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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:28 pm 
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My God man! Didn't you take debate in school? Your arguments are specious - they have no merit, no substance. Websters may not be the end-all be-all, but it's better than the dictionary by alakazam (or hessler, or winningpathetic, or etc.). You also said "Let us be clear; When you are under the effect of the medication you are in fact intoxicated by it. When you point out you never felt sick that is *because* you are intoxicated." Wrong again subsux breath. When you are taking buprenorphine it actually works as a suppliment to make up for the naturally occuring opiods that your brain no longer produces due to atrophy and other changes that occur during opiate addiction. Didn't you mention that you were a big proponent of the scientitic method? If so, then you have a lot of good reading to catch up on regarding the physiological changes that occur in the brain. An informed mind is a better mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:36 pm 
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bronzebeta wrote:
My God man! Didn't you take debate in school? Your arguments are specious - they have no merit, no substance. Websters may not be the end-all be-all, but it's better than the dictionary by alakazam (or hessler, or winningpathetic, or etc.). You also said "Let us be clear; When you are under the effect of the medication you are in fact intoxicated by it. When you point out you never felt sick that is *because* you are intoxicated." Wrong again subsux breath. When you are taking buprenorphine it actually works as a suppliment to make up for the naturally occuring opiods that your brain no longer produces due to atrophy and other changes that occur during opiate addiction. Didn't you mention that you were a big proponent of the scientitic method? If so, then you have a lot of good reading to catch up on regarding the physiological changes that occur in the brain. An informed mind is a better mind.


Why are you so angry and eager to attack people? You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. As far as the name calling (subsux breath?) I am actually on suboxone and I know perfectly well how it works in the body. I am a suboxone proponent as well so you can start untying that knot you have in your panties at any time. Have you ever looked into yoga or meditation? There is much to be gained from such practices.

You are once again arguing the semantics of the word "intoxication" and we are still running around in this same circle.

Opinions are like assholes, and we all got one. There is no need to work yourself up so much man.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:14 pm 
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I'm not eager to attack anyone who sincerely wants factual information. In my last post, I tried once again to explain the difference between sobriety and addiction to you. I gave you an example of a person who takes their medication as prescibed and does not seek intoxication - this is an individual who is dependent but not addicted and thus sober. You dismissed what I had to say without seriously addressing any of the specific points that I made, and also commented that the idea was 'absurd'. Sounds like you were the one that got a little hot under the collar there buddy. Like they say, if you can't stand the heat. One more thing, just because you say something is true, does not make it so. There seem to be quite a few 'experts' around here lately that don't have a very good grasp of science or addiction and how it affects the human brain.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:05 pm 
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bronzebeta wrote:
I'm not eager to attack anyone who sincerely wants factual information. In my last post, I tried once again to explain the difference between sobriety and addiction to you. I gave you an example of a person who takes their medication as prescibed and does not seek intoxication - this is an individual who is dependent but not addicted and thus sober.


So your argument is as long as you are not in active addiction and you have a prescription that is all it takes to be sober?

So if a person uses Oxycontin every day and they are physically dependent but don't abuse it are they sober too?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Here's a little reading for you guys, from the Betty Ford Institute Consensus Panel in the Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment #33

Quote:
2.1. Sobriety

Sobriety refers to abstinence from alcohol and all other
nonprescribed drugs.


The article is titled "What is Recovery? A Working Definition from the Betty Ford Institute Consensus Panel." Here is their agreed upon, operational definition of recovery:

Quote:
Recovery from substance dependence is a voluntarily
maintained lifestyle characterized by sobriety, personal
health, and citizenship.


So that's good enough for me anyway. It's a good article, here's the link if you want to read it:

http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org ... _Panel.pdf

Here's a list of the members of the consensus panel:

Carlton K. Erickson, Ph.D.
Director, Addiction Science Research and Education
Center, University of Texas
Michael T. Flaherty, Ph.D.
Executive Director, Institute for Research, Education, and
Treatment of Addiction
Marc Galanter, M.D.
Professor of Psychiatry and Director, Division of
Alcoholism and Drug Abuse, New York University
Mark Gold, M.D.
Distinguished Professor and Chief, McKnight Brain
Institute, University of Florida
Lee Ann Kaskutas, Dr.P.H.
Alcohol Research Group, University of California at
Berkeley
Alexandre Laudet, Ph.D.
Director, Center of Study of Addictions and Recovery,
National Development and Research Institutes
Carol McDaid
Principal, Capitol Decisions Consulting Group
A. Thomas McLellan, Ph.D.
CEO, Treatment Research Institute
Jon Morgenstern, Ph.D.
Vice President for Research, National Center on Substance
Abuse and Addiction at Columbia University
Eugene Rubin, M.D., Ph.D.
Department of Psychiatry, School of Medicine, Washington
University in St. Louis
John Schwarzlose, M.S.
CEO, Betty Ford Center
William White, M.A.
Senior Research Consultant, Chestnut Health Systems

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Before you edited your post, you gave an example of someone who is prescribed Methamphetamine and Fentanyl as opposed to Oxycontin, but for the sake of this discussion, oxy and fent are interchangagle, so I'll just leave my original post intact.

