It is currently Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:38 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:45 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:44 pm
Posts: 65
I am trying to hard to learn and understand this.... As we progress with our suboxone treatment, our brains should start making its own endorphins again, right? Well, how can those natural endorphins get into the receptors if they are plugged up with suboxone? Are our own endorphins strong enough to push the suboxone out of the receptors?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:01 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 88
Location: NWNJ
Im pretty sure Endorphins come from another part of the brain.Seems like you may be "overthinking" this med.LOL.Just take it and roll with it,you dont have to figure everything out.

_________________
I just want to get the monkey off of my back for good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:14 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:44 pm
Posts: 65
But I DO have to figure out how it works, I'm just that kind of person, LOL. I have to understand or it drives me nuts.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:27 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 am
Posts: 1496
When you abuse opiates, your brain creates more opiate receptors, which is what causes tolerance.

Tolerance is why we get withdrawals when we stop taking opiates. Tolerance is also the reason why Suboxone patients can take a daily dose of buperenorphine that would make regular people sick. We have WAY more opiate receptors than an opiate-naive person.

When you are on a maintenance dose of Suboxone (eg 4mgs or above) all of your many opiate receptors are occupied all of the time.

As far as "healing" your receptors goes, this is my understanding based on research I've done for school projects and what Dr. Junig has said on the forum: (I was in school to be an addiction counselor, for what that's worth)

Using or abusing opiates doesn't really "damage" your opiate receptors. It just causes your brain to put out more receptors to deal with the amount of opiates that you're putting into your body.

When you stop using opiates, your brain will down-regulate (take away) those extra receptors. I think this is what most people are referring to when they say "healing your receptors." Suboxone does NOT cause your brain to down-regulate any opiate receptors. As long as you stay on a stable dose of Suboxone, your tolerance level should stay the same. The bright side here is that on a stable dose you're not actually increasing your tolerance, as would be likely if you were still in active addiction. Interestingly enough, many people on Suboxone find that once they are stable they begin to feel "ready" to decrease their dose, which is pretty much the opposite of any other opiate.

As you taper off of Suboxone, especially as you get to doses below the ceiling level, your brain will begin to take back those extra receptors and your tolerance will begin to drop. This is the part of the process that causes people to feel withdrawal symptoms as their bodies begin to compensate for the decreased medication by producing more endorphins. Exercise seems to help support this process, as does tapering slowly and incrementally. Of course, you can also just quit cold turkey and eventually your brain will ramp up on endorphin production again, but it will be more uncomfortable.

I also believe that our brains heal in other ways during Suboxone treatment. Studies show that the cycle of triggering event -> drug use -> withdrawal creates and reinforces neural pathways to the point that the feeling of going through withdrawal and then getting high becomes a kind of self-reinforcing behavior. In other words, it's not just the drug that's addictive, but the whole cycle of getting high, feeling shitty, then getting high again.

Being on a stable dose of Suboxone and dosing once per day lets us change that behavior and stop reinforcing those pathways/circuits in our brains. Practicing positive ways of coping with emotions and urges to use lets us create NEW pathways that grow stronger with use.

Our brains are incredibly plastic and have a greater ability to heal than was previously thought possible. If you're interested in healing your brain, look into some of the research that's being done on mindfulness meditation. It's truly amazing and I know that for me and a few other members meditation has made a huge difference in our recovery process. One form of therapy that incorporates mindfulness meditation with CBT techniques is called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) and it shows a lot of promise for treating addiction.

Healing from addiction is far more involved than just getting our number of opiate receptors back to "normal." We have to heal from certain attitudes and ways of thinking that have reinforced our behavior, learn to recognize what triggers our drug use and develop new ways to deal with those triggers, cultivate new interests, create positive habits of self-care, learn how to recognize our emotions and internal states, deal with any underlying mental or physical illnesses and create a support network (among many other possible issues that we might have to face along the way.) Suboxone can be a great tool, kind of like training wheels, as we embark on this process. I know that a LOT of healing occured in my life during my 2 years on Suboxone and that process has continued for the 2 years since I stopped Sub.

I hope this info helps and let me give my general disclaimer that I'm not a medical professional, etc.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:50 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:44 pm
Posts: 65
What a wonderful reply, Diary of a Quittter! Now that is exactly the type of explanation I was looking for. Something I can print out and my mom can understand also, without it being too complicated.


And what you said about being mindful and meditation is perfect for me, as I'm a Buddhist. Thank you so much!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:27 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
THANKS diary-". your a very good addictions counselor!! sure ment a lot to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:53 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:59 pm
Posts: 993
Location: Carson City, Nevada
Diary of a Quitter wrote:
When you abuse opiates, your brain creates more opiate receptors, which is what causes tolerance.

Tolerance is why we get withdrawals when we stop taking opiates. Tolerance is also the reason why Suboxone patients can take a daily dose of buperenorphine that would make regular people sick. We have WAY more opiate receptors than an opiate-naive person.

