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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 10:24 pm 
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I frequently read posts about how people getting off suboxone can enjoy little things like laughing, conversations about. Nothing, and just all the little things life has to offer.

They reference that while being on suboxone they did not enjoy any of these pleasures and were just an "empty shell" or just totally blank/zombie like.

It just seems like a bigger problem than the suboxone.

I've been on suboxone for many years and still enjoy all of the little things life has to offer.

I have a wide range of emotions. I laugh. I cry. I can have honest and enjoyable conversation with a friend for hours.

There are so many things that I enjoy regularly because I am not using full agonists.

I have never felt this emptiness.

I have asked others in person as well and they agree. Maybe it has to do with if you take a big dose or not. Idk.

Feedback.

Thanks yall.

MM1


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 Post subject: Yup
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 10:39 pm 
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When i was on suboxone i felt like a zombie, couldnt carry out a regular conversation because i would constantly draw blanks. I could still laugh at things from time to time but i felt like i wasnt getting much out of life. And this was only 4 mg a day for 2 years. Everyones different, some people can handle it some people cant. Id say the reason for not being able to enjoy things is because when you take suboxone in replacement for other opiates your brain doesnt heal because its stiff modifying your reward system. 72 days off it now and im feeling better than i ever did! The ups and downs i had on suboxone were far worse than the ups and downs i have as a completely opiate free human being


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Hi MovieMaker1,

I totally agree with you. I have been on Suboxone for 3 years (starting at 24 mg/day, and now at 3 mg/day) and have never had loss of emotion or been depressed from it. I have all my emotions, laugh, cry, think straight, etc..... Soo much more emotion than when I was in active addiction. I keep reading the posts that you are talking about and didn't understand how Sub could take away emotions like that. I guess it affects everyone different.

One day, when I am off Sub, maybe I will see it, I don't know. But I feel like I have plenty of emotion right now.

Keep smiling.
Susie


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:55 am 
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Hey MM,

It's funny you bring this up. I have always felt the same way you do about it. When I would hear people complain about this or mention the return of emotions after discontinuing suboxone I would think how lucky I was that I didn't have that side-effect. I don't doubt those who say they have that empty feeling while on it, but I personally NEVER felt that way. I felt like I was still perfectly myself, just as I was before.

Now here's the kicker...since I have started tapering and have gotten pretty low I have started noticing a return of my full emotions. It's the strangest thing because I never realized they were dulled. When I am happy I am so much happier, I laugh more and really enjoy being with my family and friends. But I can also go from zero to bitch in about 3.2 seconds...LOL. I don't know how much of this is related to the taper, but I have noticed it. And my best friend and my mother have both said something to me on three different occasions, that I seem more myself. My best friend told me the other day that when she was leaving a get together we were at she looked over at her daughter and said, "Jen's back".

I don't know why, but it really made me feel good. Like I have kind of crossed a little hurdle in my recovery.

Anyway, I don't know if this is what you were looking for. I just thought it was interesting that you would ask that when I have been thinking the exact same thing. However, if I didn't think I could stay sober without suboxone I would not hesitate for a moment to stay on it and I would be perfectly happy as I was. As I said, I never noticed my somewhat dulled personality while I was on my full dose, only since getting down to about 1mg.


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:05 am 
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When i first started I used to feel real happy on the stuff and pretty much always felt happy lots of emotion, it went from that to feeling a a sort of flatline effect,now im stuck In "I'm ok" mode...


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:44 am 
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Totally agreed.

This place has definitely over recent months taken a negative spin towards the old Suboxone. I think we really need to reaffirm our philosophy as a board.

There's a reason so little medical money goes into researching addictive drugs, and it's because of all the stigma that comes associated with treating a drug-with-a-drug. Fuck that. We need everythhing we can to fight this monster. Once upon a time we woulda all been 6' under.

As much as I hated it, but a bit of whacking-the-fuck-outta-negative-opinions can have its place here no?


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:36 am 
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I agree with you, MM1. I started out on sub years ago at a pretty high dose and stayed there for a long while. Only in the last several months have I tapered down. I never noticed any loss of any type of emotions, not on the high dose and no 'return of emotions' at the lower dose (about 1 mg) either. I just never noticed suboxone having any effect on my emotions whatsoever. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but dare I suggest that with all this talk about losing one's emotions, that it could just be the power of suggestion affecting some people around here?


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:05 am 
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@Five...

I don't see why you saying that would piss anyone off. I can understand why you would think that because I thought the same thing until I experienced it myself. I really didn't expect any difference at all when I tapered. However, I stand by what I described as my experience. I don't believe that everyone has this issue, if you can even call it an issue. I stated before that I was perfectly happy while on the higher dose of suboxone and would not hesitate to return to it if I felt I needed to.

@TJ...

