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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:29 am 
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I wanted to say the same things you guys said, but with the thread going the way it has gone (for me), I figured it best that I just leave it with what I did post ..but nail on head!!

Just like I said..it doesnt make sense to rely on information to be reliable using that method. Especially when there's not any evidence to support the supposed issues thought to be caused by Suboxone not having already existed or having been caused by the active addiction. Just too many variables exist and even though this sounds feasible to someone who doesn't know any better, most of us know that this isn't plausible.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:21 am 
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The self reporting thing can go both ways, it could apply to anyone who says that they feel completely normal while on Suboxone too. Self reporting IS inherently biased, so we shouldn't be listening to anyone on this site who is still on Suboxone or off of Suboxone because it would all be self reporting??

If that's the case, why is this forum even here? If we're supposed to quote scientific studies to back up all of our claims, then why don't we just flood this site with all the scientific studies we can find and then we can all go home and stop self reporting about our experiences with Suboxone.

This is from the main page of this forum, "Active threads include discussions about Suboxone withdrawal, side effects, how to taper Suboxone or buprenorphine, and issues related to Suboxone induction."

Apparently, one of the reasons this forum is here IS to discuss side effects, among other topics. I'm all for having accurate information on this site, but we certainly don't seem to spend much time and effort questioning anyone who comes along with positive side effects from Suboxone, only those who've had negative side effects have their judgement called into question.

As a side note, I've been off of Suboxone for a good while now and to the best of my knowledge, Suboxone has NOT caused me any kind of permanent damage. To date, I still have some sleep issues, as far as I'm concerned, those issues are caused by my anxiety problems. My anxiety is worse now that I'm off of Suboxone, but opiates always seemed to calm my anxiety, so really my anxiety isn't worse now that I'm off Suboxone, it's probably gone back to normal....I just feel it more because I'm not on any opiates. My internal thermostat still isn't back to normal yet.....that's probably the one symptom that I don't have a good explanation for and if that's the net result of me using Suboxone and now being opiate free......I'll take that symptom every fucking day of the week, thank you very much!!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:34 am 
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Discussing side effects is not the same thing as stating to know about factual long term permanent damage, which is what we were discussing.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:47 am 
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Isn't discussing side effects self reporting?? If self reporting is useless, then why do we all do it?

I understand the point of presenting personal experience as fact is frowned upon and I agree with that, but that's not all we we're discussing.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:54 am 
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We were discussing alleged factual "permanent" long term damage of suboxone. When someone makes a claim such as that, some kind of back up citation/source needs to be presented. Period.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:21 pm 
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The OP's original questions were about getting off of Suboxone, too bad we're not discussing more of that.

And like I said, "I understand the point of presenting personal experience as fact is frowned upon and I agree with that."

Period!! hahaha, that was funny how you included that!! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:34 pm 
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It appears that no matter what it is I say, you will pick it apart. However, I feel I've made myself clear. If you have further issues with me (I don't recall seeing you pick apart any other posts the way you do mine), address them via PM.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Hey mark,

Have you had any luck getting your taper started?? Slow and easy is usually the best way to go. I had mentioned this previously, but I figured I'd throw it out there again.....if you drop by 25% or so while above 4mg or so, then drop by 10% or so in and around the 4mg area, you should have a decent taper without too much discomfort.

I hope you're able to get started on your taper soon and I hope it decreases some of the side effects you've been experiencing.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:05 pm 
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I didn't really mean to pick you apart Hat, I think the self-reporting thing kinda confused me. Self reporting sounds a lot like what all of us do when we discuss our experiences with Suboxone and due to the lack of long term studies on Suboxone, all we're left with is each others experiences.

But again, I agree that Mark should have rephrased his comments so as not to insinuate or outright claim that his experiences of brain damage were based on scientific studies when he apparently doesn't have that data to show us.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:21 pm 
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He didn't say that, per se, he insinuated that since he is involved in the medical field in some way that he has a better correlation with doctors and NUMEROUS people who have in-depth experience with this...which still brings up some flags to me, but I digress....

He wasn't saying he had scientific basis for his post, he was merely saying that we should talk to "educated" doctors like he had talked with to find out for ourselves...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Towards the end of his second post, he said, "The chemical properties in Sub can and will cause biological damage, just as any opiate does, that's not my personal opinion, it is scientific fact."

That statement, along with him talking about some of the research he and his doctors had done, lead me to believe that he had scientific data to back up the claims.

