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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:29 am 
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qhorsegal2 wrote:

@TJ...

I am right there with ya bro...I miss the supportive place this forum was once upon a time. I don't understand why people want to come here and bash on sub. This is a support forum for goodness sakes. There are so many other places to go and spout that crap...I wish they would leave this one alone!


I probably shouldn't post right now because I'm feeling a little frustrated. TJ, I know you're not in a great place right now, and maybe that means that you are seeing things somewhat negatively. But I'm surprised to see you complaining that this forum has taken "a negative spin" towards suboxone. What did you think was going to happen when we seemed to come to a mutual decision to let there be more free expression here? You were one of the people who complained the loudest when it seemed that negative opinions weren't allowed. Do you really want it to go back to the way it was?

Horsegal, I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you by quoting your post, but your second sentence makes me want to give up. To our ability, and with the time available to us, Rule and I do our best to make this a supportive place. And you frequent posters also do a wonderful job supporting people, which I greatly appreciate. We support people who are going on sub, we support people making the decision to try recovery without sub. We try to alleviate fears, answer questions, and protect our members from outside abuse/trolls. But apparently, it was a more supportive place here when negativity about sub was banned?

Horsegal, I think you're a great member and I don't want you to be the subject of my frustration when you do so much good here. You're not the only person saying that this place was more supportive before either. (BTW, you must have posted under a different name since your current name has only been here for a couple months. This isn't the first time I've had the feeling that you've been around longer than it seems. :))

TD, we can't look up a member's IP address until they post something. We can look up their email address that they link to their membership, but that's it. And it's usually not very straightforward. When Rule banned mrbiznaz, I only figured out that soberonsuboxone was the same person because of his obnoxious behavior and the fact that both members had IP addresses in both Glendale, AZ and Witchita KS. The IP addresses were not exactly the same for either of them. Given that both of the members signed up on Sunday 4/29 and that Rule had one banned on that afternoon and I had the other banned by 1 am Monday morning, I don't think the lag time was very long. There is no way to do it instantaneously and no simple way to do it at all. It always involves some investigating. Also, Rule and I usually try to get each other's opinion before we ban. There is really no easy way to start recognizing previously used IP addresses unless we start writing them down. I might be able to remember that a troll came from the same part of KS as before, but I'm not going to remember that his IP address was 128.211.48.74. My memory is just not that good.

I'd like to find a way to end this post in a positive way, despite the fact that I'm not feeling very positive. When there were 3 of us moderating, we seemed to do well. Rule and I do need more help, but it's not terribly easy to find the right mod. We're working on it. Perhaps if the criticism were more constructive I could respond to it better. I'm hearing from several people that the forum isn't as supportive as it was, but in what way? Do there need to be more posts telling newcomers that they did the right thing by choosing suboxone? Do people who are tapering need more support? If it's a simple case of the forum seeming to accept more negative views and not censoring people who have some negative things to say about sub, I'm not sure that that's going to be changing, at least while I'm a mod. People sometimes have some very legitimate complaints about sub, even when they acknowledge that sub saved their lives. People need a supportive, but honest place to recover. That's been my goal in moderating, but I understand that I might not have enough to give.

I'll be back Sat. evening. :)

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:21 am 
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Horse gal that's such a great point you bring up! I have been talking with sub users former sub user about this for three years now. And every single person who said they didn't have this problem once off sub or on a lower dose also began to notice old emotions coming back. So that is a very interesting conversation for a new thread if this common occurrence continue.

As for myself i spent four years on suboxone the first few months were great the last three years and 8 months were by far the worst years of my life. I can tell you all my story but you all know it, to keep it short I had so many serious medical problems over three years and none of them were any health issues I had before subs all new. But by far the worst was the mental health issues it had caused me. I felt no emotions whatsoever and I've always been one to cry during sad movies or serious fights with my girlfriend I would get very emotional. but once I was on sub I could care less about a fight or anything for that matter I remember so many times when I was out with friends or family talking about funny stories a thing I always enjoyed I would pretend to laugh bc I honestly couldn't. Well once I started to detox and taper to start methadone, with in days I started to notice old feelings coming back. Than like horse gal all my family and friends started to say Brents back and as time went on more and more people said it too. And as time went on all my emotions and feelings came back to me and now I'm the true Brent I remember.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:56 am 
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Relax. I was just saying it felt like the pendulum had swung a bit far the other way ... but that might equally be my own personal opinions transgressing / changing a bit on the topic of late.

