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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:31 am 
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Holy Smokes Mark, you've already tapered down to 2mg.....Awesome!! With regards to Suboxone, many on this forum have said that less is more. Some of us were on fairly high doses of Suboxone and only when we got our dose down did we realize how much better we felt.

Now that you're at 2mg, you may find your mind/body puts up a little more of a fight when you drop your dose again. If this happens, just decrease the size of your drop. The key to avoiding a lot of wd is to remove the opiate from your system by just enough to where your body doesn't really realize it, then make sure you stablize at that new dose before dropping again.

I'm glad you're feeling better at your new dose, that's encouraging to hear.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:24 am 
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I'm sorry that your thread when off the rails, but when any thread requires moderation (like tearjerker said about backing up an alleged "factual" statement) - and this thread needed it - it's our RESPONSIBILITY to step in and ensure that the rules are followed and that this forum is presenting ACCURATE INFORMATION. And so I did my job and stepped in. I'm sorry if that upsets anyone, but all forums require moderation and without it, well, Dr. Junig wouldn't have anything left of his forum because craziness would ensue.

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 Post subject: ......
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Tear,

Coming from a childhood that was filled with drug abuse, addiction and eventually the death of my mother when I was 14 years old, I understand fully where it is that you are coming from. As far as my doctors are concerned, we have been through all the questioning and talking where I had scepticism but once they proved to me just exactly how experienced and educated they were, I came to trust them fullly. No, I never "abused" opiates in the traditional sense of the word. I was placed on several opiates as a means of controlling pain while going through some heavy duty chemo * radiation treatment for cancer. As I am sure you know, after a long exposure to opiates, a couple things happen....1. Your body becomes dependent 2. The brain becomes tolerant, and the good effects of pain control become less effective. So after time in order to stay on top of my pain management the dosages were increased as well as the volume.

Once treatment was done for the cancer, I was left with a huge addiction and dependency on the opiates, which occurs pretty often in patients receiving long term pain management with opiates, I do believe that's common knowledge, if not I can definately post some links backing that up. Being referred to an inpatient detox center was not an option for me due to my lifestyle, having children and my career, so the next best option was being referred to a group of physicians who specialized in long term outpatient detoxification, and that's when I was introduced to Bup, thank God. I thought initially that treatment would only be for a short time but unfortunately I am not as strong as I thought I was, and when we attempted tapering, the w/d were way too much for me to handle, so my doctors gave me the option of remaining on Sub for as long as I need and when the time came we could begin tapering. Here I am 4 years later still dependent....with life stressors and such there just hasn't been an ideal time in where I have felt confident in being successful, but with all the side effects I've been experiencing, I am not really left with much of a choice in needing to finally taper and stop, which is why I searched this forum out. And here I am.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Wow us addicts in recovery love drama!


This was my main point about my only dislike with this forum. You say one negative thing about the supposed miracle drug the thread turns into a war zones. Can i state that the long term side effects are fact no but i can say that the long term side effects i got from suboxone ruined four years of my life and i wish i knew than what i know now.

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 Post subject: Re: NoAlibi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:25 pm 
markb0707 wrote:
Well...according to my experience here, I think you may be one of the very few otherwise 90% of the posts responding to mine would have any purpose or cause, am I wrong about that? What seemingly has been within every post, is a sense of highly passionate debates that there are people who are taking Sub, or were on it extensively and at no time ever did they experience any effects from Sub AT ALL. It is obvious that when discussing OTHER opiates it is pretty common knowledge that they impact the body in a negative manner...nobody has seemed to debate that little piece of the pie, yet Bup, does NOT, CANNOT, AND WILL NOT have negative effects when used long term because it doesn't state so on a piece of paper, or pardon me, a "link." I personally am just quite intrigued at this idea...and I've been trying to find where it states that the OPiOID in Sub is an all new miraculous opiate that is completely different than all the rest of them? Still haven't found it unfortunately... ; )


Mark, I really have no idea why some people on this board would rather glorify Subz than talk real shit about em. You would have to ask them individually, I suppose.

