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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Apparently we're supposed to say nothing? Are we not allowed to respond or defend a medication that's being attacked (which is really stupid anyway when you think about it)? But when we do that, we're accused of worshiping it. Damned either way.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:18 pm 
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By all means, I think everyone should be able to state their opinion, good or bad, without being disrespectful or judgmental, or acting like they have it all figured out...like they are better than someone else. I have never seen you be either of these hatmaker... you are always respectful and kind in any posts I've ever read. I think it's the tone in which some statements are spoken (and sometimes it's just the blatant rude statement itself). Such as:

jonathanm1978 wrote:
You go straight to hell.



jonathanm1978 wrote:
There's a difference in being "high" and being CLEAN. Some just can't see that..those are the ones who have problems with denial...and what recovery REALLY is.


jonathanm1978 wrote:
You actually read my post. That other "person", for lack of better words, DID NOT.


jonathanm1978 wrote:
AT LEAST I'm not SUB-stituting one drug for another..like Kratom for instance...and trying to chase a high because I like the way it makes me feel.


jonathanm1978 wrote:
All you gotta do is scroll up and read more than the first line.


jonathanm1978 wrote:
And obviously you understood what I was saying, unlike some who either didn't read it, or just can't comprehend all those words.


jonathanm1978 wrote:
That's one of those "duh" moments...


And those are just quotes from this one thread. I've seen many more like this, and even worse in other threads, all from the same person. I don't understand why this is accepted but others are reprimanded for being disrespectful. And if you truly don't think these statements are not disrespectful, then I digress.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Here's another one you can add to your list....

You apparently can't read anything but MY posts, because if you could, YOU would be able to find such as this:

NoAlibi wrote:
Thank you Jonathan, for another long self-centered novel that doesn't address any of the OPs questions.


And this:

NoAlibi wrote:
Sorry Jonathan. I forgot that you were better than everybody else in the world because you get the pills that you are addicted to from a doctor instead of off the street.


And this:

NoAlibi wrote:
I don't give a shit where your information comes from.


And this:

NoAlibi wrote:
I know you're probably just going to derail this thread by writing a self-centered novel all about yourself that has no relation to any of the other posts in this thread like you always do, so carry on I guess.


So before you go and start talking down to people, just as THESE quotes are talking down to ME..you should know the WHOLE story..and not just PART of it. That's all from ONE thread...I'm being followed around the site and disrespected by someone who's been here for 2 weeks and hasn't bothered to help anyone except for to advertise Kratom...so yeah --- and thanks for your INSIGHTFUL review of me as a member. Carry on with your pass/fail expectations of what people should say and do.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Dont worry Hat my post was not geared towards you. Its not everyone its the same group of people.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:01 pm 
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LOL that was quick! I have read all of Alibi's posts at the time they were posted so I do know the whole story. And the point was...Alibi did get reprimanded, but Alibi wasn't the only one making these kind of remarks. And I did read your entire post on this thread, instead of just the first part like you insinuated, and I comprehended them very well, thank you. I don't think I need to say anything else. You prove my point for me, as I'm sure you will continue to do so.

I apologize to the original poster, this has nothing to do with you offending anyone or you starting any arguments at all! I will not reply here anymore and take away from what the thread was intended for. Sorry about that! :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Taurus wrote:
LOL that was quick! I have read all of Alibi's posts at the time they were posted so I do know the whole story. And the point was...Alibi did get reprimanded, but Alibi wasn't the only one making these kind of remarks. And I did read your entire post on this thread, instead of just the first part like you insinuated, and I comprehended them very well, thank you. I don't think I need to say anything else. You prove my point for me, as I'm sure you will continue to do so.

I apologize to the original poster, this has nothing to do with you offending anyone or you starting any arguments at all! I will not reply here anymore and take away from what the thread was intended for. Sorry about that! :oops:


You're right about one thing, nobody had to side-track this post with personal attacks as was done early-on...better yet, nobody has to come in pointing fingers and saying "lookie at what they are doing, they are wrong...ooooh look look at them.."