Once again, mods are doing a fantastic job. I couldn't be doing any better that's for sure. Didn't even last, what with all the criticism and stuff it's a hard job to take. And this board saves lives.


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:46 am 
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@Amy,

I hear what you are saying. I really didn't mean for my comment to make the moderators feel like I am complaining about how you are handling things. I think you both do an excellent job! My frustrations are toward those people who come here continually bashing suboxone, and won't give it a rest. I don't know if there is a good solution. I don't want to see anybody who has a legitimate issue or question about treatment run off. That wouldn't do any good. It would just wind up with a bunch of us sitting around patting each other on the back...definitely not conducive to enlightened discussion. Going back and reading what I said to TJ I can see how it would be frustrating to read what you would percieve as criticism with no suggestions for how things could change for the better.
I am a huge supporter of individual rights, and even when it peeves me I think everyone should be entitled to their own opinions. Yes, it is frustrating to me that we have had so many trolls lately. But it is definitely not the moderators fault, and I think you are absolutely doing everything possible to put a stop to it.

Just to share a little something, maybe it will make you understand a bit more where I'm coming from. The other day when we had the last round of banning I was having a hard time. I had run into someone the night before who is still actively using and they were asking about my treatment. When I told them I was getting ready to taper off they went into this big rant about how it was unfair of the doctors to take me off the medicine and how I was never going to be happy again, my brain will never be able to function normally without drugs and I would be miserable for the rest of my life...that is IF I could actually complete my taper and stay sober. I had been doing so well with my attitude about my taper and it really kind of knocked me for a loop. Made me start doubting myself. Then I logged on here and read all the posts that guy had made, basically saying the same thing. So it just made my already poor outlook even worse.

Now, even though it put me in a negative place I still believe this person had every right to post what he thinks is the truth. I believe somewhere in his head he is doing some good by warning people about how hard quitting suboxone is. It's just hard for me to come here and read stuff like that when I am already in a kind of fragile state. That is what I meant when I said what I did. However, your last post made me realize that I absolutely don't want to take the risk of being censored in what we are allowed to say here. Everyone should be free to express their opinions without fear of being reprimanded as long as it is done respectfully. I think you guys are doing an excellent job recognizing potential trolls and allowing them just enough rope to hang themselves so to speak. I wouldn't have done anything differently.

I'm sorry if you felt like I was questioning your methods Amy. I really didn't mean for it to come across that way. And yes, I was a member here before under the username Qhorsegal. I lost my password and had changed email accounts so I couldn't retrieve it. So when I came back I just added the #2 and continued on. :D


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Moderating this board is like trying to herd cats. The only way I'd do it is if I could put shock collars on every cat, it may not help me in herding them, but at least I'd get the satisfaction of shocking the living shit outta them whenever I felt like it!!! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Moderating this board is like trying to herd cats. The only way I'd do it is if I could put shock collars on every cat, it may not help me in herding them, but at least I'd get the satisfaction of shocking the living shit outta them whenever I felt like it!!! :wink:



oh, how I've missed your humor......

:wink: :wink: :wink:

well I know this is off topic, but I'll be back around now, hopefully every day, but we'll see how it goes.
I don't get home from work til 6 or so, but I cut my son's nap out and he goes to bed WITHOUT A FIGHT
which is a WONDERFUL change of pace....
so I definitely can find an hour most nights to devote here.... and the weekends are kinda hit and miss, but I'll be
around,,,
I missed you guys, ya know??

LOL

I really do Love that post, romes.....^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:25 pm 
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WE'VE MISSED YOU TOO, AMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome back, Welcome Back, Welcome BACK!!!!!