I don't see why daily use of Sub (at a controlled dose, the way someone prescribed painkillers who is not abusing them would use them) would be any different from daily use of a low dose full agonist. My impression of those that would disagree with this statement is that they are probably engaging in a bit of wishful thinking, eh?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Hey Mark,
I'm glad to hear you're feeling better at 2 mg. My experience with Sub was similar to yours, although I was only on it for a little over 2 years and my max dose was 16 mg. From what I recall the first year was really good, but the 2nd year I started to feel much the way you described. I was sleeping 12 hours a day, I had zero motivation, my emotional state was pretty flat and I just pretty much lost interest in things that I had cared about before. Also, I was having memory problems and other cognitive issues. MY interpretation of MY experience is that it was the Sub.

I tapered down to 2 mg pretty easily, and then I found I couldn't stick to my taper because at the lower doses I could take more and get an effect from it. Long story short I went up and down, on and off of Sub for about 3 months until I finally went off for good in December. The physical WDs weren't too bad, but I went through about 3 solid weeks of having ZERO energy, not sleeping well, and being very depressed and discouraged. Because i had tried and failed to go off Sub before i started attending NA this time around. I can honestly say that the support and having people tell me that i could do it and that i was going to be OK is what made all the difference for me. Left to my own devices i probably would have caved and gone back on Sub during those first weeks. At the end of 3 weeks I started having some good days and over time the good days became more and more frequent.

Like others have said, I started FEELING again, started loving music again and started smiling more, even though facing life without opiates could be (and can be) very painful for me at times. I guess the point of all this is that even though it's been less than 90 days I do feel like I'm getting back to normal. I truly thought I was permanently damaged, not just because of the Sub but because off all the other drugs I had done as well. But I guess the body and mind have an amazing ability to heal.

I thought I would be facing a year of PAWS, but really the only thing I'm dealing with is low energy (which has to be due partly to how out of shape I got during my time of having NO motivation on Sub), and my internal thermostat is f*cked, but I can live with that.

The bigger issue for me is that I do have the desire to use opiates now, and "life on life's terms" can be very challenging without that buffer of Sub between me and the world.

I hope this isn't all TMI, but I guess what I really wanted to get across was that I identify with how you felt on Sub, and I too, thought I was permanently damaged. But with only less than 90 days off I feel like I'm getting back to normal. Also, I was terrified of the process of GOING off, but you CAN get through it. It will really suck for about 2+ weeks (or less if you taper down more), but if you persevere you WILL recover.
I wish the best to you,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Lilly~ congrats on getting off! It is good to see you on here. I don't post all that much but read a lot. You are always are so supporitive of others. I'm glad you have found some support with NA too!

NoAliby~ the purpose of this message board is not to "talk shit" about subs. It is here to support people who have chosen subs, or any recovery type for that matter. And being on daily sub IS different than being on a full agonist.....(at least at doses above the ceiling). Your tolerance to sub will not increase. You don't need to keep taking more and more sub to achieve the desired effect. Most people taking full agonists will have to increase their doses over time....just like Mark was talking about. That is why sub is a good choice for opiate replacement treatment.

Mark~keep up the good work. Just take it slow and you should be fine! I have a question for ya.....is it legal in your state to work as an RN while taking suboxone? I m in wa state and it is ok here..... take care!


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 Post subject: Lily
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Hi Lily,

First and foremost, CONGRATULATIONS on your almost 90 days of independence, that's incredible. Good for you. Thank you for sharing your story and your journey with me, I really do appreciate and value it very much...even just the smallest of encouragement makes such an impact on my determination and mind set. The effects of sub use for you is pretty much identical to mine...the last 2 years have probably been the worst for me though. On one hand, I am functional, in the sense that I am not intoxicated, but on the other, it is very very basic functioning. I wish for you continued success and a healthy future, thank you again for sharing.

Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:11 pm 
Orange doll wrote:
Lilly~ congrats on getting off! It is good to see you on here. I don't post all that much but read a lot. You are always are so supporitive of others. I'm glad you have found some support with NA too!

NoAliby~ the purpose of this message board is not to "talk shit" about subs. It is here to support people who have chosen subs, or any recovery type for that matter. And being on daily sub IS different than being on a full agonist.....(at least at doses above the ceiling). Your tolerance to sub will not increase. You don't need to keep taking more and more sub to achieve the desired effect. Most people taking full agonists will have to increase their doses over time....just like Mark was talking about. That is why sub is a good choice for opiate replacement treatment.

Mark~keep up the good work. Just take it slow and you should be fine! I have a question for ya.....is it legal in your state to work as an RN while taking suboxone? I m in wa state and it is ok here..... take care!