But, as you clearly have observed..I should be attacked and not say anything to defend myself..EVER. I should never take up for myself or say anything when I'm disrespected...thank you for that assessment of the situation. I'm glad I prove a point, and that point is ...nobody has the right to be disrespectful..but in my actions, I was disrespected and I confronted the person who did it.

NONE OF YOU were involved..you CHOSE to involve yourself and ADD TO IT...What part of that is NOT comprehended? (please don't say it is comprehended, because by the actions in this very thread, everyone who wants to throw their two cents in has a right to disrespect people right along with the instigator.)

I'm done..this has gone FAR enough..and obviously it's just a breeding ground for more and more people to come in and post their thoughts too..obviously it's not going to stop..people just keep saying crap and NoAlibi hasn't posted since the other day. People just keep saying crap because I'm responding to it..so with that, I AM DONE. You guys want to keep throwing insults, by all means, have at it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:46 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Apparently we're supposed to say nothing? Are we not allowed to respond or defend a medication that's being attacked (which is really stupid anyway when you think about it)? But when we do that, we're accused of worshiping it. Damned either way.


As far as I could tell, the opening post wasn't attacking Suboxone at all. He was just detailing his own experience with Suboxone.

I agree that Suboxone should be defended when it's attacked unjustifiably, which happens a lot. The problem is that often people on Sub / on this forum are overly sensitive about sub's shortcomings, and read a post detailing negative effects about Suboxone as an attack when often it isn't.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:28 pm 
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I agree Tear. (you're pretty sharp for a guy from Australia!!! :lol: !!)

In addition, this was markb0707's very first post on this forum and it would have been nice if we could have cut the poor guy a little slack and first offered to help him with his questions. markb0707 had made up his mind that he wanted off of Suboxone, but some members seemed to have missed that. He was asking for help and information about the wd process, he never asked to be questioned if "he was for real."

I don't quite get the defensiveness over Suboxone either. I take Lisinopril for high blood pressure, if I ever found a Lisinopril forum and some dude on that forum said, "Lisinopril made my right arm fall off!!", I'd laugh and carry on about my business. If they said, "Lisinopril caused me brain damage", I'd again laugh because my brain can't get much more damaged than it already is and I'd again carry on about my business.

I also agree that the OP's original post was not an attack on Suboxone, it was his personal experience and he should feel free to share that information all he wants to.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
I agree Tear. (you're pretty sharp for a guy from Australia!!! :lol: !!)

In addition, this was markb0707's very first post on this forum and it would have been nice if we could have cut the poor guy a little slack and first offered to help him with his questions. markb0707 had made up his mind that he wanted off of Suboxone, but some members seemed to have missed that. He was asking for help and information about the wd process, he never asked to be questioned if "he was for real."

I don't quite get the defensiveness over Suboxone either. I take Lisinopril for high blood pressure, if I ever found a Lisinopril forum and some dude on that forum said, "Lisinopril made my right arm fall off!!", I'd laugh and carry on about my business. If they said, "Lisinopril caused me brain damage", I'd again laugh because my brain can't get much more damaged than it already is and I'd again carry on about my business.

I also agree that the OP's original post was not an attack on Suboxone, it was his personal experience and he should feel free to share that information all he wants to.


I second that, Tear. You are one sharp guy. I enjoy reading your feedback, because it is consistently balanced and reasonable.

LT

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:20 am 
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hi mark0707" i'm on subs for 0ver 2 years now and on 22mg . i think we all should put on our congress pants and join'. that's how they all ack't :lol: this shit just make me worry more, and i have the 2hour wake up feeling of the living dead, and the 4 to8 hour night feeling of knowing what's coming the next day and if i can even remember it. i don't think its all the subs falt, and it may be my other meds.
laddertripper" you scare me. and i believe you in every thing you said. but i don't want to see
what's coming for me in the future of geting off subs. it is hard enough right now, never mind raking off all the scabs of remission and a brain that can't remember much each and every day.
i feel for ya mark0707". where we are at right now, is hard enough.