PS---don't get any bright ideas, you ain't puttin' no shock collar on me!!!

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:07 pm 
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Amber!!! I can't tell you how much I've missed your sweet presence, both personally and as a mod! It would be so awesome to have you back on a daily basis, but I also want to make sure that you're not overwhelmed. Great news about naptime being gone. It does make a huge difference in how much kids sleep at night! Now you have a little time to yourself in the evenings!

Big Hugs,

Amy

P.S. Sorry I grumped out, folks. Definitely no hard feelings.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:34 pm 
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Amy, even when you "grump out", you're still pretty darn nice!! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Amy, even when you "grump out", you're still pretty darn nice!! :wink:



+1 on THAT TOO!!!!!!


and thankyou guys,,,, seriously.... very thankful for the warm welcome....

I've missed this place, in a weird sorta twilight zone, kinda way...... (the music playing in the background right now)

ha ha ha ha

If I start to feel overwhelmed,,, I'll letcha know...... LOL

seriously,,, it'll be nice to be on here in the evening, give me something to do
after my lil guys asleep,
besides fall asleep watching sappy movies.......
LOL

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:39 am 
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Welcome back Amber :)

And Amy cheers ... I actually think you guys have a pretty darn good balance going on considering the crowd you're managing, with all of us having our own stuff going on as well. I'd put my hand back up to chip-in and moderate again now that there's a lot more potential for moderator-land to be democratic. Unless my own stuff of late's gotten in the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions, Answers
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:39 pm 
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rule62 wrote:
TD,

Concerning the first question as to why it seems to take so long to ban a troll who posts 10-20 messages and literally makes a mess out of this forum.

It all comes down to who is online at the time. Even though you see a lot of moderator names up top, most of those haven't logged in for months or years. For now it is just Amy and I. Glen does what he can but is very busy most of the time. I'll spend an hour or so in the morning and Amy will do the same at night. Not everyday either. Yes, we are short handed and are discussing how to rectify the situation.

With the IP being checked, I do it on every new poster. Problem is, if they've been banned before then they know we can check it. They can either use a different computer, laptop, phone, etc, and it will show a different IP. It is very hard to know for sure. Sometimes we just go by the behavior and boot their arses out for causing trouble. We do the best we can with the tools we are given.

The best way to get our attention is a PM. As you know, an email is sent out informing us of it so we have a better chance of knowing what's going on. If it gets really bad here, there is one member who has my phone number. He can and will call me if there is trouble brewing. I hope that answered your question.

#2 question about moving threads and having a re-direct link. Moving a thread isn't a big deal and we do it all the time. We don't hesitate to move one because it will get lost. It doesn't. No one yet has had a problem of finding their thread after moving it so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

As far as getting a link to re-direct, I doubt it. Once again, I just don't see any problems with a poster or other member finding a moved thread. If I'm wrong on this please say so. We would need to ask our admin person to see if it's possible. Sorry it's not the answer you were looking for. If you have any problem finding a certain thread, PM me or Amy.

Rule


Thank you for answering!

#1- Was kind of what I thought. When you run an IP check, do you just see the actual IP from that particular post or do you get to see every IP address the member has ever logged in on? You know what could be helpful? If a member was marked as banned when they're banned. Either a grey'd out name or something noting they are banned. Does an admin still write code for this site or is it just staying the way it is? If so, I'll stop suggesting things..lol

#2- I wasn't looking for any specific answer. I was genuinely curious if it was the board's stance to limit moving threads to keep confusion down. I haven't noticed a lot of threads moved which is why I asked. That's all.. then redirect links came to mind because I know they're really helpful on other boards.

** I totally realize that only a few mods actually check in here. I'm aware. ;) I also think you guys do a good job, considering the climate here.

I have one more question. Do you have a "merge thread" function? Maybe that could be helpful in cutting down on the repetitive threads? I'm pretty sure this very thread has been posted at least 10 times in the last few months. Maybe when someone has a habit (on either side of the coin) of spamming the same topic, the threads could be merged into the original thread and that will cut down on the urge to regurgitate the same stuff? I'm not sure if you have that function or not, just an idea..

