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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Hello everyone,

I am new to the site and have been researching a lot of the posts and information provided here...it has been helpful but scary truthfully. I've been taking Suboxone for almost 4 years now, initially was on 40 mg/day but over the last 1 1/2 yrs have been steadily taking 4-8mgs/day. The side effects for me personally from being on Sub for as long as I have been have seriously deteriorated the quality of my daily life. Physcologically, physically & emotionally, I've become very withdrawn socially. The lack of energy each day has impacted my daily life so severely that I am truthfully fearful that even when I do stop Sub, I don't know that I will ever recover or be the same that I was once upon a time. I've done a lot of researching and discussions with my doctors, and I have come to learn that it isn't all in my head but that there is now evidence showing the damage caused by long term use of Sub, and many of the effects I have now and have had for quite some time. The lack of interest in life, the inability to feel attached to my emotions, the severe lack of physical energy...I battle with all of them and thensome each and every day and from what I understand, that even after quitting, it will take many years, and a lot of focused hard work in order to gain back the aspects of myself that I've seemed to have lost over the years.

I have decided that it is time for me to seriously prepare myself for taper and then stopping Suboxone, however, from my previous experiences that I've had when I've ran out of my Sub for one reason or another, just initial signs of withdrawal kicked in and they were so severe that I don't know if it'll be physically possible to ever come to a full and complete stop. I've never had to experience a full duration of withdrawal but even just the experience of the symptoms starting is enough to put me into a state of panic just thinking about it. So, I guess what I am asking is if there is anybody that is out there that has in fact successfully stopped the use of Sub and what their experiences have been since quitting? How long did the withdrawal symptoms last? How severe did they become? How is the quality of life improved since stopping, if at all? I hope that someone out there has been successful quitting and can share their experience with me....hopefully I can get the information that I need so that I can properly prepare myself for complete detox and then have the ability to start gaining back my life. I thank you in advance for any and all information, experiences, advice or comments.

Sincerely,
Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Let me start by saying this..and I say this with MUCH emphasis:

EVERY person is different. No two people react the same way to a drug, and that is why I'm saying this..because it's from MY point of view.

Here goes:

First thoughts that came to mind reading your post was "is he for real"...but don't take that personally. I've been on sub AS LONG AS you..and I don't experience ANY of that. I get up earlier/go to bed earlier..and that's really the only thing in my life that sub has had any effect on. I have plenty of energy..and I do an at-home computer repair business..which consistently keeps me running. In fact, I just walked in the door from a local gas station owner who had me install a security system in his business..People call me and I run out with no notice and stay gone working on their computer/or whatever for hours...there's no lack of energy or momentum in my life. I have PLENTY to keep me going...and this is just the business side of things. I'm a stay-home father, full-time.

Last week, on Monday, 2-27, we walked in the door after being at the hospital (AN HOUR AWAY FROM HOME) for 10 days. Now, I think this is a good time to reiterate, I've been on Suboxone for 4 years! And I'll now explain what that week of hospital admission required of us (my wife and I both)....

Newborn baby girl..rushed from the local hospital that's 15 minutes from home..up to an NICU unit one day after being born..because she was too early. First day..at the hospital (local) at 2:30am. Didn't even THINK about sleep until 11pm that night. I was up and down 4 times during the night, from 11pm until 5am...and at 5am I got up to stay up. The day wore on, and at 4pm I had a headache from lack of sleep/stress/worry...whatever. So I laid down and took a nap. We STILL had not held our baby girl, because she had to be kept in the nursery because of her breathing...she needed oxygen. So at 4pm, I took a nap, and at 7:30pm, I heard the voice of the pediatrician that was on-call (it was Saturday evening..).
He was telling my wife about needing to transport my daughter to a NICU, because they were afraid she would stop breathing if they didn't. So THAT happened...transported to a hospital that was 57 miles away.

And that is what started a week-long saga of NO SLEEP and worry/stress out the ass. EVERY single day, we MIGHT have gotten 4 hours of sleep..and still pushed on each day. I STILL took my Suboxone just as I had done over the years..without ANY problem. The only thing that Suboxone DID do was help with my headaches..and it made it to where I could sit down and nap easily without really "trying" to nap.