were all going through life and getting older and older and still in remission recovery waiting for the small or big blow and who no's how big or small ? we can only practice/ be care full as "possible" if possible/ and wait/wait/wait. it does so really suck pond water, when your standing or siting or walking and thinking GRAY ONLY' and try to take a jog and find out metabulissim is going to burn it up to fast and then go back to gray again. and i'm not going to miss out on the feelings of daily passing of interest that really don't seem to get complete like one that is not on meds. i feel ladder" said on subs you go/go/go" but way'r the real show is" is when your off it. well hell'. CHAINS but may need them/

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:30 am 
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Hello again...I just wanted to quickly rspond to those with questions pertaining to neurotoxity caused by Suboxone. The best way to get as much information pertaining to this med is to seek out and find physicians who are very educated, deeply versed and very involved with Suboxone. Please note the differences in physcians who can actually prescribe Suboxone, and those that actually scientifically research & study its properties, biological effects...both short and long term....please don't confuse them as being similiar, because they're not by any means.That's like making the statement that a Podiatrist and a Neurologist are one in the same because they both have prescription pads. My research has been done side by side with them guiding and leading me in my endeavor. When you find the proper physician, and consult with them, it'll bring a lot of answers to the questions that a lot of people have. Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:48 am 
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ENOUGH! There have indeed been insults being thrown around towards jonathan and that needs to stop. Disagree with what someone SAYS OR THINKS but leave the individual OUT OF IT! These are considered personal attacks. I can't believe I'm saying this so soon after I just said this - AGAIN!

If while you are posting you start to mention another member, think to yourself, "is this going to help support the OP?". If it does not, then why are you saying it at all? If another member went off the rails, leave that on them. There's no need to gang up on anyone nor to point out anyone's faults. JUST CUT THE SHIT OUT.

And again, if someone is going to make claims about long-term effects of suboxone, PLEASE POST CITATIONS AND SOURCES, otherwise you are posting your personal opinion and presenting it as fact and that is inappropriate.

If anyone has questions about my post, please PM me and we will discuss this directly.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:53 am 
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markb0707 wrote:
Hello again...I just wanted to quickly rspond to those with questions pertaining to neurotoxity caused by Suboxone. The best way to get as much information pertaining to this med is to seek out and find physicians who are very educated, deeply versed and very involved with Suboxone. Please note the differences in physcians who can actually prescribe Suboxone, and those that actually scientifically research & study its properties, biological effects...both short and long term....please don't confuse them as being similiar, because they're not by any means.That's like making the statement that a Podiatrist and a Neurologist are one in the same because they both have prescription pads. My research has been done side by side with them guiding and leading me in my endeavor. When you find the proper physician, and consult with them, it'll bring a lot of answers to the questions that a lot of people have. Hope this helps.


markb0707 wrote:
Hello again...I just wanted to quickly rspond to those with questions pertaining to neurotoxity caused by Suboxone. The best way to get as much information pertaining to this med is to seek out and find physicians who are very educated, deeply versed and very involved with Suboxone.


I think of things rationally-speaking..this isn't your every-day thing that your average person does. Most people wouldn't know where to start...and besides that, lots of people live in areas where there aren't even that many doctors, must-less doctors who are so extremely versed in Suboxone and the pharmacology of it to know about the things you've mentioned here.
This is more along the lines of scientific research..not basic doctor-patient interaction.

And this is also why there are clinical studies that get posted in medical journals..so that people do NOT have to take on these endeavors and do all of this research for themselves...there's only so much a person can do that lives 100 miles from the nearest big city can do with Google and a telephone.

I hope it's not taken the wrong way..but you really didn't give anything concrete for people to go on who are looking at this neurotoxicity issue. And I'm not sure how someone should go about finding a doctor who has such a background, by reading through a few posts here on this site, most people are doing good to have a doctor that even knows how to prescribe Suboxone..and most barely have any knowledge of drugs that interact with it, or what NOT to prescribe to people taking Suboxone...so it's going to be near impossible to find a doctor who doubles as a scientist.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:04 pm 
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This has definately been an experience here on this forum. It frankly has been saddening for me....I came upon here with so much hope at the prospect of finding support in others that are going through similair issues pertaining to the use of Suboxone and the process of detoxing however, it seems I've come across a site for debating, which sadly I was not in search or in need of. I had thought , given the struggles, difficulties and hardships that chemical dependency brings about that there would've been strong bonds built on the fact everyone is on the same side of the war zone. However....for those of you that did take the time to respond to my posts with a sincere want to advise and help, I truly do appreciate it and I am very grateful. I do hope that you ALL are successful in your sobriety, your lives, and your futures, whether on OR OFF of suboxone. God blesseach of you!

