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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:26 pm 
spider, that was a refreshingly positive post, and it sounds like you have very well balanced, proactive recovery. It's good for newcomers to the forum, who are thinking of attending meetings, to hear that there is a growing acceptance of Suboxone treatment in 12 step programs.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:21 pm 
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I never attended AA or NA meetings, but my addiction counselor was a big 12 step guy. He walked me through the steps over the years I was on suboxone and something I noticed right away was the glassy look in his eyes when he would discuss the 12 steps.

It was as if he was brainwashed or pre-programmed like a robot to recite this, that or the other. I'm a pretty free spirit so right away this rubbed me the wrong way. There was some great information I was able to pick up through the process, but several times my bullshit meter went off and I refused to take part. This pissed him off to high hell and I began to understand that he expected me to follow every rule, every suggestion that 12 step had.

This is where the wheels came off the wagon, because I knew then and know now that we are all different. Just because we're addicts doesn't mean we're all identical either. I likened it to me being a square peg that he was trying to pound into a round hole. It seemed to me that 12 step was trying to cure a serious disorder by treating everyone the same. It's actually a belief of 12 step that we are not 'special'. At least that's what he told me and I read that somewhere too. Well, I am special, I am me and no one else is so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Anyway, I took away from 12 step what worked for me...so far...and junked what I didn't agree with.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:52 pm 
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I have always attended AA, but I know many who have recovered in NA. I despise the NA "stance" on ORT, and the self-righteous folks who denigrate those of us who are on (or have been on) ORT. All that abstinence-only crap defies logic. If you seek to discuss the subject with the zealots, they place so many strings on their notions they become idiotic.

When you run into some idiotic "drug-free" NA type who smokes like a chimney telling you how to define your clean time, ask how they excuse their nicotine use! Its insane!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:12 pm 
Yeah exactly the "old timers" who have nothing better in life than to sit around the tables of a 12 step group everyday like to shove all their self righteous shit down your throat. I dont mind AA/NA I go to a couple meetings a week right now because it is recommended by my outpatient treatment. The thing tho about 12 step groups that realy realy bug me is when they say "unless you attend these meetings you will relapse, the moment you stop meetings you have already relapsed even before you actualy use again". Im sorry but I dont go around telling people hooked on opiates that "they wont stay clean from opiates unless they take suboxone, there is no other way" because Im not GOD and I dont know the outcomes of other peoples lives before they happen. AA/NA nuts (not all of the people who attend just the hardcore nuts) act like they are god and can tell you how your life is going to turn out if you dont do exactly what they did to get sober. I was at a meeting yesterday and a guy from my outpatient was there as well and we are friends now and he had to have part of his foot amputated and it got all infected and was black and looked almost gangrene and he was on a measly 3 norocos a day and my counselor had the nerve to tell him that he cant come back to treatment until he is "clean". Hes an opiate addict and is on suboxone but he absolutely needs that pain medication and in my opinion should be on STRONGER meds than hydros and she tells him he cant come back till he stops taking them. She would rather have him be in excruciating pain then to take a couple pills that wont get him any type of buzz 1) cuz hes on suboxone 2) because nobody with a tolerance and history of opiate use gets high off 30mgs hydrocodone. I told her about how suboxone wont allow a person to get high from an opiate while they were on it and she didnt want to hear it. She also gives me smart little comments about suboxone any chance she gets. Oh and she wont let the guy with the bad foot to take the Norco but she does let another opiate addict in the group take norco because he has lower back pain :shock: . All of this type of thinking is from her being brainwashed by AA its pretty aggravating. Shes a good counselor and I like her alot but when it comes to the AA speak I tune out.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:11 am 
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What you describe are issues with people, not with the programs of NA/AA. I agree that this crap gets real old, but always go back to the fact that none of these folks would know unless a choice was made to tell them. There is no way to completely shield ourselves from stigma or the attitudes that create them. Some folks get all charged about changing things, but all we can really hope to change is ourselves.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:52 pm 
Well I mean that partly true but in all fairness if every meeting you go to is populated by 80% of people like I described it starts to become problems with the program. The whole structure of that program makes people think that way. I also dont like step meetings/big book study meetings either. That type of stuff should be worked out with a sponsor in private. Sometimes I go into a meeting with a whole lot of stuff I want to get off my chance because Im having a real hard time thinking of relapse and it turns out to be nothing but a "book report or bible study..... cough cough big book study What if someone comes into that meeting and the only reason they came is because they were going to relapse but decided to go to a meeting, what the hell good is a bunch of people saying "god god god" going to do other than turn them off. I have to say that once AA/NA isnt required for me anymore I wont be attending. Like Dr. Junig says "people on suboxone just don't have that desperation" and he's 100% correct. Maybe one day there will be Suboxone maintainence anonymous or Opiate replacement anonymous but until then I wont be attending meetings once I dont have to. I can see meetings being very beneficial to people who are realy into god and religion but for the majority of us it just turns us off. They are supposed to say "higher power" but the purposely say GOD to make non religious people uncomfortable.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:33 pm 
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You have a pretty negative view of the program, so its small wonder that's what you perceive when you do go. I've attended on and off for over 30yrs and have NEVER seen anyone who was hurting deflected from discussing their problems. On the other hand, I have seen many who said nothing, then griped because they felt the discussion didn't address their issues!