From that Saturday night (2-18) until that Monday when we came home (2-27)..we faced nothing but hell...driving against Birmingham, AL rush hour traffic nearly every day...JUST DRIVING all those miles every day, especially when you're the proud owner of a 2001 Ford Expedition...but not just ANY Expedition...a 4x4 Expedition with a 5.7L V8 that gets about 15mpg. It was averaging $40-$50 per day in gas, and that's JUST if we went TO the hospital, went to eat, and came home. This is why we slept in chairs in the babies NICU room for 4 of the 8 nights we were there.

That's mostly personal details that are somewhat irrelevant..but I say that because even with all of that...I had NO trouble with energy..no trouble with having motivation...and on top of that, for the past TWO YEARS...I'm the guy that goes to bed by 7pm each night. Of course, if I have something to do, I don't change my life to get in bed by 7pm..but normally when I'm home and there's nothing going on..I'm going to bed when the sun goes down. So imagine having your lifestyle become used to being in bed asleep by 7pm..then suddenly you're yanked up and you go from sleeping like that...to sleeping every other day or hardly any at all...

That's why I ask myself if you were for real..because after doing what I've done with Suboxone..and going through the life events that I've gone through (not just the baby..that was just the most recent)...I don't have those problems..

I also don't look at JUST Suboxone as being something that has affected my lifestyle in a negative manner (actually I DO NOT put suboxone in the negative column at all)...but I look at ALL the years that I abused opiates as being something that has done damage to me. I look at my treatment as a positive impact on my life..I don't look at my current situation as a problem or something that causes me harm. All to often people forget the years of abuse they have done to their bodies, and they want to blame the couple of years in treatment as the root cause of all of their problems. If you can't remember what regular life was like before opiates..how can you really say that suboxone is the cause of any problems?

Another issue I have..most addicts (myself included) don't have ANY DAMN CLUE what long-term means. Long-term for some people means less than 5 years. Long-term for some means only what you can remember...and with opiate abuse..that's VERY DAMN LITTLE. So how can you say something is a long-term effect when you can't remember your lifestyle even 10 years ago? I hate to come across as the asshole..but I see SO many people who are looking to blame Suboxone for problems that they had going on during active addiction..they just can't REMEMBER it as a problem during addiction because they were TOO HIGH TO NOTICE THEN. Suddenly when they get clean and actually HAVE A MEMORY AGAIN...they think Suboxone is where it ALL started.

YMMV.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:34 pm 
Thank you Jonathan, for another long self-centered novel that doesn't address any of the OPs questions.

OP, I suggest you do a long, slow taper. You can find a lot of threads on the best way to do it. Someone named Diary of a Quitter did a great liquid taper thread. I'm finally stabilized at .5/day and am hesitant to drop again because of the emotional imbalance that comes with tapering for me. The best way is to taper below .25, and then start skipping days.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:38 pm 
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You go straight to hell.


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 Post subject: REPLY FROM SLIPPER
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:06 pm 
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jonathanm1978 wrote:
You go straight to hell.




I do not mean to be cruel..but I have to agree with Jonathanm1978....If you (the op) need to taper there are a lot of good sites here where people have done it successfully and written about it.....but Ialso see so much on the forum about people having all these side effects from sub. I do not feel as if these people are lying...but I have to say that sub. saved my life and quite frankly I do not know what I would do without it. After 29 years of polysubstance abuse and absolute hell, I
finally found something that worked for me and that was sub. It has taken away all my cravings for drugs and given me
my life back..and the only side effect I have is constipation which I always had on hydros...and that is easy to take care of with a little stool softener.

I would go to treatment centers because I got caught, or simply ran out with no other choice, but the whole time I was in
those centers I knew I could not get off my opiates. Each night I would pray to God to help me quit and the next day be right back out there hunting my hydrocodone...Then I just began to pray to become WILLING to want to quit..Iwent to AA and NA and counselors and the whole deal and nothing could help me get off drugs. Then somebody told me about a pill......and thank God I went to see a sub doctor. I know this is my novel as well. but I don't understand all these people downing bup and getting on it and then wanting to taper off in 6 mo or so...I have been on it two years and I am nowhere near the point of getting off...I like my life now...I don't have to drug seek every damn day I wake up..and have all the other worries that go along with addiction. I wish we could hear more good stories about how bup helped people on this forum...I don't care how long I have to be on this drug...as long as it takes which may be forever....I just don't worry about it...

and to the op...sometimes you have to fight the feelings of anxiety, loneliness, fear, withdrawal from society, low energy..
I have had to make myself get up and get out of the house..join a zumba class...go to things with my husband...and after I get out and do stuff I feel so much better when I get back home...You might try some of these things. I wish you the best, and I know we are all different...but I feel bup is the only answer to most addicts...just look at the statistics of people in treatment centers, AA and the like...