Anyway, I don't envy moderating this board and I'm sure it isn't easy. I am genuinely offering suggestions on things that I've seen work for other boards to help streamline conversations and knock out drama before it snowballs.

Thanks for everything.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:38 pm 
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TD,

Yes, we see exactly how many different IP's the member has posted from. With all the mobile devices available now it is hard to nail down.

We cannot merge one thread into another. And even if we could we probably wouldn't because it would cause confusion on the original post if another is thrown into it. Amber goes to great lengths posting older thread links that are similar to the discussion. Kuddo's to her for putting in the extra work.

All we can do is move an entire thread into a different section. We cannot move an individual post.

Did I just repeat myself? I think that answered all your questions. Just keep in mind that we are moderators not administrators. Our abilities here are limited to just keeping the peace and not much more.

Rule

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Well. That went a diff direction than I thought. I'd love to complain about laws and the government and idiots but....

I just wanted to say again... I've been off suboxone after long term use for a around ten months and felt worse than I did on it. Maybe it was something else causing most of it but I like to not crave opiates, be protected from opiates, be motivated every single day, and still have my normal mental/emotional /physical /spiritual health.

Just how I feel.

I don't see an end to this anytime soon so I will just keep telling opiate addicts that there is this other alternative. Nobody has to die. I've seen many be shamed away from suboxone and die. Many think all is behind them and jump and then die. It's sad. Truly. I have only heard of people getting off and staying off for more than a year without the use of ANY drugs. Like weed, alcohol, and the likes. Nobody I have physically seen or met on suboxone that gets off has made it a year without relapse. They usually end up coming back and getting back on track with suboxone...

So. I just share this information based on what I see, hear, and experience first hand.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:46 am 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
Well. That went a diff direction than I thought. I'd love to complain about laws and the government and idiots but....

I just wanted to say again... I've been off suboxone after long term use for a around ten months and felt worse than I did on it. Maybe it was something else causing most of it but I like to not crave opiates, be protected from opiates, be motivated every single day, and still have my normal mental/emotional /physical /spiritual health.

Just how I feel.

I don't see an end to this anytime soon so I will just keep telling opiate addicts that there is this other alternative. Nobody has to die. I've seen many be shamed away from suboxone and die. Many think all is behind them and jump and then die. It's sad. Truly. I have only heard of people getting off and staying off for more than a year without the use of ANY drugs. Like weed, alcohol, and the likes. Nobody I have physically seen or met on suboxone that gets off has made it a year without relapse. They usually end up coming back and getting back on track with suboxone...

So. I just share this information based on what I see, hear, and experience first hand.




this is exactly what my suboxone Dr. says too...

just for the "record"

he's actually got a graph in his office of "number of patients'' that jump,,, how long they stay clean, until relapse,
those of us doing maintence, and SO ON....

the "maintenance row" sure looks alot more hopeful........

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:41 pm 
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It's almost like many forget how seriously hard and deadly this stuff is. It's bleak at best at the jump.

So many take suboxone for a long period, live normally during that time, don't focus on recovery, get comfortable, and jump because they don't want to take it anymore and they believe things will be just as they are on suboxone after the initial withdrawal. Wrong.

So many relapse off of suboxone. I understand not wanting to take it anymore, but it's better than dying. It's better than active addiction.

You can't forget where you came from and that is why I believe that working a recovery program of some kind is very important on suboxone whether or not you want to or think you should. It's just to keep it fresh.

Or else you just fall into normal life and jump because you are "past it" or "over it", and then complain when you see how hard it is. I think alot of this prolonged "paws" is just folks unable to adjust feeling the way they do without suboxone after long periods on the stuff. So let's blame the pharmaceutical companies and everyone but ourselves for feeling shitty. It HAS to be the suboxone. I can't just feel this depressed, shitty, anxiety ridden normally?

