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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:53 pm 
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When people are curious and interested in what people have to say or believe it as negativity doesn't that show those people indeed do have issues from the suboxone? that people who are clean from suboxone are experiencing discomfort several months and years out? that not everybody who is off suboxone and claims to be doing well is actually doing well psychically and mentally? that also people diagnosed with conditions and other problems are thinking perhaps it is linked the suboxone or their past suboxone usage?

I hope people will re-read what I have said so far. Like I have said there does not have to be concrete evidence and proof front of you for you to believe something, sometimes taking things on faith can be the right thing to do. Hopefully in the not too distant future there will be studies made public and easy to obtain, then hopefully people like I and others who work so hard to research and study this medicine will be vindicated, but I will take no joy from that, rather will rejoice that future sub users will be deterred and save them the health risks and problems that suboxone gives.

Buprenorphine may have been available for decades as someone said but it was not available in the doses we see today and there were hardly any patients on maintenance programmes at the time. Just because something is invented or discovered does not mean we know about it or its dangers to society and individuals. When money is involved then consideration for long term affects is gone right out of the window. Sometimes only way to know long term affects properly are to use patients as trials, or shall I say guinea pigs, which suboxone patients seem to be, but just because people have not seen concrete studies does not mean anything that I have said is untrue. Anything you put in your bodies needs to be tested for its long term health risks, and sometimes where money is involved only way to realize that is to use patients as human trials. But slowly in recent times its coming out and more and more people are thinking twice of using suboxone, this includes doctors too, which is a good sign..

Be well people and I can only hope you will take in what am saying.. Just get yourselves tested for everything there is, if you have been a suboxone user, especially for over a year, particularly when you have stopped using it for the last few to several months and years. Some people believe whatever they are diagnosed with is non-suboxone related so do not go the full distant in eliminating that possibility. But the positive sign is people are now thinking of the suboxone as part of their problems which can arise several months to years later.


p.s backing up is like saying can anybody back up their claim of staying clean off suboxone or beating paws and withdrawals. Or backing up in what they are talking about suboxone. Hopefully in the not too distant future more information will be available to patients and public and they would see that as hardcore legit facts, but at the moment freedom of speech and expression should be allowed...I cannot back up what is not readily available at this moment in time. The way I obtained information was not by internet or print-out stats, but by communication, research, having sources within the suboxone pharmaceutical field and patient results and doctor studies.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Hessler does remind me of someone who has posted here before. Not Ironic. But definitely someone. Just can't put my finger on it.

Something about that old "I've spoken to many professionals in the industry" line ... rings a bell somewhat.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:47 pm 
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I haven't posted here before but after reading Hesslers posts I am very very concerned that he may actually deter people from seeking out a medical treatment for addiction that undoubtedly saves lives.
Please people, don't be persuaded by his long winded rantings.
There are thousands of peer reviewed evidence based studies on suboxone that have been conducted over the past 20+ years that are available to the public but he can't point us to even one that backs up his claims.
Don't believe him, do your own research and made your own decisions based on fact, not on the rantings of an anonymous individual who can say what ever he likes to promote his own agenda, what ever that may be.
Good Health to everyone
ip


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:34 am 
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I wish there were a "like" button for the posts by ipman, TeeJay and Glen Bee. You guys rock!

laddertipper, what do you think your biggest challenge with suboxone has been? Tapering? Feeling lousy physically after stopping completely? The mental/mind game aspect of addiction? And what has helped you stay away from opiates every day? Is there something you tell yourself, or remind yourself of each day?

Your success is very inspiring and I hope this thread can be all about you and your story from here on out!

Amy

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:52 am 
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hessler wrote:
When people are curious and interested in what people have to say or believe it as negativity doesn't that show those people indeed do have issues from the suboxone? that people who are clean from suboxone are experiencing discomfort several months and years out? that not everybody who is off suboxone and claims to be doing well is actually doing well psychically and mentally? that also people diagnosed with conditions and other problems are thinking perhaps it is linked the suboxone or their past suboxone usage?

I hope people will re-read what I have said so far. Like I have said there does not have to be concrete evidence and proof front of you for you to believe something, sometimes taking things on faith can be the right thing to do. Hopefully in the not too distant future there will be studies made public and easy to obtain, then hopefully people like I and others who work so hard to research and study this medicine will be vindicated, but I will take no joy from that, rather will rejoice that future sub users will be deterred and save them the health risks and problems that suboxone gives.

Buprenorphine may have been available for decades as someone said but it was not available in the doses we see today and there were hardly any patients on maintenance programmes at the time. Just because something is invented or discovered does not mean we know about it or its dangers to society and individuals. When money is involved then consideration for long term affects is gone right out of the window. Sometimes only way to know long term affects properly are to use patients as trials, or shall I say guinea pigs, which suboxone patients seem to be, but just because people have not seen concrete studies does not mean anything that I have said is untrue. Anything you put in your bodies needs to be tested for its long term health risks, and sometimes where money is involved only way to realize that is to use patients as human trials. But slowly in recent times its coming out and more and more people are thinking twice of using suboxone, this includes doctors too, which is a good sign..

