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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:56 pm 
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Hi,
I am new to this website, however I have been on some sub forums before. I might also add that I am 37 yrs old with a full time job, a wife, and responsibilities.

Yesterday I was a little confused when I got this message:

"The following is a warning which has been issued to you by an administrator or moderator of this site.
Quote:
Statements like the ones you've recently posted are not productive to the members recovery here. Please refrain from either bashing Suboxone or posting about how your drug use is still in use.

This is a recovery forum. Posting about taking Molly or whatever drug of choice socially is of no help to those trying to stay clean and sober.

from mod/admin Rule62"


***Ok, first off, I wrote in a post that I take ecstasy once every couple months. I was wrong for writing that because I understand posting about other drug use is not ok. I was not aware of this and won't do it again.***

But my main issue here is this: I have good things to say about suboxone and bad, and I feel I should be able to express all these opinions. Is this not a forum to voice "our experiences with buprenorphine"? It is crazy that this person thinks I should only talk good about it and not bad. And I didn't even really say anything bad or bash suboxone. I merely said that I am on a strong opiate and that I do not consider myself clean, as far as NA standards go. And I kept it "on the I" when I said that, just saying I don't consider myself clean, not a general statement that YOU or ONE is not clean while on it. I remember being off suboxone and it was amazing how many emotions came back that I never realized were missing until I was off it. Yes, I feel mostly sober on it, but I notice a slight mood change when I take it, so to me I am not clean.
Subs have been a godsend for me but I have a serious love/hate relationship with them, and sometimes the scale tips towards hate. So, can I not express that?
I'm confused.
If I am told to leave then whatever, I think I'll be ok, but I wanted to stick around and talk to people about subs and the different issues I have because of being on them.

I wrote back to the mod telling them basically this, so I guess i'll see what she/he says.

Thanks for listening


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:39 pm 
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Sun,
I've noticed this too. I've yet to get a message from a mod about it. But I feel the same way you do. There are days where suboxone is a god send, but the majority of the time I regret ever getting on suboxone. I have so many horrible side effects from it, and it doesn't do much to reduce my cravings. Unfortunately I do not function well on suboxone. And I will never ever consider myself clean while taking it. I mean, I'm not getting high, but how can I consider myself clean when I didn't have to do anything but get on a different type of opiate? I mean induction wasn't great, but you can't compare that to true opiate withdrawals that last for weeks. Its unfair that your allowed to say any & all things good about suboxone, but not the other side of the spectrum. If I had seen & read more stories like my own, I may have reconsidered taking suboxone in the first place. I do believe that some people are better off taking suboxone for the rest of their lives, rather than IV heroin for the rest of their life. However, too many people get on suboxone for very miniscule opiate use. And stay on it, then throw it in people's face that their clean. If I've been clean since I started suboxone, then why would I ever try to get off it? Its much easier to not have to go through any withdrawal.

Everyone is titled to their opinion, & I would never post on someone's forum saying their not clean & their life is a lie. I support any type of treatment plan that works for you. But if I feel like I'm not clean while I'm taking sub's, then I should be allowed to voice my opinion. Just like the people who feel their clean by taking sub's. Honestly the fact that people on this site get so defensive about "shit talking" suboxone, makes me think that a lot of them are really insecure about taking suboxone & calling themselves clean.

And as far as the other drug use goes, isn't that one of the reasons this forum is here? To post honestly about issues your having with sobriety?

I feel your pain & I hope that you'll be allowed to say on this site. Hopefully won't be kicked off (which would be crazy! We're all here trying to help each other right?)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:59 pm 
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I agree with you about not considering myself clean. We should be able to talk about it. That is one of the main reasons I joined this forum was to read about other peoples experiences with the drug. Good or bad. This is how we learn and educate ourselves, and then form our own opinions on what to do next.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:30 pm 
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day_to_daze wrote:
Everyone is titled to their opinion,
Thank you for saying this and I certainly do have MY OWN opinion concerning this matter of the good vs bad where Suboxone is concerned. And remember this is only MY opinion.
day_to_daze wrote:
However, too many people get on suboxone for very minuscule opiate use. And stay on it, then throw it in people's face that their clean.
What you fail to realize about your statement where "minuscule opiate use" is concerned is those using rather small doses of whatever opiate they happen to be taking may have been on it for YEARS and YEARS and just can't stop no matter how hard, how many different ways, and how many times they've attempted to quit. Suboxone may be the very LAST CHANCE for these people, and it certainly was the VERY LAST CHANCE for me to safe my life.