If you're going to use my name with quotation marks, please attribute what I actually said, which was not "talk shit" about Subz, but "talk REAL shit." That one word changes the meaning of the sentence.

You said that being on Sub is different from being on a full-agonist, and it is. I didn't say it wasn't. What I said was that I can't imagine that there would be any less brain damage on Sub than there would be for someone on a daily stable low dose of a full-agonist.

I feel like you are trying to start a fight with me by misrepresenting what I said. Maybe not, maybe you just misunderstood. I will happily give you the benefit of the doubt.


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 Post subject: How is it going
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Mark,

I sent you a PM.

I read that you went ahead and dropped to 2mg, how many days has it been and how are you feeling at this point. You said you were great so I wanted to see how it was now.

I'd like to share my part of dropping from 4mg to 2mg. I had a tough time after some time ( I don't even want to say how many days if you are doing well) I know sometimes if someone tells you good or bad we addicts can feed into that really easy. I personally am taking it a bit slower but have talked to several people who went to 2mg and did fine. I really honestly think it matters how much you had been on and for how long. Since I was at 32mg for five years straight, my physician and the research I have done points toward that being part of the problem. Suboxone builds up on your receptors so you just keep having more and more clinging there, of course you max out sometime, not sure when. But the bigger and longer the dose, the worse and more drawn out the hell of withdraw will be.

My husband is coming home this weekend, I have not seem him since January 2nd and I really don't want to be sick when he gets here but I am sticking to the taper or 3mg, we will see.

I hope everyone else posting is doing well, we can all help each other and be support team, lord I need it, I am scared shitless.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:21 am 
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Lillyval wrote:
Hey Mark,
I'm glad to hear you're feeling better at 2 mg. My experience with Sub was similar to yours, although I was only on it for a little over 2 years and my max dose was 16 mg. From what I recall the first year was really good, but the 2nd year I started to feel much the way you described. I was sleeping 12 hours a day, I had zero motivation, my emotional state was pretty flat and I just pretty much lost interest in things that I had cared about before. Also, I was having memory problems and other cognitive issues. MY interpretation of MY experience is that it was the Sub.

I tapered down to 2 mg pretty easily, and then I found I couldn't stick to my taper because at the lower doses I could take more and get an effect from it. Long story short I went up and down, on and off of Sub for about 3 months until I finally went off for good in December. The physical WDs weren't too bad, but I went through about 3 solid weeks of having ZERO energy, not sleeping well, and being very depressed and discouraged. Because i had tried and failed to go off Sub before i started attending NA this time around. I can honestly say that the support and having people tell me that i could do it and that i was going to be OK is what made all the difference for me. Left to my own devices i probably would have caved and gone back on Sub during those first weeks. At the end of 3 weeks I started having some good days and over time the good days became more and more frequent.

Like others have said, I started FEELING again, started loving music again and started smiling more, even though facing life without opiates could be (and can be) very painful for me at times. I guess the point of all this is that even though it's been less than 90 days I do feel like I'm getting back to normal. I truly thought I was permanently damaged, not just because of the Sub but because off all the other drugs I had done as well. But I guess the body and mind have an amazing ability to heal.

I thought I would be facing a year of PAWS, but really the only thing I'm dealing with is low energy (which has to be due partly to how out of shape I got during my time of having NO motivation on Sub), and my internal thermostat is f*cked, but I can live with that.

The bigger issue for me is that I do have the desire to use opiates now, and "life on life's terms" can be very challenging without that buffer of Sub between me and the world.

I hope this isn't all TMI, but I guess what I really wanted to get across was that I identify with how you felt on Sub, and I too, thought I was permanently damaged. But with only less than 90 days off I feel like I'm getting back to normal. Also, I was terrified of the process of GOING off, but you CAN get through it. It will really suck for about 2+ weeks (or less if you taper down more), but if you persevere you WILL recover.
I wish the best to you,
Lilly


Wow, Lilly...I am so happy for you and proud of you. You did it!! Fantastic job. If you are anything like me, it will just keep getting better and better. I'm floored at how great I feel the further out I get. It's better than any silver lining or icing on the cake. Every little chill and sneeze and anxious moment was worth it many times over to feel as connected and a part of the world as I do now. I love this new way of being. Best of luck to you. I believe you will be impressed by how much better you truly will feel, physically and mentally.