Sorry to put so much of my self into your post...but I do hope you try to fight your depression and good luck to you.

Slipper


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Thanks slipper for that..

You actually read my post. That other "person", for lack of better words, DID NOT. He calls everything that's longer than 3 lines a novel.

I feel the same as you. If I HAVE to stay on Sub the rest of my life, then it's WELL WORTH IT if I don't ever have to live like I did in ACTIVE addiction.

AT LEAST I'm not SUB-stituting one drug for another..like Kratom for instance...and trying to chase a high because I like the way it makes me feel. I don't like the way suboxone makes me feel..I like the way I feel when I'm NORMAL...and SUBOXONE gives me that. Other "drugs" do NOT.

There's a difference in being "high" and being CLEAN. Some just can't see that..those are the ones who have problems with denial...and what recovery REALLY is.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:20 pm 
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I read your post and i can not tell you the relief i feel right now. I was on suboxon for four years as well and I HAD ALL THREE OF THOSE SIDE EFFECTS DOWN TO A TEE! And i alway knew it was suboxone bu you just bcked up my believes and i can now state for a fact suboxone was the true cause of the worst four years of my life. And trust me you are not the only one on this forum who feels the same way or has had at least one of these sideeffects. And are now doing better since stopping suboxone or just lowering there dose has even helped. There are going to be alot of people who will get upset or angry but the truth of the matter this is a serios problem and people need to be aware of these problems. If i knew half of the stuff i do now about suboxone i would of never even considerd it.


But there is hope i am now off suboxone and switched to methadone for better pain control. And just about all of those side effects went away after a couple months. You can read my thred my switch in the methadone section and there is alot of posts about that.

As of tapering your best bet is to do a long full taper to get u down to da lowest dose possible so when u do make that finl jump it will be as esy as its going to get.

Everything said in my post is my personal believe. I am not saying this to offend,argue or debate but simply stating i have also dealt with these same issues.

PS
I can state for a fact i didnt have any of these side effects or issues during active addiction or even before that growing up.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:52 pm 
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markb0707 wrote:
Hello everyone,

I am new to the site and have been researching a lot of the posts and information provided here...it has been helpful but scary truthfully. I've been taking Suboxone for almost 4 years now, initially was on 40 mg/day but over the last 1 1/2 yrs have been steadily taking 4-8mgs/day. The side effects for me personally from being on Sub for as long as I have been have seriously deteriorated the quality of my daily life. Physcologically, physically & emotionally, I've become very withdrawn socially. The lack of energy each day has impacted my daily life so severely that I am truthfully fearful that even when I do stop Sub, I don't know that I will ever recover or be the same that I was once upon a time. I've done a lot of researching and discussions with my doctors, and I have come to learn that it isn't all in my head but that there is now evidence showing the damage caused by long term use of Sub, and many of the effects I have now and have had for quite some time. The lack of interest in life, the inability to feel attached to my emotions, the severe lack of physical energy...I battle with all of them and thensome each and every day and from what I understand, that even after quitting, it will take many years, and a lot of focused hard work in order to gain back the aspects of myself that I've seemed to have lost over the years.

I have decided that it is time for me to seriously prepare myself for taper and then stopping Suboxone, however, from my previous experiences that I've had when I've ran out of my Sub for one reason or another, just initial signs of withdrawal kicked in and they were so severe that I don't know if it'll be physically possible to ever come to a full and complete stop. I've never had to experience a full duration of withdrawal but even just the experience of the symptoms starting is enough to put me into a state of panic just thinking about it. So, I guess what I am asking is if there is anybody that is out there that has in fact successfully stopped the use of Sub and what their experiences have been since quitting? How long did the withdrawal symptoms last? How severe did they become? How is the quality of life improved since stopping, if at all? I hope that someone out there has been successful quitting and can share their experience with me....hopefully I can get the information that I need so that I can properly prepare myself for complete detox and then have the ability to start gaining back my life. I thank you in advance for any and all information, experiences, advice or comments.