I wasn't on minuscule doses, but instead my use, or rather abuse of nearly every drug on the planet was as high as anyone's. Not boasting because it's saddens me to think of it now. But I personally know someone that had abused Vicodin for around 7 years and her dose never got above 50-60mg a day. She attempted every possible way to get clean with no positive results. She went to NA/AA groups, had a counselor, etc, etc and just could't quit. She lost everything in her life that she loved and was important to her. Finally she chose Suboxone and it made the difference. She believes she will be a "lifer" on subs as will I. No doubt about that, at least for the time being.

My point is that not EVERYONE on Suboxone needs to have what would be considered above average habits, or using "TONS" of drugs. It has to be an individual decision. Of course it's not right for everyone, but for those with "drug problems" it makes all the difference in the world to be on it. Suboxone SAVES LIVES. Period.
day_to_daze wrote:
Honestly the fact that people on this site get so defensive about "shit talking" suboxone, makes me think that a lot of them are really insecure about taking suboxone & calling themselves clean.
I'm afraid this statement may cause quite a bit of controversy. I get very defensive when someone talks bad or rubs Suboxone in the ground. Why? Because theres ZERO doubt I wouldn't be here typing this right now. I would be dead and buried for absolute certain. I tried every way and tried again and again and again to get clean and live with no luck whatsoever. I was skeptical about Suboxone and did my research. Once on it I knew I had made the best decision I've EVER made for myself.

I've been on subs for 5 years on March 8th. It allows me to live my life and not worry about a relapse which would positively happen if I were to stop. Those of us that consider ourselves CLEAN while on Suboxone have earned the right to do so in my opinion. I haven't taken another opiate in 5 years. I call that clean. Just because I'm taking a MEDICATION such as Suboxone makes little difference if anyone else considers me not clean because of it. If someone takes insulin, an antidepressant, or other medication to substain their illness I would never consider them using or not clean. I take a MEDICATION to control my DISEASE and that's how I personally feel.

Yes, you have a right to your own opinion and I respect that. But please consider the other side of it and my opinion too. People on this site do sometimes get very defensive of those bashing bupe, for good reason. But as I said it isn't for everyone and symptoms can pop up. I was recently abusing my Suboxone, but seem to be on the right track now thank God. You could say I was abusing another opiate, but I say I was abusing a medication that has saved my life.

My 2 cents anyway.

Take care...
Sub Addict


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:42 pm 
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Each person in recovery can define tbere recovery as they.see it. If the words clean and dirty mean you dont or do have recovery that is for Otners to judge. Mostly these old words come from traditional recovery methods. I see myself as in recovery, although not "drugfree. So what.
I became so caught up in this the first 3 years that in started to have a negative impact on my own personal recovery. I ,today im as recovered as anyone else. I live a life free of the monster that became my way of life. No more.
I no louger worry what anyone thinks. Happiness, Homelife, success at work and giving back to others are all in my life today. I keep it simple. Clean....dirty...more like substance abuse free. ..simple really...peace

Razor


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:50 pm 
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SunRises,

Considering you made this public then this is where I'll answer.

Suboxone bashing is not allowed. Expressing your opinion is encouraged and the mods let the members talk about whatever they like, within reason. You were warned only because of the remark of casually taking illegal drugs. It was a call I made and maybe I was too quick to react.

We have a section here called Freestyle. Its intent is for members just like yourself who disagree with the positive recovery benefits of Buprenorphine. Feel free to post your comments there if you think they may be cause for debate. We mods try our best to not interfere with that section. Within reason.

There are many threads about "getting high on Suboxone", etc. So yours isn't the first. My intention was to stop any promotion of illegal drug use on this forum. That's part of our job here.

I hope this clears things up. You are welcome to discuss whatever you want without causing an argument and turning this place into a battle zone. If you have anymore questions about this subject please use the PM feature we have so as not to take up space in the recovery sections.

Thanks,

Rule62

P.S. I now see you posted this in the Freestyle section. Thank You.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:32 pm 
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"Each person in recovery can define there [their] recovery as they.see it."

Okay this is now the second or third time I've seen this posted. I'm honestly not sure if it's been the same poster or not but I let it go the first two times but it's now strike three.

That is simply crazy!!! With a capital K! How about I define my recovery as taking my 30 day supply of oxy over the first 10 days of the month and then taking my Bup for the other 20 days before starting over again. This is better than shooting heroin, correct? As long this is how I "define" my recovery and claim it's working for me I should be able to do that? That is just batshit crazy nonsense. Recovery already has accepted definitions. We don't get to invent our own. This goes for most things in life. Do I get to define other things? If I give back the money I took from someone without their knowledge or permission can I define that as borrowing? I just don't get it. Please tell me how we have gotten to the point where we each get to define our own recovery!???

As for the topic that started this thread, I could not agree more. Sensorship is such a slippery slope and these posters are showing why. I very much support Bup and totally belive in it but if a research study comes out next week linking it to cancer are we really not supposed to discuss it? If I define my recovery as smoking a joint every night to calm myself or some other nonsense am I not supposed to post I'm doing that and are others here not supposed to challange and hopefully help me change that?