LT

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:29 am 
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Congratulations Lilly! That is a huge achievement. 90 days is a great milestone as well. It goes back to the old saying "it takes 90 days to break a habit".

You should start your own thread in the "bupe in the rear-view mirror" forum!

And even if you're going to NA, don't forget us folk back here :D


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 Post subject: Re: NoAlibi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:50 am 
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NoAlibi wrote:
Mark, I really have no idea why some people on this board would rather glorify Subz than talk real shit about em. You would have to ask them individually, I suppose.


So people who have stated they have NO long term effects from Suboxone should ignore that, and just come up with bullshit to say because it's what pleases the people who want to hear it?

So people like myself, who've been on Suboxone for 4+ years and haven't got any problems with it...should just ignore being healthy..and post that I have all sorts of issues from it, just so I can please the peanut gallery that wants something to add to their line-up of "OMG Suboxone bad" lines.

This really makes no sense..plenty of people have stated their personal experiences with Suboxone..it just doesn't fall into the bashing of the drug, so those people are only glorifying it and they don't count.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:50 am 
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Why do you guys have to keep throwing shit at each other? At least do it in PM where the rest of us won't get sprayed?

People are allowed to post their own experiences with Sub on this board whether they were positive / negative / whatever. IMO people don't have to censor their own experiences with Sub at all.

Discussing opioid neutoroxicity can get in depth and would need its own thread. I'd be keen to get involved in that kinda discussion if it stuck to the facts.

There's been enough hijacking of Mark's thread here.


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 Post subject: Thanks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:54 am 
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Thanks Tear,

I am trying to swing this thread back into its original destination. I was caught off guard initially & began responding when I should've just been wise enough to stick to the reasoning for me being here. Please no more of the debates, arguements, insults here (myself included) Let's just agree to disagree.

Orange Doll~ I reside in California. Though our guidelines are extremely strict concerning substance abuse,on the other hand, we are very protected. I personally have never had to deal with having to report my opiate dependence due to the fact that I took leave from work during the initial part of my addiction as I was receiving cancer treatment for Renal Cell carcinoma. I did however go back after I went into remission however as I began to experienceside effects from the Sub, especially with my memory & cognition, I took an extended leave of absence that I'm still on. I couldn't live with the idea that my opiate use could possibly compromise the health & lives of my patients, especially in the ER environment. So until I gain independence completely, I will not be returning to active nursing...too much of a risk & liability. In a trauma center, it just takes one second of hesitation or a small lapse in judgement....could cost a life and my license, it wasn't worth the bet for me personally. Once I am completely clean, I will return.

But more specifically, is it illegal? Completely dependent upon the case. I have worked with a few colleagues, some nurses as well as even physcians who were working while dealing with chemical dependence...and they continued to work without any issues legally. However, I am sure if there was any instance in where they were providing a sub standard in patient care, there would've been some problems, but it is completely dependent upon each individual case.


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 Post subject: Re: NoAlibi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:29 am 
jonathanm1978 wrote:
NoAlibi wrote:
Mark, I really have no idea why some people on this board would rather glorify Subz than talk real shit about em. You would have to ask them individually, I suppose.


So people who have stated they have NO long term effects from Suboxone should ignore that, and just come up with bullshit to say because it's what pleases the people who want to hear it?

So people like myself, who've been on Suboxone for 4+ years and haven't got any problems with it...should just ignore being healthy..and post that I have all sorts of issues from it, just so I can please the peanut gallery that wants something to add to their line-up of "OMG Suboxone bad" lines.

This really makes no sense..plenty of people have stated their personal experiences with Suboxone..it just doesn't fall into the bashing of the drug, so those people are only glorifying it and they don't count.


If you look at what I said, I suggested talking real shit about it. If you have had nothing but a fantastic experience, fine, talk about it. If you haven't, you should be able to discuss it here just as freely without being flamed. That is all I said, nothing more, nothing less.