I did see your response - it wasn't pertinent. Obviously, any opiod naive patent who is prescriged Fentanyl for a painful injury will more than likely experience some intoxication and impairment (which would mean at that time they were taking the medication they were not sober... can't drive a car or operate heavy machinery - remember the accepted definition of sobriety by MW). Moderate amounts or Desoxyn prescriged for ADHD and obeisity can cause intoxication, but no impairment. On the contrary, it would probably give you quite an edge in sporting events and that's why it's a banned substance.

Back on track - our discussion concerns whether or not a person is sober if they are prescribed Suboxone and take it as directed to suppliment their brains opiod levels. To recap, according to the standard definition, a patient with substance abuse issues who takes their Suboxone as prescibed is dependent but not addicted to Suboxone and is sober (do yourself a favor and look up the difference between addiction and dependence).

Well, it's been fun, but I think it's time for a little guitar before Breaking Bad (Walt has lost any semblance of humanity and it can't possibly end well)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:58 pm 
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alakazam wrote:
bronzebeta wrote:
I'm not eager to attack anyone who sincerely wants factual information. In my last post, I tried once again to explain the difference between sobriety and addiction to you. I gave you an example of a person who takes their medication as prescibed and does not seek intoxication - this is an individual who is dependent but not addicted and thus sober.


So your argument is as long as you are not in active addiction and you have a prescription that is all it takes to be sober?

So if a person uses Oxycontin every day and they are physically dependent but don't abuse it are they sober too?


I kinda think they are sober! If they're not abusing the drug, and not taking it with a desire to get high, then they are clean.

There are MANY people in the rooms of NA and AA who have operations and require pain management, and they hold onto their clean time. They just make sure that they're 100% honest and take it as prescribed, no more. And they only take what they need, even if they're prescribed more than they need.

However on the other hand, I think the whole "we're dependent, not addicted" idea needs scrutiny.

1) For decades people who were prescribed methadone were considered addicted to methadone. No doctor I know bothered to make this "discrepancy". There was no denial about it. Even when Subutex was prescribed in my country (Australia) years before bupe was used in America, there was none of this concept of patients being dependent and not addicted. It wasn't until RB started pushing Suboxone in America, and the doctors started doing their paid seminars, that this idea of Suboxone patients being dependent and not addicted came about. It kinda makes sense in a way given that patients on Sub don't fill the DSM-IV criteria for addiction, BUT it still doesn't change the fact that this argument was originally pushed by RB to better sell the Sub idea.

I agreed with it, until late last year when I ran out of Suboxone and couldn't see my doctor over the Christmas period. I went fucking nuts. I tried the emergency room, tried to call using friends and dealers... I was freaking out. Freaking out even worse than in active addiction when I couldn't afford a hit. It was then I realised that the only reason I didn't think myself addicted was because Sub was so available, and I was never out of supply. How is this different to a person receiving legal heroin and goes to a clinic twice a day to have a hit. They have no reason to freak out and thieve and obsess, because they know their drugs are available when they need them. They don't fill the criteria of addiction in the DSM-IV. We are no different.

It's because of this I feel we're in a pseudo-addicted state. We're just comfortable and secure because our drugs are pretty much always available. Take away that security, and we freak out just like an addict who can't score, or even worse because (like for me) that situation really smashes the security we have on Sub. Ever since I've realised how fragile I am while on Sub, and how easily I can be confronted with my addiction to Sub when the supply is taken from me.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:25 pm 
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TeeJay - If my Suboxone script had been cut off shortly after I started treatment, there's no question in my mind that I would have taken any opiate I could possibly get my hands on in order to prevent myself from getting sick. The clinic that I went to was really pretty shady and the staff were unprofessional, but they were the only game in town. Because I always feared that they'd be shut down for a variety of different reasons, when I finally did taper and jump it was a great relief knowing that I didn't have to rely on them anymore.

Take care,
Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:27 pm 
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alakazam wrote:
Funny, I just went tWebster and looked up sober @ http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sober

This is what it says:

1
a : sparing in the use of food and drink : abstemious b : not addicted to intoxicating drink c : not drunk
2
: marked by sedate or gravely or earnestly thoughtful character or demeanor
3
: unhurried, calm
4
: marked by temperance, moderation, or seriousness <a>
5
: subdued in tone or color
6
: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice

Webster defines sober as not addicted to an intoxicating drink. Since you claimed that Webster is the only real definition it turns out you are right! You can smoke crack and shoot heroin and be sober. You just can't be addicted to drink.

