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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:37 pm 
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Someone else here posted a poll about a "painless way to detox" by slowly building up bupe levels while still using. Unfortunately they never posted the method and it seems like they were just toying around with people that need serious help. ( not very nice in my opinion )

Im wondering if anyone else has any experience using this type of method for someone who has a severly high tolerence?

If so, I would love to hear about how to do it. I am using 15 30mg oxys a day and every time I try and start subutex or suboxone, no matter how long I wait, I get severe withdrawals and always bail out due to the severity of the withdrawals.

My tolerence is just way too high. I am going to try and taper down before my next try, but the idea of also slowly building up the bupe levels in my system while still using sounds like it may have some promise.

If anyone knows a good way to do this, and has actually done this before, I would love to hear about how to do it.

Thanks,

Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:17 am 
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I am in the same boat -I'm taking 600mg/day and I want to transition to bupe. I just failed on day 1 of my taper. I don't want to go to methadone because I think it has more risk and a worse side-effect profile (although I'm not sure how accurate that is) and I also have a supply of 25 x 8mg subutex tablets and can go back to my doc for more.

I think the idea is to start taking very small amounts of bupe while slowly decreasing the oxy. I guess I could start trying that but if anyone has some direct experience with a protocol for this it would be very helpful.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:35 am 
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If I tried to imagine what might happen by taking small amounts of bupe along with the oxy: it is that you may stop getting the reinforcing pleasure that the oxy provides which would make it easier to stop taking it and therefore you would be able to decrease daily amounts of oxy because they would not get you high anymore. You take such a low dose at first that it is not enough to throw you into PWD. I had read that the Dr who runs this board has actually proposed a mix of bupe with the full agonist for pain patients to prevent them from becoming addicted to the full agonist. That is not exactly what we are taking about here but it shows that mixing the two is not unheard of.

There are ways to measure extremely small amounts of bupe accurately. They have been posted here before. I can pretty accurately measure down to 0.1mg of bupe. It may make sense to start small and work my way up. I am at the point where I need to do something because I can't keep going the way I am.

I would be willing to be a guinea pig for this and post my results for the good of the community. I will wait out today and see if anyone has additional info and maybe we can figure something out.

I don't think this will be a magic bullet to prevent WD but it may make tapering off high doses of oxy possible.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:41 am 
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In this thread http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7220, there's a fella who claims to have a way to do exactly what you guys want, but this fella has never posted his method. I just posted in that thread what I think he's doing, here's my post from that thread.

Hey Mike,

I don't think Homer is trying to be cagey about his method for no reason, in his very first post he stated, "the main downside is , once you know it, it mkes it easy to relapse, knowing u can painlessly go straight back on subs."

I can kinda see where he's coming from. He doesn't want to enable a bunch of addicts to be able to jump from opiates to Suboxone with no issue's at all because he's worried that will hurt them in the long run. Homer is apparently suffering from a moral dilema as to whether or not he should post his method. I know one of the things that kept me from bouncing back and forth between pain pills and Suboxone was knowing I'd have to go through wd each time.

Anyhoo, after reading through his posts, I have a pretty good idea of what he's doing and while I don't feel completely comfortable posting all of this, I'm gonna go ahead and do it. Here are excerpts from his posts on this thread:
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"basics are start taking small doses of sub while u still using ger and slowly build up..1mg to start with, build up over days, upping dose slowly, 2 mg second day..still using gear...bupe needs to build up in your system"

"dont anybody start doing it till ive finished whoe schedule , but u will never throw yourself into wd just taking 2mg or under, not if you are a heavy user, always take the sub just after the hit too"

"honestly u dont need to wait for wds, take small doses of sub while still using...build up the bupe levels. thats the basics of it"

"I was easily able to take 1mg to start with though, but that was while doing a lot of gear. No harm in taking it slower though. Up dose as you feel. Have lopermide and benzos in stock for when you have got the bupe levels high enough to start feeling it. Then u stop taking the gear. You will instinctively know when cos it will no longer do anything."

"In my experience 1mg of bupe has no chance of kicking a substantial amount of methadone off your receptors. Maybe if you are already 48 hrs since your last dose, then 1 mg bupe might precipitate wds"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, it appears that he's taking a small enough dose of Suboxone (1mg to start) right after taking a hit of Heroin. By doing that, he's making sure he has enough H in his system where the small amount of Suboxone won't be able to knock all or even most of the H off the opiate receptor. He seems to do this for a couple of few days to gradually build up the amount of Suboxone in his system, then he ups his Suboxone to 2mg and again builds up Suboxone in his system. As the Suboxone is building up and slowly occupying more and more receptors, the H he's using is becoming less and less effective, not as many opiate receptors left to bind to.

Eventually, as the Suboxone levels get high enough, it will occupy all of the opiate receptors rendering the H useless and at this time, you transition over to Suboxone completely. I'm guessing the Loperamide (Imodium) and the Benzo's help smooth out the transition if things get bumpy.

Basically, what he seems to be doing is using the Suboxone to effectively lower his tolerance or the amount of H getting to his opiate receptors. I guess it makes sense? Since you can't decrease the amount of Roxie's you're doing on your own, you could use Suboxone in small amounts to "tie up" more and more opiate receptors over time and that's basically lowering your tolerance.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Ill be willing to guinea pig it also and post my results. I'm going to try and taper down for a couple weeks first and see if thats possible, but if anyone has done this method before and has any additional info, please post it or private message me the info.

Thanks,

Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:58 pm 
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I've just gotta say that this method may look alright on paper but it's clearly dangerous to give an addict what is essentially 'permission' to add more opioids not to mention benzos on top of hundreds of mg's of oxycodone. 450mg of oxycodone isn't the biggest habit in the world and certainly isn't impossible to transition from without the few week rigamarole of somehow tapering down IV oxycodone use to less and less pills over the course of two weeks then taking orally so as to remove the IV componant...It looks good on paper but likely won't be doable. Stop cold turkey for 48 hours tops and induce would be my logical advice. At the very least I'm going to suggest that there's going to be no way for you to control your own titration of oxycodone and more than likely control use of benzodiazepines so if there's a third party who can actually 'hold you' to a titration schedule and you insist on titration, that would be more likely to be doable in my mind. I'm not trying to be negative and I hate to break it but I don't believe that there is a completely painless way to stop full agonists and get into recovery, my friend....At some point you've gotta pay the piper, but when you do deal with what will in all reality only be a week tops of being uncomfortable the payoff will be totally worth it. I know that sounds cold and cruel right now but it's the truth. If you keep searching out a 'painless method' you're never going to find an answer. Don't be a guinea pig, man, think more of yourself than that. Even if you don't, I think more of you than that as a fellow addict who happens to be suffering right now and looking for recovery!

Travis

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