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 Post subject: Is this for real?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:49 am 
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I am so incredibly overwhelmed at just how far sideways that this has all become in such a short matter of time. My intent in seeking this forum out was with the hope that I would come to find someone who would be able to understand that I am in need of tapering & stopping my dependence & addiction to this med, and perhaps be able to share their experience with me or maybe one who is where I am at as well and perhaps we could set up a form of support & encouragment for one another in order to be successful. Sadly, right out the gate....I was immediately misjudged, insulted repeatedly, & even though I had strictly only posted the FACT that I have had negative effects personally & had made the choice to discontinue with my dependence on Suboxone, it was immediately assumed that I was "bashing" sub even though I had made it very clear at just how grateful I was to have had the chance to get sober with the use of Sub. Every word that I have posted on this thread was done with the motive of sharing & hopefully helping, that is ALL. Ihave NOT "bashed" anyone or anything up to this point nor do I have any intent to do so, it is just not me. I would however quickly like to clarify a couple of things that I've posted in earlier posts, and that are being picked apart....just so that I may have peace of mind knowing that I was clear in both my statements as well as my intentions....

~Never bashed Suboxone, strictly shared my own personal experiences that unfortunately involved some negative effects.
~Confusion over Anecdotal evidence & Cliniical studies- I thought I was clear when I stated "patient feedback AND patient EXPERIENCE"...as in physiological experience, physical reactions...the kind that can be assessed by laboratory testing such as blood work ups, radiological imaging, neuroscience studies. These kind of patient "experiences" were what I was referring to hence why I stated both.
~OVERALL, THE MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE- It is our health, our lives, and there are far too many variables, too many unknown factors, insuffiecient data available to users....it is important to seek out physicians who are deeply educated in having extensive knowledge in Opiate dependency, its effects, its impacts, ....that's all. I know it was stated that finding a doctor or specialist like that is not something one would want to embark into....the only response I have to that is, it is your body....not much I can really add to that.

For everyone who has given support or words of encouragement, I thank you very very much for your kindness.


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 Post subject: Mark
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:50 am 
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I wanted to post a reply here but who knows if this person will be back. I really think if there needs to be a match about all this anger some people are having they should start another thread "maybe a bitch hall or something" to get it all out. Just a suggestion! I just think there are underlying issues here.

Any way, I too have been on Suboxone for almost six years and am tapering off slowly, I tried the stopping cold turkey but the withdraw was horrible. I have been on for pain management but am also an addict, opiates being my drug of choice. So the side effects are getting to me also after being on so long. I am learning new ways to deal with my pain and I question how much is in my head due to the addict in me. It had been tough and I know it will get tougher but it can be done, there are several people on here that have done great. For a wonderful post and withdraw story check out VariTech, jumped with out a parachute, has great info. This is my favorite area here so far, everyone is respectful and they don't get into the fighting with words that took place here.

Good Luck


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 Post subject: So I am clear?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:39 am 
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So that I am entirely clear in my understanding. Essentially the cause for the strikes, debates & defensiveness found here is due to the apparentbelief that Opiate dependency, as long as it is Bup, is biologically inconsequential of any effects whether used short or long term? At the core, this is the core mentality that's passionately shared by some, and is what I can take away from this experience? I just have it in my nature to have definition. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: So I am clear?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:42 am 
markb0707 wrote:
Opiate dependency, as long as it is Bup, is biologically inconsequential of any effects whether used short or long term? At the core, this is the core mentality that's passionately shared by some, and is what I can take away from this experience?


I want to come out right now and say that I passionately disagree with this statement (meaning that I agree with you, markb).


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 Post subject: NoAlibi
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:43 am 
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Well...according to my experience here, I think you may be one of the very few otherwise 90% of the posts responding to mine would have any purpose or cause, am I wrong about that? What seemingly has been within every post, is a sense of highly passionate debates that there are people who are taking Sub, or were on it extensively and at no time ever did they experience any effects from Sub AT ALL. It is obvious that when discussing OTHER opiates it is pretty common knowledge that they impact the body in a negative manner...nobody has seemed to debate that little piece of the pie, yet Bup, does NOT, CANNOT, AND WILL NOT have negative effects when used long term because it doesn't state so on a piece of paper, or pardon me, a "link." I personally am just quite intrigued at this idea...and I've been trying to find where it states that the OPiOID in Sub is an all new miraculous opiate that is completely different than all the rest of them? Still haven't found it unfortunately... ; )


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:15 am 
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For those of you asking about my original post, I want to really say thank you. I am here looking for some support and help in what would be the best way to stop my dependence on Sub...or at least get some ideas from those that have been through it. Currently since my original post, I have taken some of the advice that has been kindly provided and I have tapered down from 4-8mgs/day to 2mgs/day and I have to say what an INCREDIBLE difference it has already made. Some of you told me it would make a difference but I was skeptical to say the very least....but now that I've done it, and am doing it, all I can say and feel is, WOW. I am already beginning to sense more attachment to my emotions, and the mental fog is beginning to thin out....today has probably been one of the best days I've had in such a long long time. I have more energy than I've had in years...got up, went to church with my spouse and kids, came home and cooked a huge dinner for all of us, and just enjoyed being in the moment, and actually being able to feel while being in the moment. It was really a blessing. I am going to continue to proceed as you have advised...taking the taper very slow, according to my needs, my body and my ability. I will overcome this dependence. Thank you all again for your advice, your supportive words, and your kindness...it really does go a very very long way to someone like myself.

Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:32 am 
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Mark,

Sorry your thread got so out of control. This is a supportave group that strives to provide acurate info.

So when you say that opiates/sub cause permanent brain damage we want to know where you got this.

I am an RN too.....I have not heard that opiates cause irreversible brain damage. I could be wrong I suppose. I spent most of my time as an RN high as fuck.

So I will do some reading up on this myself and let you all know what I find out.

I have been on sub for two years this april. I'm at 4mg. I have no side effects. I'm glad that reducing your dose made you feel better!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:19 am 
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The reason I think (just a theory) some people are sensitive about Sub being criticised is the same reason people of all recovery methods can be sensitive to criticism of their choice of recovery. If I went to a 12-step meeting tonight and told everyone how shit my life was in NA, and pointing out all the flaws in the program, I wouldn't make many friends. And not just because of the disrespect. The people in there made a decision at some point to base the whole foundation of their recovery and life on that program, so if I came along pointing out all the flaws and told them how much better I feel since I left, they'd no doubt wanna defend their own recovery as they would their own life.

Same goes for people on Sub, especially those who know they need it indefinitely. They don't wanna be made to feel like they've chosen a B-grade life because they need to stay on buprenorphine. When people trying to stop Sub come on here and focus only on the negatives of their treatment, which they often do to keep them motivated, it can also leave those who need to stay on Sub feeling less-than. Or worse, leave them questioning their decision to stay on Suboxone when it may be the only thing keeping them alive.

Sometimes we get so lost focusing on our own recovery that we forget how what we're posting can undermine the recovery of others. I'm guilty no doubt with all my 12-step rants. Personal recovery choice is a real sensitive subject, and the cause of 99% of the arguments here.

I've been on and off buprenorphine at various times, and this has been my experience with buprenorphine detox and the different feeling of both on and off Subutex. Both times I went off Suboxone, I jumped off quite high doses - 6+ mg. Because you're doing a proper taper, my experiences might not be as relevant. But the acute withdrawal symptoms lasted around 2 weeks, peaking at days 7-10. By day 12-14 I felt like I was 'in the clear'. And for me, jumping off that dose of buprenorphine was a more difficult detox than any straight heroin detox. However, a LONG time ago I also did a taper of Subutex down to 1mg, and that detox was relatively mild in comparison.

As for the feeling of being on buprenorphine compared to being abstinent. Yes, I did feel more present when I was abstinent. Music doesn't stir up my emotions as much on sub, nor do movies. Kinda like being on anti-depressants / mood stabilisers, things can feel a bit blunted in comparison. But compared to my life in addiction where I was emaciated, mostly suicidal and in near constant-blackout, I'm miles ahead now on Sub. I'd rather feel like spectator in my life than have no life at all.

Out of all the opioid based pharmacotherapies, Sub for me is the closest feeling to being 100% abstinent.

I am more emotionally resilient while on bupe, probably because I am a bit more distant than I would be if I was off opioids completely. This is definitely a good thing. While I had some really great times in my clean stints, the ups and downs were overwhelming at times. The cravings to usewere a lot stronger. I'd often crave an 'opioid holiday' from it all. And when I did use, it was a LOT harder to stop than it has been when I'd use on buprenorphine. (But how much of that was because I believed I was "powerless" is hard to say). That is why I am back on buprenorphine today.

But you gotta understand Mark that most people here were in pretty bad shape when we were introduced to buprenorphine. Bupe, despite it not being perfect, despite all its side-effects, has had a HUGE positive effect on many of our lives. The transition from agonist addiction to Sub dependence for me, and many here, is like night and day. Even if sub made me impotent, grow man-boobs and lose a hand, I'd still be ahead compared to where I was.

If in your case, buprenorphine has had a negative effect on your life, that is not the fault of buprenorphine. If anything it's the fault of your doctor for not truly informing you of what you were in for, and for putting you on a treatment that may have been overkill for what you required. I mean, you say you weren't abusing your meds at all? You've had zero history of addiction!! Why would someone like that require long term replacement therapy? If I were you right now, I'd be asking your doctor some hard questions.

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The chemical properties in Sub can and will cause biological damage, just as any opiate does, that's not my personal opinion, it is scientific fact. Ipersonally have already dealt with losing 2 people who I had been in a therapy group with dying from effects caused by Suboxone....one dies of liver failure while the other stopped breathing during his sleep.


When someone makes a big call like that, IMO it's fair to ask for the references to back it up. Esp given it could scare people off a treatment that could save their life. IMO it's justified for people to ask for proof, because if all these kinda statements were left unchallenged, this place would be like a bad horror novel.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:01 am 
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Great post tear!

if I see a neurologist today at work I'm going to ask about long term biological damage from opiates! Lol


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