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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:22 pm 
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This is quite a personal question, and could potentially ruffle some feathers so thought it'd be best to put it in here.

Do you consider yourself clean while on Suboxone?

I think for me it's a difficult question. Personally I don't think I am 100% clean. If I had to conceptualise it, I'd probably put myself half-way between clean and addiction. Mainly because I know how difficult it is to stay clean without a crutch like Suboxone and how much more work has to go into one's recovery when off all opioids, I do feel like the relative lack of effort makes me feel like I'm only working half-a-recovery? If that makes any sense?

Also there's the fact that Suboxone is an opioid, and quite a potent one at that. It just happens that we're sitting on a tolerance level where it has lost its "stoning" effect. And the fact that I've felt a lot different in myself, and more like "myself" in the periods I've spent on no opioids at all.

Reason I bring it up is that my girl and I had a photo taken of us lastnight on a webcam a few minutes after I'd had my Suboxone. And well, I looked pinned. Kinda unnerving for me to see as a reminder that I'm still under the influence of opioids.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:47 pm 
I'll make it simple. From my position I was not clean on suboxone. I'll tell you why.... I needed to take it everyday even though i wish i didnt have to. Also, Suboxone was being abused in my case (some days i would double up the dose if i had a bad day) just as i would act if i was snorting some oxy's. Its the same concept except one is put out there w/ "miricle" connotations. Suboxone is a tool that gets you on your way to being clean.(just an opinion) And really, a great tool at that. Learn to live again and break addictive behaviors and routines. You are not going to bad parts of the cities anymore dealing with shady people but you still need to put that pill in your mouth day in and day out. Although, you are doing it for a damn good reason. It is still an issue of dependency. I would never critisize anyone for wanting to take it for life or even get in an arguement with them that they are not clean being on suboxone. Just my stance on it. And frankly, they shouldnt even care what i think about the subject. All that matters is that they are clean off the hard stuff and they are happy and being productive members of society now that they are taking Suboxone. So, i give them all the credit in the world, but are they 100% clean?

And lets keep our shirts on everyone, its just an opinion... I still support people that disagree with me and wanna act all snoody. Hey, as long as your happy......I honestly don't care if you disagree with me, I'm just answerin the TEEJAYS question..


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:16 pm 
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I didn't really think of myself as "clean" when I was on Suboxone but I also don't think I was any less "in recovery" than I am now. I guess I was abstaining from abusing drugs and using my medication properly and that was good enough for me.

I hate the whole "clean" thing anyway. I understand why clean time is important to so many recovering addicts and I understand the importance of abstaining from whatever you're trying to break an addiction from...but I also hate to see people get so hung up on being clean, how many days/weeks/months they have clean, etc., that when they slip up they feel that they've lost so much that the lapse becomes a relapse. But maybe that's another topic!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:01 am 
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I don't know whether I was clean or not while on Suboxone and I really don't give a hoot. All I know is that I wasn't out rippin' and runnin', chasing down pills, blowing all my frickin' money and all the other wonderful things I used to do.

And, I'd take pinned eyes over all that other crap I used to do, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Being 100% clean is almost a pipe dream. I still smoke, I still drink coffee (caffeine), I take supplements before my workout that hype me up like nobody's business.....if being clean means abstaining from all kinds of drugs, then call me dirty!!!

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Last edited by Romeo on Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:02 am 
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I for one, consider myself 'clean' even though I take suboxone, daily.

I know, its a matter of personal opinion, BUT,
you know I used drugs for most of my adult life. I did things I wont even talk about , its not even worth going into detail, but things that I will always never forgive myself for, while 'hunting' for money, to get drugs.

that said, when I first started sub therapy, I was paying out of pocket, almost ten bucks a strip, and I was the only one working in my family, making 12 bucks an hour. I DIDNT always have money for my suboxone.
what did I do???
I sucked it up, and made it. I worked, I may have been a lil more 'grumpy' than usual, but I was not robbing my grandmother's jewlery box, to go get my perscription.

thats a pretty 'cut and dry' reason for ME.
I dont really take 'offense' to what anybody else thinks, so dont worry about that.
Suboxone, doesnt 'do it' for me. even 'early' in my treatment, I did take more than I was soposed to, and it did nothing for me. Just made me feel guilty.

the person I was two years ago, and the person I am today, dont have ANYTHING in common. nothing I can think of, except maybe the same hair color?? no, Im going gray, so thats different too.

If suboxone made me 'feel' anything but not suicidal cuz I dont have opiates, then maybe Id feel differently on the subject.
I know I could live without it, I just LIVE BETTER, with it. and Im totally at peace with that.

I tell people Im clean, I dont explain Im on suboxone, unless I think they'll have some comprehension of it.
I feel clean, I realy do.