Be well people and I can only hope you will take in what am saying.. Just get yourselves tested for everything there is, if you have been a suboxone user, especially for over a year, particularly when you have stopped using it for the last few to several months and years. Some people believe whatever they are diagnosed with is non-suboxone related so do not go the full distant in eliminating that possibility. But the positive sign is people are now thinking of the suboxone as part of their problems which can arise several months to years later.


p.s backing up is like saying can anybody back up their claim of staying clean off suboxone or beating paws and withdrawals. Or backing up in what they are talking about suboxone. Hopefully in the not too distant future more information will be available to patients and public and they would see that as hardcore legit facts, but at the moment freedom of speech and expression should be allowed...I cannot back up what is not readily available at this moment in time. The way I obtained information was not by internet or print-out stats, but by communication, research, having sources within the suboxone pharmaceutical field and patient results and doctor studies.


Well, thank you for just acknowledging that you cannot back your claims up. If you ever can, then what you have to say would be interesting to hear. If you got information from patient results and doctor studies, then why do you have nothing to reference?

My instincts tell me that you have just gone around and asked lots of people about their experiences and their opinions about Suboxone, and then you have taken all the negative things, explained away and thrown out the positive responses, and arrived at your conclusions. I did tons of research while tapering too and lots of calling around and asking people what their experiences were, and there are plenty of people out there who are more than happy to scare everyone. There are detox places, Ibogaine places, etc. who insist they need to help you or you are doomed to fail.

When you are tapering off Sub, you are already in a shaky headspace, and these scare stories are so toxic and terrifying. I know that, because I was there!! I remember having people negate how much of a struggle it was to get off Suboxone. That made me feel so alone, suspicious of Sub and doctors, and hopeless. The ironic thing now is that I was successful and feel great, and now I have someone negating that. You just can't win.

People, if you want to taper off Suboxone, you can do it. It just takes a while and you may need to go slowly, but your body will adjust and return to 'normal'. It WILL happen. So.....don't spend a whole year terrified, like I did.

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:48 pm 
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dear hessler'. i thank you for wanting us to have a lot of faith in something you are trying to explain. but look in to suboxone' it shows much more faith in what the faith your asking for with little or no evidence. try giving us some more in what is really
working and not what is not. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:40 pm 
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johnboy wrote:
dear hessler'. i thank you for wanting us to have a lot of faith in something you are trying to explain. but look in to suboxone' it shows much more faith in what the faith your asking for with little or no evidence. try giving us some more in what is really
working and not what is not. :)


Johnboy, thank you. What an important point you make. Any sooooo true.

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:04 am 
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and thank you ladder'. i finally got another nice compl-mt and we need much more threads like yours :) :)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Wow...you come SO far....as a total stranger..it may not mean anything...but I am proud and I am on day one (off heroin...just on subs) so there is a light at the end in this story!!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Hi Whatever,

I just want to say that it's really nice of you to chime in to compliment laddertipper's success. She inspires me too! I'm glad that you've found us and I wish you lots of success of your own. There is so much collective wisdom on this site and I hope you stick around and let us know how we can help you!

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:58 pm 
''GodHelpMe, your withdrawal WILL PASS and you will feel better in time.''
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I saw someone posted this Godhelpme, and they are correct! You are getting lovely support here as well as Laddertripper and that is the most important thing in recovery. Stay strong and listen to the positve people that WANT to see you do good.

I am a little unsure why i really did not get a lot of that willingness to help when i first joined. I guess people didnt agree with my method of going around detox from suboxone. I even had one person say.... "Just see how this person does day 5 off everything, let the count down begin, haha" They actually laughed and i didnt say anything to anyone at the time, just shared my story. And so much more b/s that i almost couldnt believe what i was reading from the most suspected NON judgemental place on earth. Well there is sick people everywhere i guess. I was taken a back because here i am sharing my story for the first time to ANYONE. It was kind of a shock. the only reason I am still here, is the couple people who DID show compassion, support and empathy as well as plain old UNDERSTANDING. Because lets be honest, that is why we are all here. And I'm doing quite well as far as still chuggin along being off suboxone. Almost 5 months being off of it, besides a couple slips. So, what i really would like people to see is this very simple concept. People will not always succeed in the way you chose to do so......

Sorry OP and GodHelpME, got a little carried away off topic there. haha However, it is a very important matter that needs to be discussed and also if anyone else has been subjected to this..... they can relate and realize it does no good and it's basically the other persons issue, Not yours. I think its a pissing match the second someone doesnt like what they are reading. Me, I've read stuff where people have suceeded that I wouldnt nesissarily do their method myself, but never have i told those people they were completely wrong for doing so and they are going to FAIL. In fact the opposite, i thought to myself, Good for them, they made it. I'm baffled, still am... so i better stop talking about it. hehe

Ok, so Laddertripper, you totally kick ass girl. 1 YEAR! thats huge. I just got a script today for a month of Klonopin. Mainly for sleep and the crazy stress this month. It is only a temp script. But my question to you is, did Klonopin work as an attacker of PAWS. and how was your sleep with this medication? I'm hoping it will allow me to sleep semi normal once again. I really need it right about now. Remember, I am almost 5 months since i quit the subs, so if you can share some of your experiences 5 months off suboxone while using Klonopin that would give me some pretty good insight from a pretty honest cool member. Have a good week all.


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