When you are on a maintenance dose of Suboxone (eg 4mgs or above) all of your many opiate receptors are occupied all of the time.

As far as "healing" your receptors goes, this is my understanding based on research I've done for school projects and what Dr. Junig has said on the forum: (I was in school to be an addiction counselor, for what that's worth)

Using or abusing opiates doesn't really "damage" your opiate receptors. It just causes your brain to put out more receptors to deal with the amount of opiates that you're putting into your body.

When you stop using opiates, your brain will down-regulate (take away) those extra receptors. I think this is what most people are referring to when they say "healing your receptors." Suboxone does NOT cause your brain to down-regulate any opiate receptors. As long as you stay on a stable dose of Suboxone, your tolerance level should stay the same. The bright side here is that on a stable dose you're not actually increasing your tolerance, as would be likely if you were still in active addiction. Interestingly enough, many people on Suboxone find that once they are stable they begin to feel "ready" to decrease their dose, which is pretty much the opposite of any other opiate.

As you taper off of Suboxone, especially as you get to doses below the ceiling level, your brain will begin to take back those extra receptors and your tolerance will begin to drop. This is the part of the process that causes people to feel withdrawal symptoms as their bodies begin to compensate for the decreased medication by producing more endorphins. Exercise seems to help support this process, as does tapering slowly and incrementally. Of course, you can also just quit cold turkey and eventually your brain will ramp up on endorphin production again, but it will be more uncomfortable.

I also believe that our brains heal in other ways during Suboxone treatment. Studies show that the cycle of triggering event -> drug use -> withdrawal creates and reinforces neural pathways to the point that the feeling of going through withdrawal and then getting high becomes a kind of self-reinforcing behavior. In other words, it's not just the drug that's addictive, but the whole cycle of getting high, feeling shitty, then getting high again.

Being on a stable dose of Suboxone and dosing once per day lets us change that behavior and stop reinforcing those pathways/circuits in our brains. Practicing positive ways of coping with emotions and urges to use lets us create NEW pathways that grow stronger with use.

Our brains are incredibly plastic and have a greater ability to heal than was previously thought possible. If you're interested in healing your brain, look into some of the research that's being done on mindfulness meditation. It's truly amazing and I know that for me and a few other members meditation has made a huge difference in our recovery process. One form of therapy that incorporates mindfulness meditation with CBT techniques is called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) and it shows a lot of promise for treating addiction.

Healing from addiction is far more involved than just getting our number of opiate receptors back to "normal." We have to heal from certain attitudes and ways of thinking that have reinforced our behavior, learn to recognize what triggers our drug use and develop new ways to deal with those triggers, cultivate new interests, create positive habits of self-care, learn how to recognize our emotions and internal states, deal with any underlying mental or physical illnesses and create a support network (among many other possible issues that we might have to face along the way.) Suboxone can be a great tool, kind of like training wheels, as we embark on this process. I know that a LOT of healing occured in my life during my 2 years on Suboxone and that process has continued for the 2 years since I stopped Sub.

I hope this info helps and let me give my general disclaimer that I'm not a medical professional, etc.


Thank you, Mommy! :lol: Just kidding, but you have such an amazing way of explaining things and reading what you write always makes me feel so much better about the whole deal. I do think it's vital that we feel that we understand, and you obviously understand AND you can explain it. If you want to counsel people, I certainly think you are cut from the right cloth.

laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Perfect
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:48 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2801
Location: Southwest
DOAQ,

So perfectly stated that I am going to have to print it and read it over again.

You are so very talented in putting it down in print.

Thank You!

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:44 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 am
Posts: 1496
Aww, you guys are too nice! I'm glad it was helpful!

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:56 pm 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:02 pm
Posts: 1
In response to the original poster, I wanted to reply and also point you towards a university website to review.

I too had this concern, as I noticed taking the Naloxone/Suboxone version made me experience pain in a different way. I currently take the medication for pain from an injury, and I notice a CLEAR difference when I would take the bupe alone, and when I would take the Suboxone. My body would ache, and although the major pains would subside to a bearable level, I experience a great amount of "achy" type pain on the Suboxone, but not Subutex. So I began to wonder, "Since I feel like I almost have the "flu achiness (NOT the flu as in a withdrawl symptom, JUST the body ache), without any other symptoms of being sick (be it a cold or w/d - i have NONE of those symptoms).