I dont think I look 'different' than other people in photographs, (I have nice teeth now :D ) I dont dwell on my suboxone, Im more active in every aspect of life, then I ever have been, at least since I was a teenager anyways.

My favorite t-shirt is bright yellow and the front of it reads...............

SOBER & BADASS

and I believe that I am :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:38 am 
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I feel clean. I never get high on sub, I never misuse my sub. To me, it feels like just another daily medication, like my birth control pill and omeprazole for heartburn.

There's a possibility that I will feel "cleaner" after I've tapered off sub. I might look back on my time on sub and see a huge difference from being off all opiates. I think what makes me feel clean now is that my behavior is completely changed from when I was on my drug of choice.

I have no problem dealing with other peoples' opinion that they were not clean while on sub. But you better not tell me I'm not clean because I'm on sub. Keep your opinion on your own recovery, not on mine! (BTW, I'm not implying that anyone on this thread has done that!)

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:57 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]I have no doubt in my mind that I am as clean as a whistle on suboxone! And for all the reasons that have already been explained.

I am a better mother, daughter, sister, and all around person. Suboxone has helped me to rid myself of the selfish, manipulative,lying,cheating person I was becoming. As Amy has already said, I just don't view sub any different than any other medication that needs to be taken on a daily basis to save ones life. Noone would tell me I wasn't clean if I was shooting insulin into me everyday. If I didn't take my sub everyday, this disease would kill me just as surely as diabetes would if I didn't take my insulin.

On the flip side to this, one day I may not need sub anymore, and I am completely open to that. I may also feel completely different when and if I do stop taking sub. That is fine too. I may even feel like my time spent on sub was "foggy" (for lack of a better term). But for now I am not going to worry about that. There is no point.

I think that every addict and individual needs to do the best thing for their own recovery and their own life. I would support them no matter what the choice. [/font]

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:21 pm 
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In my opinion I consider myself clean because I am not abusing the suboxone. I'm just taking a daily prescribed drug that effects parts of my brain. My antidepressant does the same thing.

Am I dependent on suboxone? Yes. I also am on my antidepressant (it has to be tapered off also).

Dr. Junig has a greatb video and blog post about dependency vs addiction.

I am not abusing any drugs and taking all as prescribed. In consider myself clean.

To each thieir own, only you know what you do behind closed doors.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:06 am 
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This has always been a big question mark when it comes to this for me. I use to answere this by sayin no I'm not clean. But now on methadone no longer in pain, add on top of all the accomplishments I have made this past year. I'm 100% clean in my eyes and that's all that truly matters at the end of the day what I feel in my heart.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Im not gonna lie to myself I'm am definitely not clean on Suboxone..

Sub is a very powerful OPIOD.. period.. Yes a lot of the addictive behaviors are gone when stabilized on maintenance but the fact is i am still physically/psychologically addicted to opiates... I must take an opiate everyday to function and feel normal..

Also with sub the blood levels can remain pretty even and it feels "normal" to be in that state.. but i know for me that state is far from "normal"

Actually to me how i feel on sub maintenance compared to being totally "sober" is a completely different world its scary... Sub definitely dampens my emotions and puts me in a "fog"...

With all this being said though I think this medication is a Godsend for people to live a relatively "normal" life who were hardcore addicts and tried everything to quit..

Sub maintenance should not be taken 90% of cases and I believe only be used when all other methods have failed miserably; It is not to be taken lightly.. Sub really should be primarily used a short term detox tool.

Yes i know I'm not 100% clean but do i feel bad or guilty about taking my sub every day?

Hell no because Sub is saving my life.. Without sub I would be dead for sure by now;

I just gotta be honest with myself and stop beating me up for taking a medication that giving me life


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 Post subject: NA, Shmenay.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:08 pm 
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There are plenty of people in recovery; many of them long term recovery, which have legitimate need for mood altering chemicals. If a recovering opioid addict of 30 years is diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and is given Methadone and Dilaudid for the remainder of their life to treat the pain does that mean that they have relapsed and are no longer ‘clean?’ Typically in a situation such as that, a Hospice nurse or family member will be doling out the medications so there’s only small room for abuse, if any - but it is essentially a similar setup for the first few months one is in a Methadone maintenance Program. NA has an official stance on the use of opioid replacement therapies (methadone and buprenorphine) saying that they are not in line with NA’s belief system and that group members on these therapies should not share at meetings or participate in any way, but the same pamphlet ends by saying that this is not to say that an NA member suffering from pain cannot use Methadone, Buprenorphine or any other mood altering medications to treat pain so long as they are prescribed legitimately because, as NA so often likes to say, “we are not doctors.” I don’t know anyone who has directly died of pain alone, but I know many, many, many who have died from various complications related to opioid dependence and even opioid abuse, so for NA to demonize replacements for recovering opioid addicts is ludicrous, I believe. You folks are not Dr’s....Really?! Why, then, do you guys and gals with zero clinical experience find it prudent to try to talk other “brothers and sisters” out of the use of other life saving medications? I never heard a ‘sponsor’ tell his/her ‘sponsee’ to taper off their high blood pressure medication as quickly as possible so they can really hear the NA ‘message’ without being bogged down by drugs; When their blood pressure does rise, they are not encouraged to simply meet with their sponsor, use the 'call list,' do regular ‘step work’ and ‘pray on it’ if in in the midst of a heart attack.