Sincerely,
Mark


Hi, Mark. I identify with what you wrote and experienced many of the same side effects. Some people do need to take Sub forever and some people don't experience or don't notice significant side effects. That wasn't the case for me, and it sounds like it's not the case for you either. It's a personal call, and I don't understand why people get so defensive when Suboxone is not working out for somebody else. Makes no sense!

The good news is that you can stop. I stopped after almost 6 full years on Sub and I've been off for nearly seven months. I spent one year tapering off it and went from 8 mg down to 1/16 mg. There were periods during my taper that were fairly tough and the lower doses were absolutely a challenge. However, now that I've done it, I feel confident in promising you that it is possible. The worst part about it is the fear that you won't be able to do it. If you just stick with a gradual taper, you will eventually succeed. It's important to taper low if you don't want a difficult jump. My jump was a piece of cake.

I'm amazed at just how different I feel off Suboxone, and stopping it was certainly the best thing for me. I used to be in bed very early every night and slept a long time. Not anymore. I'm averaging about half as much sleep as I was getting on Sub but feel just as rested. Actually, those long nights of sound sleep may be the one thing I miss about Suboxone. :D At this point though, I typically choose to DO something, rather than go to bed.

On Suboxone, I fell into a very lame and lonely kind of life, but I didn't care. I didn't feel like going out and experiencing life or making friends/maintaining friendships. I was just very 'blah'. My life at this moment is so different that it's pretty crazy. I'm out and participating, volunteering, having fun. I have so many new friends. The coolest things are the small things, like noticing how much my creativity has come back. I don't know...life is just a whole lot fuller and brighter.

I do think I have a ways to go to be 100% out of the woods. I have some lingering effects from the Sub. I also feel more than a little bit traumatized from the whole thing. I don't really remember a whole lot of what happened when I was on Sub and I don't connect with the person I was either. I really can't tell anyone what I was doing or thinking, and I didn't have that passion for life that makes living fun. Of course, I can remember things but it's fuzzy. I didn't get super happy or excited or sad about as many things, and I think that's why I didn't form as many clear memories. I was kinda just going through the motions much of the time. It's almost like there is a big gap in my life and it makes me sad, because you can never get time back once it's gone. I do regret that I didn't stop Suboxone a whole lot sooner, but I had no idea Suboxone could be behind so much of what I was experiencing. On the other hand, I could have spent another 6 years on Sub....I actually decided to stop because the drive to the doctor was so insane and I couldn't imagine doing it 'forever'. The fact that my brain has sparked back to life is the happy (but unexpected) ending.

Good luck, Mark!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Saying that you are asking yourself if this guy is for real seems very insulting to me. ESPECIALLY right after you just said yourself, "EVERY person is different. No two people react the same way to a drug." Those two statements seem to contradict themselves.

And I, for one, don't have any problem remembering what I did and when I did it during my opiate abuse. Or during any of my abuse of the many drugs I did for that matter (with exception of blacking out on alcohol). I am very clear on the good, the bad, and the ugly during my entire 20 year addiction. I don't recall markb stating that he had any problems with remembering life before either...so I don't really understand where your last statement came from in regard to this topic.

I think we all need to be able to state the positives and the negatives of what this medicine does to us without feeling like we might be insulted by another person who thinks that he/she has the right to disregard these concerns and make the assumption that it is the past drug use that is causing current symptoms and not the sub, or that we are not taking it right, or we don't know what we are talking about, etc. It's fine to suggest that, but there is such a thing as stating it in a non-abrasive manner. And it's strange that the only person I've seen behave this way is the one person complaining that other people are doing it. Like on the Kratom thread...oh, I won't even go there and open up that can of worms. I just don't know why if someone is so bothered by a thread, why spend so much time constantly replying to every post with such anger and hostility? Just ignore the thread, let it go, and move one...geeesh!

I don't understand why people get so defensive when sub is not working as well for others either. Some people get so offended and all worked up in a tizzy because everyone isn't experiencing the same relief that sub gave to them. I think they should just feel lucky that the sub does work for them without a ton of side effects, and try to have empathy for those who aren't so lucky, and not belittle them. No need to insinuate that they are ridiculous or do not know what they are talking about, or that it is caused by some other drug, or WHATEVER. While past drug use or present additional drug use COULD be the case, it also MIGHT NOT be the case. The person taking it is the only one who can really answer that. And I'm sure sub IS the single reason for a lot of symptoms for some people who are experiencing these side effects.

