". The fact was she had lost everything for her warm feeling and it is not worth it. I had several scary moments like probably a lot of us here where we over did it and in that moment when you realized what you did, when your heart beat starts to slow down and your eyes cannot be forced open and you think what if this is it, was it worth it? NO! HELL NO! If you want to make it through this you are going to have to stop lying to yourself and allowing this drug to fool you into believing anything about it is good. Don't sit around wasting your time mourning this shit. Your glorifying a freaking nightmare, I have no idea how you can compare subs to narcotics, I don't see it. Yes, I realize they work on the same receptor but the point is that subs lack the effect that the abuser is searching for, the warm feeling, it's not there, no euphoria, so yes, while on subs your going to feel somewhat satisfied it's not because your high. For someone who wants to be high they will very quickly ditch subs for their previous doc and that's without question. If a person begins subs because they believe they can get high from them they will move on very quickly. Your not abusing a drug when your using to prevent a disease, and this is a disease.

I just want to see you make it through this. I feel your pain, I do. I have watched intervention enough to recognize that the needle is a huge part of an addiction, they all say the same thing as soon as they inject it the high begins, or as soon as they see the blood, but I don't think you want to keep pushing a needle in hopes that it will cure your desires. I'm no expert on that subject I've never used in that way before but I know one thing, our brains learn from habit, habit can be our best friend or worst enemy, it can make us everything we want to be or everything we don't. The good news about habit is the way it works which is by repetition. You have trained it, now you must untrain it, and it's just the same principle. It will take time, triggers must be recognized and they must be corrected and only you have the power to change it.
Look deep within yourself for strength. I am lucky enough to be very strong minded it's the only thing that's got me this far and I owe my determination everything. I have never in my entire life not been able to walk away from something and I will damned if this is going to be the first.
Please stick around, read read read, somewhere you will find the strength to get through this, you will. You've come this far so don't let it suck you back up. Don't underestimate it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:34 am 
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Sub does nothing to alleviate my cravings, I think about shooting dope all the time. I`m not physically sick for which I`m very thankful. I try to do the smallest dose to keep out of wds, about 1mg at a time, twice a day. I want to get completely clean and stay that way for 6 months to get my receptors back to normal. What I`ll do after that only God knows.
I hope I`ll never get hooked on dope again but I cannot imagine never having that "feeling" ever again.
Also I hope that by the time I`m clean for a few months my life will be filled with things to keep me from seeking drugs.
I had a wonderful life before dope and I was too busy with my career and many hobbies to ever crave any drugs even though I did every drug in the book to the max in my college days.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:21 am 
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Occamsrazor sounds like you need to be on a higher dose if you feel that way. You need to think about relapsing and your future if you still have such cravings. And not be so worried about the fake sugar in the subs. That honestly should be the least of your worries. I hope you don't mind me being honest with you, but from everything I have read on this thread, you don't sound very recovered to me and going off sub may be a very dangerous mistake. One relapse can kill you, no matter how much you diet and exercise.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:28 am 
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I have to agree with RTL. At that low dose you're having cravings because you're below the ceiling (which is about 4 mg and above). Also, at those low doses, sub ends up acting more like a full agonist/regular opiate than the partial agonist it is. Quite simply if below the ceiling, sub just can't address your cravings. Good luck.

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