I have, of course, done similar things, and had similar perceptions. Looking back, it seems clear that I got exactly what I was expecting: when I expected boredom, offensive religiosity, rambling, etc.....that is exactly what I got. On the other hand, when I went in desperate for help, I got that, too.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:43 pm 
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I had much the same experience as suboxowned, although I admit I didn't go for very long. I found it to be very religious, too - So much so that it ends up making outsiders of non-believers, which I think is a damn shame. It's a golden opportunity to be inclusive, but I've never experienced it that way. When it comes to people on sub - they end up being excluded because they're made to feel so shitty - over and over hearing how they're really not clean.

All that said, I recognize that it's a valuable tool for some people - but it's just not for everyone.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:31 pm 
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AA is a program for people with alcohol problems, you DO NOT need to be an alcoholic to attend, you DO NOT need to believe in god... The only rule is a desire to STOP drinking, to be honest with everyone on this thread you have NO business going to an AA meeting if you do NOT have a desire to stop drinking, the program has been misused by people ( including our court system ) trying to substitute everyother addiction for alcoholism... We would always ask any newcomer if they had a desire to stop DRINKING , if they did they were welcome, AA is not some club !!! If they did'nt have a desire to stop drinking we gave them the addresses of AA open meetings, usually on Sat and Sun nites... Drinking problems and Opiate problems are so different... Calling the AA big book a " Bible " makes you sound so uninformed, and frankly stupid. Sorry


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:00 pm 
Sorry you think Im stupid for insulting your precious cult, actualy no Im not go fuck yourself I can have my opinion and its not just my opinion its shared by many others that have tried the "program". I have a mind of my own Im not some small minded mental midget like you who is brainwashed by all the AA/NA bullshit. What do you call a book that tells you to turn your life over to GOD, that everything in your life is part of GODs plans, and that you are powerless to make any decisions in your life its already planned and layed out by GOD, that pretty similar to a bible. Like I said before 12 step groups would rather you use there program and fail repeatedly relapsing then they would to see you successfully get clean using medication like suboxone. I also never said that they didnt allow you to attend for whatever reason, sure they will all talk to you and give you phone numbers guess why? its not because they want to its because its one of the 12 steps that they are brainwashed to follow. After they give out there numbers they go back to there little clique of people and make you feel like an outcast if you dont conform to their way of thinking. Ive been forced into meetings throughout my entire life (probably been to more than you) and Ive tried there way and it doesnt work, ive always left a meeting more depressed than when I walked in. I choose to live my life not fighting my addiction and thinking about it every second of the day like these people. I dont drop to my knees and give god a BJ every morning either, I control my own life not god, I may not be able to control my addiction once I start using but Im in control of every other aspect of my life. Oh and lets not forget about the huge success rate of AA/NA, oh thats right there isnt one its 5% if you go to AA and its 5% if you dont. I think Ill go with the latter and not sit around drinking bad coffee with a bunch of bible thumpers who dont want u there if you arent religous. I think at my next AA meeting Im gonna bring up the fact that I dont believe in god and that Im on suboxone and see how Im treated then we'll see how "welcome" they make me feel.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:14 pm 
Well clearly if someone is at an AA meeting they have some desire to be their. I just cant see basically telling someone their not welcome to your meeting because they dont have this desire to stop drinking. They may be close to relapse an just need somewhere to turn. They do try to shove their one track minded theory down your throat at meetings. Any meeting wether its AA or NA. I have never found them that useful. I think someone has already said this but it reminds me of some kind of cult where you have 1 leader along with a bunch of followers who jump when the leader says jump. This is only my OPINION so please i hope no one takes offense to it. All the people at the meetins in my town do is drink crap loads of coffee, chain smoke on ciggaretts and talk about drugs. Almost fantasize about them. Everytime i've went to a meeting i left thinking about drugs. They like to sit their telling stories about their use and to me, thats just not very helpful. If it wasnt so close minded it wouldnt be so bad but they think their way is the only way to achieve sobriety. Frankly, i find it the most unsuccessful method i've ever heard of. Its like they try an brainwash people. Anyways, i want continue with my OPINIONS on that matter as i dont attend meetings and im doing just fine. Sub and this forum has been all the support i've needed along with my family. I use this forum as my meeting and basically anything else i may need along my journey.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:24 pm 
Yeah lifesaver you pretty much nailed what the meetings are like around here to, also everything I said was also my opinion. If someone does well with meetings thats awesome they should keep going, but Im not gonna be suckered into thinking that if I stop going to meetings and this is a word for word quote straight from someone at a meeting "I have already relapsed before I even pick up a drug or drink". Im doing just fine with suboxone and for me meetings arent neccessary. Like I said earlier i dont go around telling other addicts there that "if they dont get on suboxone as soon as possible they have already relapsed before they pick up a drug" because for one thing its fucking rude and who am I to tell someone what they have to do and how to do it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Sub Ox Owned , I just read a few lines from your post to my wife, her response " theres a toasty place in hell for you " You are such a gifted writer to put God and bj in the same sentance , Oh ya I forgot one of the first things I learned in AA, some of us are sicker than others