I know for a fact that sub is the reason for a couple of side effects I am having, and not due to my past drug use, because these things have never happened to me in my life, even when I quit any of my other drugs for any period of time. And sub is the only drug I am on right now. No one can tell me any different because they are not in my body and are not experiencing what I am.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Hey Mark,

Welcome to the forum, sorry your thread kinda went sideways, this kinda thing usually doesn't happen, but hey, we're a bunch of addicts here so you never know WTH is gonna happen!! :lol:

I understand where you're coming from. After a few years on Suboxone, I started noticing more and more things about me and my life that I just wasn't happy with, many of the same things you mentioned, but not quite as extreme. At some point in my recovery, the negatives associated with being on Suboxone outweighed the positives and I decided to quit.

I'm glad you're prepared for a good long taper because, IMO, that's the best way to get off of Suboxone. Like we've told many others here, your taper should be suited to YOU, no one else, just YOU. You go as slow as you need. We usually recommend dropping your dose by about 25% while you're above 4mg, then drop your dose by about 10% when under 4mg. Most people find these dose drops very manageable. Then, the important thing is to stabilize at that new dose. It may take a week for you to stabilize, it may take a month. You may do several drops where you stabilize after a week then your next drop may take you 2 months to stabilize. Again, do YOUR taper, listen to your body. Tapering is THEE best way to minimize wd.

As far as never feeling well again once you get off of Suboxone, I had those very same misgivings and they scared the living crap right out of me, but I got better. Slowly, I got better. By tapering, you should notice that you don't have to wait years to get better, you'll be "getting better" every time you drop your dose, you'll be re-teaching your brain how to live with less and less opiates and that sounds like your goal.

Please feel free to ask any other questions you have.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Nothing like a few posts to get things crossed or misconstrued.

I never said ANYONE was wrong because of what THEY feel on suboxone. I said I HAVE NEVER HAD THAT.

AND...

I SAID there could be other reasons for having those problems/issues. People automatically blame 3 months of suboxone on every problem they have, when they've just spent 5 years chasing pills and eating every opiate known to man..as quickly as they could gobble them down.

All you gotta do is scroll up and read more than the first line.

It would be different if I had 3 weeks on Suboxone and I was trying to chime in. But I got 4 years...the SAME amount as OP.

Forgive me for thinking I had room to talk..I'll say something about this again when I have 20+ years..because otherwise I'm OBVIOUSLY just typing letters and not being factual.
Oh, and I'm posting novels.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Welcome Mark, so happy you are reaching out. It is often the first step. I am on suboxone. I am tapering curently. I started on 16 + mg May 17 2011. I am now down to .125 mg. I started my taper close to 6 months ago. It is a long process, but I believe if you WANT to get off sub, YOU CAN! All ya gotta do is begin to taper. Like Romeo said, start by reducing your total amount of sub by 25 %. It may seem like a lot because you are on 32 mg. If it is too much, drop but only 10 %. Are you dosing once daily? I think you have gotten some good advise here. Both Romeo and Laddertipper have completed a successful taper and both their experiences are very different however the end result: Being off of suboxone. (I aim to be there soon as well) So all in all, I believe that you can do this and you will have lots and lots of support here. Have a beautiful day


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:22 pm 
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NoAlibi wrote:
Thank you Jonathan, for another long self-centered novel that doesn't address any of the OPs questions...


NoAlibi -

Enough! You have risen to the point of personal attacks. Disagree with someone about what they say or think or theorize, but don't disrespect or insult the INDIVIDUAL because of it. And that's what you are doing. Consider this a warning and a reminder to everyone.

This is a support forum. There's little to no reason to even mention another member when posting your support. Think about that before even bringing up another member's name.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this over and over and over.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:58 pm 
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I agree with jonathanM and everyone! Obviously Sub is not working out for Mark. Nobody can expect a drug to work for everyone. Maybe Mark's addiction wasn't as rough as most, so the side-effects of Sub may be worse for him than his actual addiction. In that case, being disappointed in Sub is totally justifiable.