I am right there with ya bro...I miss the supportive place this forum was once upon a time. I don't understand why people want to come here and bash on sub. This is a support forum for goodness sakes. There are so many other places to go and spout that crap...I wish they would leave this one alone!


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:15 am 
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I bet it has alot to do with how you feel before suboxone, if your all zombied out on dope and then go on subs than you will probobly think suboxone gives you MORE emotion and it makes perfect sense that you would balk at other people's experiences....


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:53 pm 
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When you think about it, is it really that far fetched to think that a partial OR a full agonist Opiat can dull emotions?? I mean if a .3 milligram injection of bupe can keep someone without tolerance out of pain wile they are awake for a surgery than I think it's pretty safe to say it can have a dulling effect on the emotions of an Opiat tolerant individual...... it's an opiat, I mean come on opiats full or partial agonists have always been used/abused to numb emotional and physical pain...


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Thanks for all the input guys.

The thing is, I've been off it before after long term use. Just MY experience though.

Teejay. This country has a full on epidemic on their hands. So. They either do something to try and help the issue or watch their people die.

I always liked when I heard that 7 people in Florida die every day from overdose on opiates now. If that many manatees washed up on shore the country would be outraged lol.

Being an addict. The only disease we have to be convinced that we have, but once they convince us, there is no real help left lol. Toss you to the wolves in meetings.


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:33 pm 
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I can say without a doubt that I was too numbed out on suboxone. 100%. I was not able to fully live life.. and one huge factor was the fact that gradually (over many years) was unable to enjoy the people in my life. Good people who were funny, caring and overall good company. I fake laughed for years.. This is a true story from my personal experience. I was ok with all that for a while because I knew there was a bigger picture involved and I knew suboxone had helped me tremendously. But, I can honestly say that I am happier while not on it. I was not truly happy for the last couple years of my maintenance.. I was going through the motions, that's it.

And before you say that it was not from sub, I beg to differ. I know how it affected me just like I don't doubt that you are totally ok on sub. Everyone experiences it differently but there are enough of us who have dealt with this issue that it can't be denied. I'm not sure why you continue to do so?


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Movie maker your right, There are other contries that do crazier shit like put drug smugglers to death, but there is no country in the world that can be compared to this one when it comes to the sheer scale of destruction lies and bullshit...the governments "concern" about drug addiction is only that there is still not enough of it, everything the government does to "adress" the drug problem is in all actuality increasing and cultivating MORE addiction and they understand this very well, better than anyone in fact. The only people that don't understand this are the vast majority of American citizens that support drug laws, its sheer stupidity and sheeplike mindlessness on their part. If anybody knows that prohibition increases addiction it's the American government so the real question is why do they want so many people to be drug addicts? During my time working for the government I have seen alot of shit, but one thing that I like to tell people about is all the time that I spent transporting goods from Southeast Asia to my co-workers in Afghanistan gaurding opium fields from "terrorists", we are attempting to rebuild that country and they only have one substantial source of income so that needed to be protected as well.


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:01 pm 
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semperfiguy wrote:
......... so the real question is why do they want so many people to be drug addicts? .


1) Federal spending
2) tax increases to support the bogus WOD
3) Increased incarceration = prison spending
4) Military and enforcement technology manufacturers benefit
5) Banks benefit from money laundering..?
6) Political reasons/ tool

Oh yeah, and the actual profits from the illegal drug trade boost the economy in general.


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 Post subject: Difference of opinion
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:13 pm 
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There is a difference between believing a new poster who is screaming about the evils of Suboxone and taking the word of Tinydancer, who we know as a stand up member and is respected here. I've never doubted anyone who claims Sub dulls emotions. It just isn't that bad for me. That, or I've been on it and other opiates so long I forget.

TJ brought up an issue that has me concerned. On one hand, I've been accused of having a heavy hand banning anyone who comes here and spouts the "so called truth". You all know what I'm talking about. Now TJ says we are not hard enough on the anti sub crowd. Are Amy and I not hard enough on these idiots? I mean we don't kick them out for just posting their views. We ban them when they don't show respect for our rules. Do we need to be harder on them? You threw me a hard one there TJ. What do you suggest?

r62

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:36 pm 
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My experience once off Suboxone was like so many on this board. I never realized how numb I was until I got off Suboxone. This was not only my observation, but the observation of family and friends, as well. Many of those friends didn't even know I was on Suboxone. They did, however, notice a change in my personality once I was off of it. I don't think the power of suggestion had any role in what they noticed in me?

Is making statements like the one I just made bashing Suboxone? Not in my opinion, the statement I just made is simply a fact from my experience with Suboxone, it's the truth and we should all feel free to speak the truth about Suboxone.

Before Hatmaker was asked to leave as a mod, this board was heavily pro-Suboxone. One could hardly utter a negative word about Suboxone lest Hat came along and squashed them. Now that Hat has left, people feel free to speak the truth and I think that's great.