MarkB


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:05 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
hatmaker510 wrote:
Apparently we're supposed to say nothing? Are we not allowed to respond or defend a medication that's being attacked (which is really stupid anyway when you think about it)? But when we do that, we're accused of worshiping it. Damned either way.


As far as I could tell, the opening post wasn't attacking Suboxone at all. He was just detailing his own experience with Suboxone.

I agree that Suboxone should be defended when it's attacked unjustifiably, which happens a lot. The problem is that often people on Sub / on this forum are overly sensitive about sub's shortcomings, and read a post detailing negative effects about Suboxone as an attack when often it isn't.


@

Thankyou for this post tear!!!


The last sentence is pretty much the main problem with this forum. People have a right to know that suboxone is not this miracle drug for everyone. But i think so many people are afraid to say how they really feel bc of the way people react to those post here. If u cant b honest on a recovery forum.

hat you say you want sources and all that, whats better than numerous people all stating they has similar negative side effects do to being on sub for more than two years. I dont care what sum over paid scientists or Dr have to say about longterm side effects from suboxone. Instead im going to listen to the person who was on the drug and have real first hand evidence that this is happening to them. And if its just one person saying this than ill give u the benefit of the doubt but three in this thread alone not to mention the countless threads about being emotionless on suboxone. You cant tell me all those people arewrong. This is real facts as good as it gets from the people who tak da drug no make the drug.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 pm 
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markb0707 wrote:
...I am truthfully fearful that even when I do stop Sub, I don't know that I will ever recover or be the same that I was once upon a time.


That's my fear too, but in reverse. I don't want to be the same as I was once upon a time. An insecure, selfish, depressed, anxiety-filled narcissist who had to be high on something just to get through the day. Opiates made life grand and suboxone makes it mostly bearable. Honestly my only issue with oxy was cost and availability. To some people this is a "drug problem". I say the problem started when I couldn't get any.

I don't really have a point except to say yeah if opiates were legal and free I'd never stop eating them so why should I stop taking the opiate suboxone which is legal and way cheaper than the oxy?

Jimmy


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:53 am 
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H

hat you say you want sources and all that, whats better than numerous people all stating they has similar negative side effects do to being on sub for more than two years. I dont care what sum over paid scientists or Dr have to say about longterm side effects from suboxone. Instead im going to listen to the person who was on the drug and have real first hand evidence that this is happening to them. And if its just one person saying this than ill give u the benefit of the doubt but three in this thread alone not to mention the countless threads about being emotionless on suboxone. You cant tell me all those people arewrong. This is real facts as good as it gets from the people who tak da drug no make the drug.[/quote