It was sensorsjip that drove me away, in part, three years ago. I really hope we're not headed back there. I totally get this is only an Internet board but Russia became Russia because if things like this. Debate and differing opinions are very healthy. Bashing someone or something is completly different.thats what moderators should protect us against - we don't need protection from differing opinions - even if those opinions, gasp, cause an, don't say it, an argument. The humanity!

Deciding which books to burn is never a good thing. Our founding forefathers were smart enough to figure this out. Why is it we think we know better? The line never stays in one place. What starts out as "protection" from Bup bashing turns into stifling differing opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:46 pm 
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Hi Sun,

Calling myself totally clean is a tricky statement. I do take Suboxone and I am free of all alcohol , cigs, weed other drugs etc. I consider myself basically " As Good as it is gonna get to Sober" haha.

Here is the thing, I was on Suboxone 2 times. The main reason why I tried to get off of Subs the first time was the fact that I was "Shamed" off of them by people who told me i was NOT CLEAN on them.

So I tapered off and I was off Subxone for the first time . " I showed those people "lol Only ...I relapsed worse than ever, could've died trying to prove to those people that I was clean.

So now I am on Suboxone a 2nd time, and I try to not let what other's say bother me so much. I am living a as close to drug free life as possible thanks to Subs.

Opinions here are welcome, however can get tricky when there is a guilt about taking suboxone floating around and the pressure of feeling shameful for taking such a life saving med.

We all need as much support as possible to fight this beast of an addiction. !!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:56 pm 
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There nothing crazy about it . Ive done the meetings, ive gone though all of the trad recovery. Im on suboxone. In the lower doses. I have recovery. That is where im at and others on bupe. I take no other substances. And i not not drink alcohol. Bupe only. Over four years of it.
My post was about the terms " clean and dirty" thats all. Illl define My recovery as I will. Changes are being made in the recovery world. The labels and words that hurt people of recovery ane also changing. That's all this was. What ever anyone wants to call there recovery is up to them. Substance use and abuse free.
Sorry that doesn't swim for ya...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:33 pm 
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If you are saying, or trying to say, "whatever you have to do to successfully remain out of active addiction and drug abuse free is your recovery" I totally agree with you. No argument. But that's not what you are saying and words matter. Your direct quote/words are people in recovery get to define their recovery as they see it. So I again ask you if I smoke a joint once a night do I get to define that as my recovery. I'd love to hear your answer along with why or why not. And if not, they I really can't define my own re overly but rather fit within the accepted parameters of recovery. Or am I just missing something!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:59 pm 
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The bottom line here is that this forum should be a place that encourages others to strive for recovery from active addiction. And, we should never make anyone feel that their recovery with suboxone is in any way less than someone's recovery without it. That's it. If a member here feels they are in some way not "clean" while they are taking suboxone...that's fine. Just don't come here and try to make others line up with your beliefs. There is a whole world out there that agrees with you, and we all have to live in it. This forum is a little bit of sanctuary for those of us who don't want to be defined by that small box. We don't require that you agree, we only ask that you respect our choice and don't debate it.

I take it pretty personally when there is talk about being overly censored on this forum. I see things here all the time that I don't agree with. I probably will put my opinions in the mix, but I don't get too upset if someone doesn't agree with me. I just move on and usually don't post on that particular thread again. All of the moderators here are just regular people like you guys, and we all have different strengths and weaknesses. We may not be perfect, but we act out of a sense of protection for our members and this forum. If there is something that bothers any of you about the way a situation is handled then as a member you should PM any one of the moderators and address it.

Do you all really want to wade through a bunch of sub-bashing posts before you get to the information that is actually helpful to your recovery? We have never tried to censor real information about the pitfalls and hardships of suboxone treatment. There are legitimate issues and some bad things that are involved with it, and we talk about it all the time. Do I need to post links to some of those threads to remind you?

The OP of this thread didn't initially do anything that would be considered sub-bashing. I think that was a miscommunication that could have been cleared up with a personal PM.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:50 pm 
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We do not censor negative posts about bupe products, IF you are talking about your own experiences with sub and IF you are not making outrageous statements about sub which can't be substantiated.

I'll let you in on a little secret about the moderators here. We all have our little pet peeves! For example, Rule62 gets a little bit feisty if a member starts encouraging (or appears to encourage) other members to get on a street drug. This is why Q and I read right through your post and we didn't bat an eyelash, but Rule picked up on it.

One of our concerns when people come here with any kind of chip on their shoulder or venting off steam, that someone brand new will see it and decide not to try a bupe product because of another person's opinion of bupe. AND, there are so many forums that are filled with people who hate sub and talk nonsense, such as subsux dot com. We strive to be a forum that presents an accurate, though positive view of suboxone.