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 Post subject: NoAlibi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:06 pm 
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NoAlibi~

I understood completely what it was that you were trying to state on this specific post. Correct me if wrong....but you were just implying that it is important to post each of our own "real" experiences with Bup regardless of whether it has been an unremarkable, positive, negative, horrible, or a combination of all these things? The most important part being that we all provide honest & factual experiences, as some of us will and have had not the best, while others have had really great experiences and others a little of both. We are all going to experience medications in a variety of different ways, as we are all biologically individuals. However, had I come here and found nothing but great unremarkable experiences, where nobody had any effects similair to mine, and that I was completely alone with this? I couldn't have even imagined just how unsettling that would have caused me to feel, thinking that I was completely alone in what I have been experiencing....it very well could've put me into a very dangerous frame of mind, and caused me to feel completely hopeless, iisolated and dangerously started an emotional downward spiral for me cause I would've left here with the idea that I was crazy & my Doctors were ignorant. But because I have interacted and discussed with those who know exactly what it is that I've personally experienced while on Sub, and that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, it has changed my complete perspective.

We should be able to come here and be 100% truthful about what it is that we have felt, seen, experienced and learned while being on this medication...they're all going to be different but it will relate to someone out there who is looking for answers and looking for those who have or are facing the same issues, whether good, bad or neither. So I completely agree with you about this...one of our posts or threads about our personal experience could possibly have the insight and information to change the path of someone who is out there in a state of fear, desperation and confusion. There is no right nor wrong in any of our individual experiences.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:00 pm 
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I'm with ya there Mark 100%.

This thread never needed to turn into a war zone. Both your opening post and Jonathan's reply were reasonable and civil. After going back and reading the first 4 posts, it's easy to see where the trouble started, and it's obvious there's no need for ill feelings between Mark & Jonathan.


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 Post subject: wow
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Chemically induced depression, seems to have waned somewhat quickly, with dose reduction, hmmmm,.
Great thread, but Lillyvals story makes the sunshine a little brighter, don't it?


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 Post subject: My Taper Progress...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Hi everyone,

From what I've read and heard from others tapering experience, tapering becomes really really difficult once tryiing to drop below the 2 mgs per day. I have been splitting my dosage into 2, I take the first mg in the a.m. & then the last mg in the evening...I've been doing well on only 2 mgs/day, haven't experienced any real trouble until yesterday. The day before yesterday, since I was doing so well with my first drop, I attempted dropping my daily dosage by a quarter of a mg, making my daily dosage 1.75 mgs. I started with taking 1 mg in the morning, and then .75 in the evening and up until I went to sleep that evening, I was physcially fine. No syptoms of w/d or anything, I fell asleep well. But at about 4:30 am I was awoken out of a dead sleep with an immense amount of anxiety, tons of tension in my arms & legs and a feeling like the nerves in them were standing on end. Even just having the sheets touch any part of my body was unbearable. I was tempted to go ahead and down a dose of Sub but instead took a luke warm shower which seemed to help just a little, I was able to hang on until my morning doseage of the 1 mg, and once I took it, within an hour I started feeling some relief. I thought it would stay at that level at least until my evening dose of .75 mg but unfortunately I didn't make it. Half way through the day yesterday, I began profusely sweating, my jaw was clenching up and I didn't even realize it until I started getting a headache and my teeth began to hurt, my intenstines were in complete knots with cramping & of course diarrhea..after about 4 hours of trying to hold out, I had no choice but to take another 1 mg, & then still took the .75 mg to help get me out of the w/d quickly. It worked of course, within a couple hours I was back to being what I am accostomed to as normal but I lost the battle this time. I am not entirely sure why, but it seems a lot of us hit this same plateau and problem once getting below the 2 mg dosing? I wonder why that is?

I may have lost this battle but I won't lose the war...I am going to continue on with the 2mgs for a few more days, and then attempt another taper by a .25 drop again but this time I'm going to do every other day, see if that at least makes it bearableat least until I can adjust physically. However, the positive side of everything is that I have so much more determination now that I've dropped to 2 mgs. God, I feel alive again...I feel human, it has been so incredible to wake up each day, and actually "feel"...even if I feel stressed, it is a good feeling, cause I can actually feel it, and then properly eliminate or deal with the issue that's causing the stress in order to get rid of it. My kids have even noticed a difference in my demeanor, my temperment, and moods...there has been such changes in a very short amount of time....it just gives me more motivation to keep on keeping on, pick my battle wisely, and find a way to be successful. Thank you guys again for all your feedback and advice, it has all really played a huge part of me being able to actually begin this journey of stopping....you showed me that it was possible and so worth it....not that it was going to be easy or simple, but nothing in life worth having is easy, but well worth any of the hardship. Thanks again everyone. Hope you are all doing well, living healthy, and staying strong! God bless.

Mark


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