If the negatives of being on sub outweigh the benefits for someone, then of course it makes sense to get off it. But before making any decisions, the increased risk of relapse by stopping Sub should be taken into consideration. How much it will increase risk depends highly on the individual.

laddertipper wrote:
It's a personal call, and I don't understand why people get so defensive when Suboxone is not working out for somebody else. Makes no sense!


That does happen around here a bit. Still don't really know why.

Quote:
I also feel more than a little bit traumatized from the whole thing. I don't really remember a whole lot of what happened when I was on Sub and I don't connect with the person I was either. I really can't tell anyone what I was doing or thinking, and I didn't have that passion for life that makes living fun. Of course, I can remember things but it's fuzzy. I didn't get super happy or excited or sad about as many things, and I think that's why I didn't form as many clear memories.
laddertipper


This isn't an effect of Sub so much as all opioids. And heaps of psychotropic drugs for that matter. When I'd jump off maintenance in the past, all the memories of what happened would be like a blur, or almost like they didn't happen! Same goes with using. And the really frustrating thing is, after a relapse, all the memories before the relapse would blur as well. IMO we do have a lot of memories from when we're on opioids, only we can't access them as well when we're straight. They're like two different filing cabinets.

As for not connecting with the person you were. Just a couple of weeks ago someone came in here saying they thought their girlfriend on Sub was the love of their life... then broke up with them after they went off Sub because they felt like a different person.

The last time I jumped off Sub I'd moved back to my home city while I was on it. And only after I'd detoxed off Sub did I finally feel like I'd actually returned? Like before I was somewhere else.

But also, a lot of the stuff you said about sub sounds like the kinda things any recovering addict tries to remember, in order to stay motivated to stay off it. When I walk past a group of smokers now, I think "god what a bunch of losers, they stink are unfit, ugly and they're gunna die". "When I was one of them, I could barely run 100m and I coughed up green goop every day". I think that to help me stay motivated to stay off the smokes.

Surely these problems weren't AS bad, or AS traumatic as your using?

Do you believe Sub served a purpose in your life at all? Or do you regret taking it at all?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:32 am 
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Whoa. This wasn't exactly what I was anticipating and/or in search of BUT thank you everyone for your replies to my post, its appreciated greatly. For those of you that have had very successful and unremarkable experiences while taking Sub, I am very happy to hear that...that is incredible, you are very fortunate. There seemingly is some misinterpretation of what my post was all about....I was in no way knocking or trying to discredit Suboxone in any way. I am thankful that I've had the opportunity to obtain sobriety and to stay that way for so long and I give full credit to the medicine for making it possible however as with any medication, there is side effects, some people experience them severely while others have none...it is dependent on the persons biology. I am an RN, and I have done extensive research pertaining to substance abuse and to the specifics of Suboxone and its impact on the human body, and I am undoubtebly suffering from side effects that are being cause strictly from the Sub. I've had it confirmed by several physicians, all of them being very well educated in the specifics of Suboxone Treatment. To give a little more background about myself....I wasn't introduced to opiates due to abuse or was I ever in search of obtaining a "high", I've always been very blessed in that sense that I've fortunately never had a desire to seek for that feeling of euphoria that opiates provide initially.....for that I am very grateful, and I realize I'm very fortunate in that, as I know that's more than half the battle. I became physically dependent upon opiates due to the fact that at 29 years old I was diagnosed with 3rd stage renal cell carcinoma in the one & only kidney that I have. So a nephrectomy was not an option at the time, so I was placed onto a regimen of chemotherapy & radiation. Once the effects of the treatment began getting to a point of being physically unbearable, I was prescribed an opiate cocktail that I had to take in order to control the physical pain. As with all opiates, after some time of being on the pain meds, my body began to become tolerant and the changes in administering were no longer working, my Oncologists began increasing both the dosages and the volume of the meds so that they would remain effective. The end result however was that I became physically dependent and in need of the opiates, even after all my cancer treatment was completed, so I was reffered to a pain clinic where there was specialized physicans who researched and treated opiate & chemical dependency caused by cancer treatments, and 3 of them specialized in dealing with Suboxone. So I began the treatment, and I am and I am still very grateful to have been given the opportunity to use Sub, as it has been the primary reason that I have been able to be clean for almost 4 years. Without it, I can't say that I wouldn't still be using. As for whether or not 4 years is considered "long term" or not? Medically speaking...4 years of constant continued use of ANY medication or substance is considered long term. Any med taken consistently for over a duration of 1 year, is considered as such. Personally speaking though.....having never "abused" opiates for a long duration of time, as well as never really doing any type of drugs for that matter, except when a teenager trying things out, aside from my daily vitamins, I've never taken anything for a long period of time, so 4 years of my life has been like an eternity.I am just seeking out others that have had my same experiences and have now come to being completelyt independent of Sub and find out the ways in which they succeeded and just how life has been since stopping. I'm not intending to offend anyone or to argue with whether or not this type of treatment is bad or good, just to state my experience and factual information is all.what does make me uneasy however is the idea of excessive long term use and "life long" dependency on Suboxone. The chemical properties in Sub can and will cause biological damage, just as any opiate does, that's not my personal opinion, it is scientific fact. Ipersonally have already dealt with losing 2 people who I had been in a therapy group with dying from effects caused by Suboxone....one dies of liver failure while the other stopped breathing during his sleep. But like I said, I am not wanting to debate or cause friction, butstatements supporting life long use of Sub is an unnerving prospect. God bless everyone in your recovery, I hope you all stay healthy and sober. Thanks again for all of your feedback.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:26 am 
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Glad to see you took the point that I made positively, instead of using what I was saying to belittle or discredit me. Lots of times when people complain about Suboxone, it IS baseless..because their chief complaints are things like "I don't feel anything" or "I read where some people on suboxone have _______ and I think I'm going to have _______ too"...