After doing a lot of research, I have found that it is agreed upon across the academic community, that the Naloxone DOES inhibit naturally occurring endorphins from their job. The endorphins, rely upon the Mu receptor very heavily to control the release of other chemicals in your brain such as dopamine. Since the Naloxone binds so strongly, very little of other chemicals get through or are utilized... I say utilized b/c the Naloxone is ALSO partially inhibiting the inhibitor. So the very little that does somehow bind, does not correctly control the receptor to tell it to release other chemicals that we would normally feel without Naloxone. Naloxone is an outdated product, and in our scientific achievements, we should be able to come up with a drug that does not also stop our own natureal systems from working correctly. I personally loved the fact that as a pain med prescribed patient, I did not feel "dopey" or "out of it" while on the Subutex. When I tried the Suboxone for insurance purposes, I immediately noticed I had achy pains that would inhibit what I would be able to do. I would also get crabbier, as I was in more constant pain. Even taking more of the Suboxone did not help (as the doctor increased the dosage from 2mg/3x/day to 4mg/3x/day). I still had that ache, and it was just about as annoying as the the constant pain I would deal with on no medications for pain. I say annoying b/c obviously its painful, but it gets your other moods to change from the sheer longevity of dealing with such a hinderance.

Anyway, if you look around the academic community, you will find a lot of info about the Mu receptor, how and why it works, and the chemicals and components that it interacts with regularly. From there, you can understand what is happening, and fine-tune your search to satisfy your answer. As for doctors and pharmacists though, I say... consider the source. How many doctors prescribing or pharmacists dispensing these medications ACTUALLY take it themselves? I really think it is unfair to have everyone gauged the same, when clearly, a lot of proceses ARE the same.. but many are different as well. Not everyone will have the same reaction to certain doses/drugs, but the things that link us all.. like the creation of endorphins and how they work... should be looked into further before those professionals are telling us patients that we simply don't feel what we feel. I know liars and degenerate ruin the use of the drug, and a lot of doctors' perspectives when treating recovery, but I personally had to deal with years of paying for a medication that made me feel like crap, and switch doctors from one referral to the next (@ HUNDREDS of $ for initial new appointments each time)... until I found a doctor who cared. Cared enough to at least read about my experience, and attempted to help find an answer. From the deduction of his advice and my research, we both agree that the Naloxone does mess with the natural endorphins mechanisms, messing up how they work (and the other chemicals associated as well). I can literally feel the difference, and can go down to 1.5 tablets of Subutex per day, compared to double that of Suboxone and I feel better on the lesser dose. Why? B/c I end up aching ALL over with the latter, and I do not feel ANY of that with the former.

And I am not advocating that doctors should be more lax with the protocol... its just that this is something they do not know about in depth. They do not take the medication to feel it, nor are most of them doing the research to see if there is a difference, b/c it would make an excuse for those who abuse the medications, to attempt to gain access to Subutex. In a case like mine where it is written to treat pain, and I have no prior addiction issues, I advocate my own case. So please, nobody take this as some type of pro-subutex campaign to promote it to be given to more people. But legit cases where patients need relief from significant swelling and loss of limbs, it is very helpful as we need those natural endorphins to be able to do their job as well. Our dopamine levels are not all messed up from substance abuse. I am simply adding this disclaimer b/c apparently too many people look for excuses to go on it and abuse it. Making it more difficult for people like myself who do not want to be on ridiculous levels of opioids and opiates, muscle relaxers and the gamut of pain management medications.

So to finally get to the website, check this out. It explains a little bit, and relates it to give an understanding of how the endorphins and other mechanisms work. I think by browsing around from this link, you can find the answer you are looking for.

To simply give an answer though.. yes.. endorphins are ABSOLUTLEY inhibited from performing their natural job when Naloxone is introduced. My feet swell up within 4 hours of taking a dose, along with my back and other muscles. Why? B/c the endorphins cannot perform their job, telling my body to release the correct amount (or restrict the correct amount) of chemical. The neuromediators are blocked, and therefore cannot allow other chemicals or transmitters/inhibitors to do their job.


-I hope this helps
I know it does not relate directly to Naloxone but we are discussing the receptors/inhibitors and the endorphins' responses. They simply cannot work correctly with a blocker. Taking something that is a neuromediator, and adding a neuromediator blocking agent will NOT allow the neuromediator to perform its correct function. And we all know that even small imbalances can cause dramatic effects in people.



Here's the site: http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_03/ ... roine.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:09 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:02 pm
Posts: 994
Agree that all other opioids, whether exogenous or endogenous, are blocked by Suboxone. I disagree that naloxone is the key player though. Buprenorphine itself has a similar binding affinity to naloxone, and exists in far greater quantity in the synapse than the naloxone, so really it's the buprenorphine that is blocking the endorphins more than the naloxone.

Some people believe that being on buprenorphine, or methadone, or any opioid, prevents you from getting an endorphin buzz from exercise or pleasurable activity. Sure endorphins may be blocked. But I have a firm belief that other neurotransmitters play a big role in the "jogger's high". I swim 3km's every 2 days and I still feel a real nice buzz after a solid swim. This to me is a sign that endorphins are only a small part of the picture.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:37 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Posts: 2296
Location: Tennessee
I get on my treadmill almost every day and it helps me feel better immediately. I don't know if that is the endorphins or just an exercise "high" but it's enjoyable for me and sub doesn't interfere with that thank goodness.

_________________
Jennifer


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group