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:09 am 
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Thank You Amy, well said.

Who ever got the idea of censorship here must have been daydreaming about another site.

SunRises, you didn't directly bash Suboxone so I was wrong on that one. I took offense to the not feeling clean statement. Suboxone is drug replacement therapy and some do get a slight buzz from it. That's a far cry from saying a person is not clean. (no, you didn't say that)

Why don't we get back to discussing recovery subjects and let this one fade away.

You have heard enough out of me.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:31 am 
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My 2 cents-I made a life saving decision when i went on suboxone. Did i know it was a strong opiate, yep. But i knew i was going to OD soon, and since i couldn't taper down or CT I had 2 choices left to live..Methadone or Suboxone. Sub was my choice because it was a "home based" treatment.

Do i think it's gonna suck when/if i want to get off....maybe. I have heard of people tapering low enough that life didn't suck for 2 years. My addiction counselor shared (within reason, no name etc) the timeline & outcome of a client my age who tapered off sub with his guidance. The guy is alive and well and no relapse (he is working a strong recovery program).

Suboxone saved my son's life-IV heroin user, several OD's. He is still on and doing Great.

I don't want to debate my choice. I want to come to this forum and talk to people who are in recovery and learn what works and doesn't work for them. When/if i want to get off, i will go to the stopping suboxone thread here.

Years ago when i tried to quit oxy i was on another forum that did censor..to the point where they removed posts or parts of a post because they didn't agree. That is censorship. Receiving a PM (PRIVATE message) is not censorship.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:28 pm 
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The moderators here are always here to help and honestly I rely on them to keep ppl out of here that wants to only talk negatively about sub. Sub saved my life like almost everyone else here. We are here on the PRO bupe sight because our positives out weigh the negatives. Do we know that there are ppl who need help with it sometimes and don't always feel the positive effects....sure. But there is a way to ask and deliver that info that doesn't involve "sh*t talkin". And I don't believe anyone here does that. What I do consider sh*t talk is that comment......about being insecure with thinking we truly are clean (can't remember the exact wording and could care less about pasting it). I'm not insecure. After 3 yrs on sub, I have the personal right to call myself clean if I want to and as long as nobody comes along trying to say I'm wrong to do that, there will be no problems. I'm sick of judgement, I'm sick of ppl telling me I'm wrong to think that....it dang sure isn't insecurity... far from it. And I don't expect others to call themselves clean on subs if they feel they aren't. I truly understand that I promise. Just don't speak for everyone or judge the one's that do and we will all be Ok. This shouldn't be a debate but rather a personal choice. And I hate that I'm being called insecure for that. Nobody wants to hear sub being talked about in a bashing manor. There's other ways to do it and receive positive support in doing it that way. If I receive a PM from someone, I'm not gonna take it to the entire forum to try to "expose" someone or come on here and call others insecure for getting upset about sub being bashed. It helps me to help others no matter what issues they have with sub. Instead of bashing or sh*t talking, let's just trust the moderators know what they're doing and stop judging others and talk about real issues.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:23 am 
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I really appreciate everyone's comments. I haven't checked the site in a week or so just because I had sort of a bad taste left in my mouth from my previous interaction but that is totally gone now. I see all the different points the mods made on this thread and agree with them. I really don't want to discourage anyone from getting on bupe if it can save them from something much worse, I just wanted to make sure we can have an honest, open discourse on here. I don't have a chip on my shoulder or an agenda, I just have good and bad issues to share regarding my experience with subs. My personal opinion is different from someone else's, so it's all good and I love hearing what everyone else has to say. Whatever works for YOU is what you should strive for. Of course, an HONEST self assessment is necessary for that to work.

My own situation is that I would love to be off subs (as I was for many years and was happy that way) but honestly cannot take another round of withdrawals for 2-3 months right now.
In the mean time I have been trying everything to look healthy and keep my weight up, with moderate success. I hate the way subs make me look: skinny and a bit unhealthy, but that is just how they personally affect my body.. some others are less noticeably affected by them. But no matter what I do (regular gym routine, eating a lot, not smoking, eating my veggies and other healthy foods, enough sleep) as soon as I'm on subs I drop weight and don't look as vibrant and healthy.. Even my parents and friends notice so I know it's not in my head.

That's why I came to this site, seeking advice from others on ways to look healthier while maintaining a low dose of bupe. (I have a couple posts in the Side Effects section about this).
So I wanted to know that I could honestly talk about the negative effects bupe has on me. But all the comments above are coming from a place of love and respect, and safety for this community, so again, thanks for all the input and opinions.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:38 am 
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Sun

Glad you came back to read our posts. We are generally a good group of people. I like the way you directly asked the question. IMO that is the mature way of handing things. I wish more people did that :D


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