If you haven't yet seen absurdity in all of this feel free to comment back and we can keep trying.


In the SIX different definitions of the word "sober" you are only focusing on the ONE (1. b actually) that seems to back up your assertions. The other 5 definitions are focused on behavior and demeanor. Are you simply going to ignore those? If I can't call the extreme difference in behavior and demeanor of me in active addiction, and me taking suboxone as it's prescribed as being sober, then what do you suggest I call it? Because according to the definitions above, sober is exactly what I am.

I don't know if your inflexibility of thought has to do with total alignment of thought with NA or AA, or whether you just tend to be a black or white thinker, but your definition of sober (especially with the inclusion of anti-depressants, et al) does a disservice to many of those with chemical imbalances and mental health issues. You, apparently, would tell my 70 year old mother, who after years of abuse by her father, takes Wellbutrin to help with her deal with depression, that she is not sober. That belief system seems out of the norm to me. If you asked 100 people on the street if my mother, who barely had a drink in her life and never used medication stronger than ibuprofen, whether she is sober or not, they would all say she is sober. It's the AA/NA ideal that is out of whack, not those of us who can see there are shades of grey.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:48 pm 
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GREAT post amy,
sorta 'my thoughts exactly' LOL

I consider myself sober as well, or clean, whatever you want to call it. I already posted a half dozen reasons.

although, I could care less what anybody else thinks. you know the truth of the matter is,
someone already said it somewhere in this thread, I think it was Bboy.,,,,,
,
ONLY YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN NOBODY ELSE IS LOOKING

and I whole heartedly agree with that. Only each one of us knows too, if we are indeed 'abusing' the medication. although, in MY opinion suboxone cant really be abused, unless you only take it on occasion or something?? I dont know, I never felt anything that I would 'chase' ever, on it.


Anyways, it REALLY is up to each different individual whether YOU think you are 'clean' 'sober' or half stoned on suboxone.

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hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:07 pm 
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I hate it when I post something and it ends up on the bottom of the page :cry:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:19 pm 
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I read your post, and I thought it was spot on! I'm sure it would be too hard for alakazam to respond directly to a post that refutes his opinion, though. For some people, it hurts to open the mind. I hope that's not the case for alakazam, but it may be.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:23 pm 
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alakazam wrote:
If someone gets off heroin and starts taking 120mg of methadone a day they are no longer taking their drug of choice but they are still completely wasted all day, however they would be "clean" if you look at it that way.


A person on 120mg of methadone, just like a person on a high dose of Suboxone, wouldn't remain "wasted" for very long. The nature of opioid tolerance is such that in a short amount of time any dose of opioids, no matter how high, is soon matched by their tolerance and effect is diminished. It doesn't matter if a person's on 20mg or 120mg of methadone, the opioid "stone" diminishes to pretty much nil.

However, side-effects are much increased with a higher dose, just as with Sub. Brain-fog, constipation, a slightly emaciated look ... all that stuff is still there. I look back at some of my methadone photos and I definitely looked far from 100%. My Sub photos I look pretty much normal, the only exception being maybe shortly after I dose where my facial expressions are a bit muted and I have a distant look in my eyes. This is perhaps why I don't consider myself 100% clean.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:23 am 
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Bronzebeta, no sense arguing with a brick wall. We hear you loud and clear. And I agree.

Amy, right on as always!!!

Diary....you amaze me at the time you take to get factual information out there for other members. You truly are an asset to this forum. Thank you so much for what you do. Diary for president!!!LOL

Amber...you're my hero...

TeeJay....good post and thread....

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:35 am 
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I dont find these labels very helpful, and would only try to define them in relation to myself, not others... So here goes!:

I do *NOT* consider myself "clean" while maintaining on Suboxone, neither would I if I were maintaining on Legal Heroin (which you can do in some countries), Methadone, or using small amounts of my DOC to keep from being sick for a period of time. At this point, I prefer to think of myself as "recovering" as opposed to "clean".

As for "Sober".. Yes, I consider myself "Sober" when using Suboxone, but I could say the same about my using days because I rarely, if ever took enough to be nodding out, incapacitated. In fact, I preferred to be active and fully functional, albeit with a much elevated mood :)

I won't consider myself "clean" until I take the MUCH, MUCH more difficult step of refraining from using any opiates/oids on a regular basis (if that day ever comes, that is).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:12 pm 
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DOAQ for the win with the last post on the first page. Thats good enough for me too!

Amy great post as well.


Ya know we can argue this topic to no end of time but all that truly matters is what you think about your sobriety!!!!!!!!!!! When you start letting other peopls views affect your way of life you are in trouble.

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