I'm sure the people who were rude and disrespectful will eventually weed themselves out..they always do, in every forum that I've been on and had the pleasure of being a staff member, normally we had the opportunity to watch people who had little/no respect for others escort themselves out the door...and I'm relatively sure the same can be said here...

And obviously you understood what I was saying, unlike some who either didn't read it, or just can't comprehend all those words..I'm not sure which of the two it is, but for someone to call a post "a novel" and say it's self-centered...well on a site for addiction recovery, the obvious thing to be discussed is OUR OWN experiences..so most of the posts are going to be centered around one's own life experience. That's one of those "duh" moments...

Anyway...I hate that you've had problems with the Suboxone. Just as I said in my first post, no two people react to a drug in the same way...which is why I said that it was so shocking for me to see someone have this many problems with Suboxone...because of the fact that I do SO WELL with taking it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:54 am 
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markb0707 wrote:
The chemical properties in Sub can and will cause biological damage, just as any opiate does, that's not my personal opinion, it is scientific fact..


That's the first I've heard of that. I try to keep up to date with that kinda research, and as far as I know there is no scientific evidence that buprenorphine is neurotoxic. Do you have any citations / links? I just find it really interesting, because one of my qualms with the Sub industry is the complete lack of research into its long-term effects. I'd really like you to point me in the direction of these studies you're talking about because I've been looking for such studies for a while now.

BUT I'm not doubting at all that it may be neurotoxic in some way - as other opioids have been found to be, there's no reason why buprenorphine would be different. But what psychotropic drug doesn't alter the brain permanently in some way?

These days I conceded that life is neurotoxic - one big journey of accumulated brain damage until we're wearing nappies. But I digress.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:24 pm 
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I too would like to read up on that...

I'm not saying that you're not experienced in the field, mark, as obviously you being in the medical field gives reason to believe that you know your stuff, but is this statement about the neurotoxicity an educated guess based on what you know, or a factual piece of evidence that you can back up with some reading material, as I'm sure MANY of us here would be interesting in learning more on this topic (like exactly HOW much toxicity or damage is done versus time..higher dose = more, doses spread out = less likelihood...etc)

I know I'll be watching to see because I'm a long-term user of suboxone, mostly now for pain management reasons than anything else..but I do have other reasons for staying on Suboxone besides strictly pain.

Opiates (full opiates) altered my way of life, altered me, my attitude and everything about me as a whole..and changed my personality completely to be opposite of "normal"...
Suboxone doesn't/hasn't done that and this is why I'd prefer it over any type of full opiate...but I'm open to reading material as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Oh boy this is all to familiar on this forum. One negative thing said about suboxone and you have people defend it as if someone said a your momma joke!


Thats my only dislike of this forum is sum members cant act like adults if the miracle drug is not worshipped!!!!!!!!!!

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Yes these drugs saved our life's. But does that mean we have to give the rest of our life to these drugs?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Thank you


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