Functioning at a high level and living on suboxone is NOT how life will be off of it. Ever. Most expect this in some way. It seems at least.

So in the end I will take the occasional constipation and a few other small side effects to be happy, healthy, working, married, not committing crimes, being human, and alive... ANY DAY!


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:32 am 
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I completely agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^

actually,,,,
a few weeks ago, I was kind of "forgetting" why I began suboxone in the first place. then my dr. recommended volunteering at the local detox facility. there's about five of his sub patients, that do.

well NOW I go every week!!!
mostly visiting with people, reading to groups , bringing clean blankets/sheets/etc.

I actually get SO MUCH out of it, just having a GREAT reminder of HOW I felt, walking thru those doors....

the pure desperation in their eyes, I KNOW I had it too, two years ago.

anyway,
we all SHOULD be doing something, every SINGLE DAY, for our recovery...... I also meditate, exercise, read, ETC ETC....

VERY good point you bring up, Movie Maker.....
nicely done :)

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its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:05 am 
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Just for the record I jumped off of 16mg 78 days ago and I feel pretty darn good. I'm never going to assume I'm "over it". I'm an addict, which is for life. I picked up drugs over 30 years ago because I didn't want to deal with life on life's terms. Now I work a program of recovery every day so that I CAN manage my own life without using substances. I'm fucking sick of people saying no one makes it a year without either using or going back on Suboxone. There are people on this forum who have done it, and I plan on joining them. BTW I am MUCH higher functioning off of Suboxone than I was on it. If YOU can't handle life without drugs that's on you. Don't generalize your experience onto every other addict. ( one lingering effect of the detox....irritability..... Can you tell?)

Good to see you again, Amber, hope the family is doing well.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:09 pm 
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I've watched it happen wayy too many times now not to say something. And. Not sugar coated.

I dpromise I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that. But. We can't all assume that we are the exception and we don't have to take suboxone or if we get off that we have to dive all the way in to a recovery program intensively.

If you take suboxone for years and feel great with this new life you built and want to taper and get off, great. But. Don't expect it to just be easy all of a sudden. You have got to be 10000% involved in a recovery atmosphere /program. Just the way it is. And. It looks like that is what you have done lilly. Unless I'm totally off about that.

I guess I don't want addicts thinking that they can just stop suboxone, do the withdrawal, and come out the other side completely free of addiction and just as fulfilled.

Opiate addiction is the worst. I wish it were as easy as taking a medicine for awhile. Seriously. I gotta throw this one out there too...

I have seen a few on here and in my clinic that have issues with suboxone or just want off for some reason. So. They jump. And then they pick up something like weed, alcohol, or something else. Because they can "handle" it. Biggest load of crap in my opinion. Suboxone is an excellent help to many opiate addicts. I just want to keep it that way. It's not some doctor pushed horrible drug that ruins lives. If it goes that negative, you aren't working towards ecovery.

So. I understand that some stop suboxone and go on to live happy lives without it because they still chase recovery. They haven't forgotten who they are. BUT. For the most part, folks stop suboxone and think it will be easier than it is. Blame the medicine or others for "ruining" them. Or. They just can't handle it. There is just a very clear line in the sand it seems.

Again. I'm not disagreeing with you lilly. I just think it's crazy to think that if everyone here jumped off suboxone we would all stay clean for a substantial period. Maybe some. Because they have exposed themselves to recovery and keep at it. Most would blame away, say it's too hard, or just be opiate addicts and use for no reason.

Good luck to you. I'm just trying to keep somewhat true to life information. So newcomers don't just jump off because they think they don't need it or will be fine without it. Still addicts here.


Idk. Just what I've seen time and time again.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Lillyval said, "I'm fucking sick of people saying no one makes it a year without either using or going back on Suboxone. There are people on this forum who have done it...."

In support of that statement, DoaQ---4 years off Suboxone this August.

Romeo and Hawker1----3 years off Suboxone.

mg113, RainRainGoAway, BrainTx, cbk1014, aquasun----2 years off Suboxone.

These are just the people I remember off the top of my head.

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