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:57 pm 
You started all this with me by insulting me for having a different opinion than you, which I totaly understand cuz thats what they teach you in AA/NA that if someone thinks different than you they are wrong. I could care less what your fat cow wife thinks of me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:42 am 
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Once a "discussion" turns into a pissing contest it helps no one.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:52 am 
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Let's try to keep the discussion away from personal attacks (name calling, Fuck-you's, telling someone they're sicker than others, etc.) Let's address what a person SAYS rather than who the person is. Thanks for the cooperation.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:35 pm 
Yeah i apologize for the comments hatmaker I just dont like being attacked and insulted for having a different opinion on 12 steps than someone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:10 am 
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[font=Verdana]Hey all. I am new here and very glad to have found this forum. I have been on sub therapy for just a couple of weeks, maybe 3? time flies when you're "sober."
I want to share my recent experience and frustration. I started attending NA meetings as soon as i started taking subs,every day. I got a sponsor, started working on the first step. I was so gung ho! I felt great! i was on the right path. well..the other day i talked with my sponsor for an hour. she gave me a wrting ssignment for my first step, we talked about strategy, recovery, how good it feels to be not using. also the frustration and the emotions, the anger, all the stuff that comes up. near the end of the conversation, i told her i was in sub therapy. big mistake. she said "you are still using. do me a favor, don't work on your steps."
she said i shouldn't share at meetings, don't even bother working the steps but iw as welcome to come and listen and that she would still be my sponsor and support me but that i am not really clean until i stop subs and can't get clean time or keychains.
she encouraged me to stop the subs and as i hadn't yet taken any for the day, i pledged not to and we got very happy happy, enthusiastic. i told her i would see her later at a meeting or call her.
the day went on, i started to feel a bit off. i had taken about 4 mgs the previous day, about 9:00 am and hadn't done an afternoon/evening dose.
anyway by 7 that night i started craving. i started to get pissed, felt like an outsider, felt rejected, vulnerable. she called to tell me the meeting location had changed, i didn't answer the phone but got a message. i can't explain how angry i was but some of you may understand the junkie mentality that seized me. i am just too new, to green to get through any temptation. she texted me to let me know that the meeting was back on at the original location, yadayada.
i texted her back that i didn't think NA was for me at this point and called my dealer because i realized that by this time it was nearly 36 hours since last dose and i could quite likely get high.
and i did.
spent the whole weekend and $400 i didn't have (go payday advance!) getting high.[/font]


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:20 am 
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Oh sage, I'm so sorry that happened to you! I hate to say it, but as you've noticed from reading this thread, your experience isn't that unusual. But you can get back on the horse and start again! So you slipped - it happens. Try to put it behind you and get back on your suboxone. (If you haven't already.) Once you've done that, you have the option of finding another 12-step meeting and simply don't share that you're on suboxone. That's what many people do. The medications you are on are between you and your doctor.

I'm glad you joined this forum and reached out to us. I think you'll find we're a very supportive bunch. I know you can make it past this bump in the road and start anew. You can do this! Keep posting and keep sharing. We're glad you're here.

Good luck getting back on suboxone.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:34 am 
Welcome to the forum Sagemama!!

Im glad you found this forum. It can be quite helpful!! I actually use this forum as my meeting and anything else i need. I am outraged and just flat out pissed off that this has happened to you. This may be wrong but, i would go an tell that sponsor thanks for the advice idiot, i just relapsed. I say that out of anger for your situation. Thats exactly what happens to people and its just wrong!! Dont feel bad about the relapse. It happens to the best of people. Its only a minor set back and as hat said, you can get right back goin with sub and move forward. If anything, it was a learning experience and thats the only thing i would consider it to be, an nothing more. Again i am very very sorry that happened to you and i hope you will get right back to taking sub. Stick around here also cuz its a really great place to share anything and everything thats on your mind. Welcome!!


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