As for all the negativity, most of that is being generated by winningduhepic and his 1000 different personalities.

And just so no one gets confused, I am NOT anti-Suboxone. I know how much Suboxone did for me, I'm pretty dang sure I wouldn't be clean today if it weren't for Suboxone.

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:16 pm 
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rule62 wrote:
There is a difference between believing a new poster who is screaming about the evils of Suboxone and taking the word of Tinydancer, who we know as a stand up member and is respected here. I've never doubted anyone who claims Sub dulls emotions. It just isn't that bad for me. That, or I've been on it and other opiates so long I forget.

TJ brought up an issue that has me concerned. On one hand, I've been accused of having a heavy hand banning anyone who comes here and spouts the "so called truth". You all know what I'm talking about. Now TJ says we are not hard enough on the anti sub crowd. Are Amy and I not hard enough on these idiots? I mean we don't kick them out for just posting their views. We ban them when they don't show respect for our rules. Do we need to be harder on them? You threw me a hard one there TJ. What do you suggest?

r62


Thank you for the kind words, Rule. I know there is a difference but that isn't reflected in the OP's post.. so I feel the need to clarify sometimes.

Anyway, about your questions..

I've noticed there is a lag time when banning known trolls/ banned members. Is there a reason for this? Can y'all run an IP check at the first sign of a familiar persona? I know that new IP addresses may be used and sometimes an IP blocker, but usually, you can spot similar IP addresses from previous log ins to make a connection. It would be helpful if the obvious trolls can be banned a little quicker before they're able to create 20+ threads about the same thing because then, inevitably we get another thread like this and the cycle continues.

Can I ask another non-related question? I've noticed that organization on this forum could be a bit better. I'm not judging, it's just an observation. I'm wondering if it could be helpful to request re-direct links on moved threads. It *seems* like there is hesitance to move threads to proper areas because maybe you guys are worried the OP will not be able to find their thread? Is this accurate? If so, the re-direct links would help this.. If I am mistaken, then feel free to ignore.


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 Post subject: Questions, Answers
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:15 pm 
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TD,

Concerning the first question as to why it seems to take so long to ban a troll who posts 10-20 messages and literally makes a mess out of this forum.

It all comes down to who is online at the time. Even though you see a lot of moderator names up top, most of those haven't logged in for months or years. For now it is just Amy and I. Glen does what he can but is very busy most of the time. I'll spend an hour or so in the morning and Amy will do the same at night. Not everyday either. Yes, we are short handed and are discussing how to rectify the situation.

With the IP being checked, I do it on every new poster. Problem is, if they've been banned before then they know we can check it. They can either use a different computer, laptop, phone, etc, and it will show a different IP. It is very hard to know for sure. Sometimes we just go by the behavior and boot their arses out for causing trouble. We do the best we can with the tools we are given.

The best way to get our attention is a PM. As you know, an email is sent out informing us of it so we have a better chance of knowing what's going on. If it gets really bad here, there is one member who has my phone number. He can and will call me if there is trouble brewing. I hope that answered your question.

#2 question about moving threads and having a re-direct link. Moving a thread isn't a big deal and we do it all the time. We don't hesitate to move one because it will get lost. It doesn't. No one yet has had a problem of finding their thread after moving it so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

As far as getting a link to re-direct, I doubt it. Once again, I just don't see any problems with a poster or other member finding a moved thread. If I'm wrong on this please say so. We would need to ask our admin person to see if it's possible. Sorry it's not the answer you were looking for. If you have any problem finding a certain thread, PM me or Amy.

Rule

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Back on Topic LOL I have been on Sub for 14 months. In my experience with Sub, it gave me emotion back. While on my DOC I could NOT cry. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how badly I needed to I never cried. When I got out of rehab, my grandmother who I had taken care of for 10 years, was put in the hospital 3 days before I got out. When I got out I went to see her, she had been incoherent for those 3 days. She woke up talked to me for about 15 minutes, and then was gone. I had to make the decision to take her off life support and have her placed in Hospice (she was 86, so it wasn't unexpected exactly.) I cried, cried and cried some more. It was so wierd. I hadn't cried in years.

I am not taking away from anyone else's experience, because I believe that since we are all unique, anything that goes into our bosy is going to have a unique effect. I am at 6mg and have been since 5 days after induction. But, I will say that at times, I feel a bit numb to emotion. Just not all of the time. And I am pretty sure when I get off Sub, I will notice that I am more emotional without it. But my question to ponder and I ask this seriously.

Are we unemotional because of the Suboxone, or too emotional because we no longer have it? I ask this because like anyone else on here that is going to get off Sub or already has, may give me some insight into this. But I realize we are all different so I am curious your thoughts on my above question.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:20 am 
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Rule, it's easy for me to be emotional on the topic right now given what I've been through recently. Just chill, you guys are doing an awesome job managing a tough crowd.

tj


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