Sorry! Wow...I sure got ranty.....What was the question?!?!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:54 pm 
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It all boils down to what the individual defines clean as. Some people define "clean" as not using their drug of choice, I don't agree with that analysis. If someone gets off heroin and starts taking 120mg of methadone a day they are no longer taking their drug of choice but they are still completely wasted all day, however they would be "clean" if you look at it that way.

I define "clean" as not taking any mind altering drugs. Your brain simply cannot learn to adapt without opiates until you stop putting opiates in it. This is a simple concept.

I am the first to admit that a life on bupe is preferable to a life on illicit opiates such as heroin. Suboxone is definitely a method of harm-reduction. Reducing harm to oneself is a good thing but it is not the same as sobriety.

The word sober has a concrete definition; not being affected by alcohol or drugs. If you are taking drugs you are not sober unless you want to completely redefine the word. It baffles me when I see people who are dependent on an opiate (half agonist or full agonist) calling themselves sober. Sober people do not go into withdrawals when they stop taking their medication.

With all that said, I completely support anyone who decides to use Suboxone to stay off other drugs. If it improves your quality of life and the benefits outweigh the negatives than good for you!

I have a deep love of science and the scientific method and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to equate the ingestion of powerful opiates with a life of sobriety.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:42 pm 
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alakazam wrote:
It all boils down to what the individual defines clean as. Some people define "clean" as not using their drug of choice, I don't agree with that analysis. If someone gets off heroin and starts taking 120mg of methadone a day they are no longer taking their drug of choice but they are still completely wasted all day, however they would be "clean" if you look at it that way.

I define "clean" as not taking any mind altering drugs. Your brain simply cannot learn to adapt without opiates until you stop putting opiates in it. This is a simple concept.

I am the first to admit that a life on bupe is preferable to a life on illicit opiates such as heroin. Suboxone is definitely a method of harm-reduction. Reducing harm to oneself is a good thing but it is not the same as sobriety.

The word sober has a concrete definition; not being affected by alcohol or drugs. If you are taking drugs you are not sober unless you want to completely redefine the word. It baffles me when I see people who are dependent on an opiate (half agonist or full agonist) calling themselves sober. Sober people do not go into withdrawals when they stop taking their medication.

With all that said, I completely support anyone who decides to use Suboxone to stay off other drugs. If it improves your quality of life and the benefits outweigh the negatives than good for you!

I have a deep love of science and the scientific method and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to equate the ingestion of powerful opiates with a life of sobriety.



Im not quoting your post to argue the topic at hand. I just wanted to clarify something, you said a person on 120mgs of methadone is wasted all day that is far from true. I'm on 170mgs of methadone a day and I function like any other person. If you meet me you would not know I took a dose of methadone unless I told you. I just wanted to say that because I'm sick of people thinking all methadone patients are getting high on there maintenance dose. The people you see on methadone nodding out looking high as hell are abusing benzos. Its a known fact in the methadone community that methadone and benzos produce a better high than china white aka heroin and benzos.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:54 pm 
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[quote=

The word sober has a concrete definition; not being affected by alcohol or drugs. If you are taking drugs you are not sober unless you want to completely redefine the word. It baffles me when I see people who are dependent on an opiate (half agonist or full agonist) calling themselves sober. Sober people do not go into withdrawals when they stop taking their medication.

I have a deep love of science and the scientific method and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to equate the ingestion of powerful opiates with a life of sobriety.[/quote]

So by your standard anyone on an antidepressant isn't sober? I'm just asking, cause some of these are a real BITCH to get off and WILL cause severe withdrawals if stopped abruptly.

As far as your respect for science, I think that's good & science is definitely something worthy of our respect. But let's not forget, it was science that told us how good margarine was for us (among other things) & we know how that worked out for us. Nothing's perfect, not even scientific findings.

Edit: what did I do wrong with my quotes? Lol. You get the idea.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:09 pm 
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alakazam - You said "It all boils down to what the individual defines 'clean' as", but then you go on to say 'sober' has a concrete definition. Well, it does. According to Mirrium-Webster the word sobriety means that a person is neither intoxicated at the moment, and/or addicted to any drugs/alcohol. Suboxone may have prevented me from getting sick, but at no time in the approximately one year time period that I was prescribed the medication was I ever intoxicated. Nor did I exhibit any behavior that would indicate anything other than a dependecy. An individual who takes their buprenorphine in a responsible manner as prescribed by their physician is 'NOT' addicted to the medication, they are dependent.