Hi Jimmy,

You make a very valid and reasonable point. I do understand the need to want documented research and written scientific statements pertaining to the subject at hand but I think what is important to state is that the vast majority of research concerning meds, especially of this nature, the research is based on patient feedback and patient experience....that's pretty much where they come to their clinical conclusions. That is why there are studies put into place, for that very reason. Again, I believe that my statements have been and are being misconstrued....I am not entirely sure as to why but I assume there is some reason or another. I think the easiest way to make things very simple for everyone to understand what it is that I am stating is to say this....Suboxone is incontestably an OPIOID. Information to support that is found throughout the internet, publishing online, in journals, in books, etc and is easily accessible to the vast majority of the public. Perceiving or treating Sub as though it is not as such is a dangerous prospect. It contains the same chemical compounds found in most other opiates, and for the most part has most of the similair biological effects...therefore can make excessive exposure and long term use of it a dangerous proposition. I am not making statement based on personal opinion, or just making comments solely based on my ideas or experiences...I'm presenting very well known facts easily accessible to most everyone who does the foot work in researching. Another fact that is published online is that physicians that are legally capable of prescribing Suboxone should have enough background and education concerning it. The DEA (Go to their website) reqquires for any physician wanting to be able to prescribe Suboxone/Subutex, etc to patient must first attend and complete a 1 year educational program teaching them thoroughly about the medicine, and then additionally once the course is completed and/or passed, they must obtain an additional specific DEA number that legally permits the physician to be legally capable in prescribing it to patients. Please understand, any and all data and information that I share is solely for the purpose to provide information, that is all. It is not to debate, it is not to try and convince any one of anything, it isn't to cause fear, it is strictly only for the reason of providing truthful and factual information as I know it.....Especially because there is such a huge lack of actual data being provided to the general public, especially to users of Sub. I gain nothing from coming here to make untrue statements, or speculations...what would there be to gain in doing that? Absolutely nothing.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:17 am 
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markb0707 wrote:
You make a very valid and reasonable point. I do understand the need to want documented research and written scientific statements pertaining to the subject at hand but I think what is important to state is that the vast majority of research concerning meds, especially of this nature, the research is based on patient feedback and patient experience....that's pretty much where they come to their clinical conclusions. That is why there are studies put into place, for that very reason.


I hope this isn't misconstrued as well, but for the research community to take their clinical conclusions from a bunch of ex-addicts who can't even get along, and even in this thread, we can't even agree on anything...and they base conclusions on the experience of people like us?
I'd hate to think any scientific or clinical conclusion was based on ME. It's not a very reliable source of information.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:05 am 
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This is ridiculous.

The only two people who've contributed to this thread who can say whether Sub has residual side-effects are Laddertipper and Romeo. Everyone else, including Mark and myself, are still on Sub. Even Romeo / Laddertipper probably haven't been off long enough to know whether Sub has caused any permanent changes. I've been on and off buprenorphine in the past, but I wouldn't even consider assessing it until I'd had a good 5 years clean.

But I didn't find buprenorphine caused any more damage than any other opioid. Also, every side-effect I had from buprenorphine was reversible, and went away after I got off it.

So there's all these claims that bupe causes lasting damage from people who couldn't possibly even know at this point.

Mark, I gotta call bullshit on a lot of what you're saying here. No 'clinical conclusions' as you say are based on anecdotal evidence. If there's enough concerns brought up by enough patients, studies can be started to look into it. And thus far, there have been no studies into whether buprenorphine is neurotoxic.

You claim you're presenting very 'well known facts' that aren't just your opinions... Then you come out with this gem?

Quote:
It contains the same chemical compounds found in most other opiates,


Each opioid is a unique compound. What you said doesn't make any sense at all?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:10 am 
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I was going to respond and say that's not clinical evidence from studies - that's called anecdotal evidence and it's not the same thing. It's based on self-reporting and it's slanted. Self-reporting is inherently biased. But tearjerker beat me to it.

Besides, I've been on sub for nearly 3.5 years myself and I have none of those negative side effects some of you are talking about. So what about that as evidence against what you are saying? Also, I know other members of this forum - one in particular - who's been on sub for over 6 years, 7 actually I believe, and she has ZERO negative side effects. I only wish she were around more often to tell you this herself.

Let's move on to this statement:

Quote:
The DEA (Go to their website) reqquires (sic) for any physician wanting to be able to prescribe Suboxone/Subutex, etc to patient must first attend and complete a 1 year educational program teaching them thoroughly about the medicine, and then additionally once the course is completed and/or passed, they must obtain an additional specific DEA number that legally permits the physician to be legally capable in prescribing it to patients.


Sub doctors do NOT require a YEAR's training! Where did you get that? They are supposed to have NOT LESS THAT 8 HOURS TRAINING to get their DATA 2000 waiver. See this site: http://buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/waiver_ ... tions.html

Now like I said, please stop presenting personal opinion as fact, it's still inappropriate. And double-check what you ARE presenting, because you are giving THE WRONG information, like ONE YEAR's training for doctors is simply not true.

Lastly, if you want to bash suboxone and it's supposed long term effects, there are plenty of anti-sub/sub-bashing forums out there.

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