Congrats on being drug free!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:03 pm 
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No need to congratulate me on being drug free, because I am not. :)

Quote:
Suboxone may have prevented me from getting sick, but at no time in the approximately one year time period that I was prescribed the medication was I ever intoxicated.


We are running around in circles. The only difference is now we are focusing on the definition of intoxicated. I admit I was not correct when I said their is a solid definition of sobriety. I am very curious to know what definition of sober allows for the intake of mind altering drugs however.

If a person was so used to taking heroin everyday that they got used to it's effects and didn't take it to get "high" but only to feel "normal" does that mean I would be sober? If they only use enough heroin to prevent being sick than they would never feel "intoxicated" and then they would be sober? It seems a strange argument to me.


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An individual who takes their buprenorphine in a responsible manner as prescribed by their physician is 'NOT' addicted to the medication, they are dependent.


I didn't say anything about addiction/dependance and that is a whole different can of worms. I am talking about sober and not sober. How can a person be sober if they are also dependent on opiates? Doesn't that seem a bit absurd?


Last edited by alakazam on Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:07 pm 
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So by your standard anyone on an antidepressant isn't sober? I'm just asking, cause some of these are a real BITCH to get off and WILL cause severe withdrawals if stopped abruptly.


That is correct. I fail to see how someone can take a mind altering drug and still consider themselves sober. What definition of sobriety allows for that?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:53 pm 
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We are not running around in circles at all. I am standing quite still. You said "I admit I was not correct when I said there was a solid definition of sobriety." If by solid, you mean a formally recognized definition of the word, then you were in fact right the first time. But you know that already because you just read what Mirrium-Webster had to say on the matter. You also said, "I didn't say anything about addiction or dependence and that is a different can of worms. I am talking about sobor and not sober. How can a person be sober if they are also dependent on opiates? Doesn't that seem absurd?" A person who is dependent on a medication and takes it as directed and exhibits no destructive drug seeking behaviors is sober. That is the definition, but again, you know that. It does seem absurd that you want to rewrite the dictionary to suite your needs, but I think you realize that too.


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We are not running around in circles at all. I am standing quite still. You said "I admit I was not correct when I said there was a solid definition of sobriety." If by solid, you mean a formally recognized definition of the word, then you were in fact right the first time. But you know that already because you just read what Mirrium-Webster had to say on the matter.


When I search Google for the definition of sobriety I get this:

so·ber/ˈsōbər/
Adjective:

Not affected by alcohol; not drunk.
Verb:
Make or become sober after drinking alcohol: "that coffee sobered him up.".
Synonyms:
staid - sedate - abstinent - sober-minded - moderate

Webster is not the end-all-be-all definition of a word. Google lists abstinent as a synonym. We all know what abstinence means don't we? We can find many different dictionaries with a multitude of definitions and you know this to be true. I stand by my statement there is no solid, or 100% agreed upon, definition of the word.


Quote:
You also said, "I didn't say anything about addiction or dependence and that is a different can of worms. I am talking about sobor and not sober. How can a person be sober if they are also dependent on opiates? Doesn't that seem absurd?" A person who is dependent on a medication and takes it as directed and exhibits no destructive drug seeking behaviors is sober.


Ridiculous. If my doctor prescribed me methamphetamine or fentanyl and I take it as prescribed with no drug seeking behavior I'm sober? I have never seen a single definition of the word sober from any source that said anything about a prescription.

Quote:
That is the definition, but again, you know that. It does seem absurd that you want to rewrite the dictionary to suite your needs, but I think you realize that too.


You live in a world where a doctors prescription has any relevance to sobriety and *I* am the one rewriting the dictionary?

Quote:
Suboxone may have prevented me from getting sick, but at no time in the approximately one year time period that I was prescribed the medication was I ever intoxicated.


Let us be clear; When you are under the effect of the medicine you are in fact intoxicated by it. When you point out you never felt sick that is *because* you are intoxicated.


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Funny, I just went tWebster and looked up sober @ http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sober

This is what it says:

1
a : sparing in the use of food and drink : abstemious b : not addicted to intoxicating drink c : not drunk
2
: marked by sedate or gravely or earnestly thoughtful character or demeanor
3
: unhurried, calm
4
: marked by temperance, moderation, or seriousness <a>
5
: subdued in tone or color
6
: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice

Webster defines sober as not addicted to an intoxicating drink. Since you claimed that Webster is the only real definition it turns out you are right! You can smoke crack and shoot heroin and be sober. You just can't be addicted to drink.

If you haven't yet seen absurdity in all of this feel free to comment back and we can keep trying.


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