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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:14 pm 
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hessler wrote:
The reason why you've made it 1 year is because you've been taking Klonopin/Clonazepam. This has to shown to make withdrawal and PAWS very bearable. Had you never taken this benzo then mostly probably it would have been a much different experience. Unless you was withdrawing from Klonopin or tapering the Klonopin then the suboxone detox has been more then doable for you because of this benzo. Not everybody can take klonopin or any other benzo for a year or so to help suboxone withdrawals and PAWS. Then there is the issue of tapering the kpnopin and coming off that, that may be a even worse experience, so in my opinion I would point the finger at klonopin in helping you making it this far as well as your tapering off the suboxone.

The symptoms you face now such as fibromyalgia and other psychical problems are highly related to the suboxone. I say this because 5 other people were diagnosed with this condition and other symptoms too after they quit suboxone, but they never had these problems prior to starting on suboxone.

I know 3 people personally who still have problems today after quitting suboxone couple of years ago, they tell me they aren't well at all. 1 recently found out she had brain lesions and her doc said this was mostly due to the suboxone. So try to get checked out for that. Have a blood test, a liver function test and a MRI scan. The suboxone creates a lot of psychical problems, do not rule out liver damage as the suboxone does contribute problems to this. Problems can arise several months after quitting suboxone and even after a year or 2. My good friend at meetings claims she is always tired and crummy, she#s been off the suboxone for 15 months, she too tapered to 0.1 after a 3 year use, yet she feels the affects of suboxone..


There is not much we know about the long term damage of suboxone, many people who quit claim of brutal depression lasting for several months, psychical problems which arise later, feeling unmotivated to do anything and never being able to feel the same, thats why so many people relapse or cannot stay clean from the suboxone, the PAWS are just too damn long and people are always in psychical pain. Only now some doctors are realizing this and pushing people to get off suboxone ASAP for their own benefit.

Staying on suboxone for more then 6 months turns you into a ghost and a zombie. You do not feel interested in anything at all and you cannot live a life like that..Am glad you got off the suboxone. We can only warn people of the dangers and lasting damage this opiate can create.

The difference between methadone and suboxone is that methadone PAWS aren't long lasting and do not give you pain for more then couple of months compared to suboxone's. Thats why more and more people are claiming suboxone is the harsher of the 2 long half life opioids.

I hope people will look deeply into suboxone and make the correct decision in coming off or not even staring it in the first place. There aren't many people who have stayed clean for more then 13 months at the max after quitting suboxone. For people not taking a benzo a suboxone detox is grueling and brutal. But the problem is not everybody can get a supply of a benzo for a year or 2 to help with suboxone PAWS.

I hope people read into my statements properly and make an informed decision.

Thank you for your time in reading this.

Bless.


You are one of those people that insists on believing the worst case scenario. I'm sure you find a reason why every success story isn't really a success story.

I actually tapered my Klonopin much lower WHILE I tapered my Suboxone. At one point, I was on 2 mg a day, and by the end of my Sub taper, I was down to .5. After stopping Sub, I tapered even further, to .25 mg, but then I seized and went back to .5. I know I can complete the Klonopin taper if I start a seizure drug.

I never said getting off Sub was easy, because it WASN'T easy at all. However, at this point, I don't believe that I have any lingering effects. FYI, I started having trouble with the fibromyalgia BEFORE I started Suboxone.....so your theory doesn't really make sense.

The brain lesions thing made me chuckle. Is that because of Suboxone too? LOL! Should we blame every ache, pain, and problem on Sub for the rest of our lives? Do you really think that makes sense? If I get cancer at 50, is that because I took Sub?

Thank you for recommending the testing. I've had blood work multiple times, CT of my head, MRI of my abdomen, nerve conduction on my hands, x-rays on my elbows, cortisone injections in my elbows, one spinal tap, and MRI of my myelin sheath. Everything checks out fine. My liver function is also normal.

I am not surprised that many people experience greater physical pain when they stop Suboxone. Many of us ended up of Sub because we started off with a pain condition. That was true in my case. I was taking the Sub for pain, and even though it doesn't eliminate all pain, it does dull it out. You realize that when you stop taking the Sub. Obviously, the original condition will be more noticeable. Again, not surprising and nothing fishy there.

I am not dragging around with PAWS, and I don't buy that .5 mg of Klonopin is the thank for that.

Try not to be such a Chicken Little, Hesser!! The sky isn't falling.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:50 pm 
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6 months on average people feel very bad on suboxone, This indeed varies from each individual but you do not even need any studies to realize the longer you take suboxone the less of a human you feel. EEvery single suboxone user feels the notion of "sub turned on me" yet few will not admit this fact.

The klonopin did help the suboxone detox no matter how low of a dose was involved. You do not need to be a doctor or expert to work that out. It helps with anxiety and sleep and these are some of the major problems people have coming off suboxone and some of the worst problems which make people relapse post-suboxone.


It is recommended to have health checks every 3 months, especially when you have stopped suboxone. Conditions can arise 3-4 years post-suboxone. So please bear that in mind. When the suboxone is stored in the blood it can tend to mask conditions, since it can take a considerably long time for any suboxone to banish from your blood and fatty cells then sometimes tests can be ineffective, so it is recommend to get checked our every 3 months for 3 to 4 years post-suboxone.


Other opiates compared to suboxone are babies in more ways then one.

The anxiety and all the other typical symptoms related to the suboxone are long lasting compared to other opiates, the suboxone gets stuck in your fatty cells, blood and receptors, this is why people experience symptoms for a very long time.

I am not anti-suboxone but pro-living without suboxon. If looking out for peoples health is anti-suboxone then so be it. Studies and research has shown taking suboxone for several months makes you unmotivated, un-human and a ghost. One would rather be off suboxone then on suboxone. Those that are on suboxone right now in their early phase of treatment will soon realize that fact, unless they of course come off it ASAP.

Brain lesions can be caused by suboxone as more then 1 individual has reported this, this is also one of the reasons why PAWS are grueling. 5 people I know personally were diagnosed with fibro and all had taken suboxone, that is no coincidence, their doctors would not have linked that condition with suboxone otherwise. I do not think the doctors can be wrong about that.

There was a person who had taken suboxone for 4 years and is off the suboxone now for 3 years. Today he is suffering with pains, no motivation/depression, sleep issues and has never felt this way before. He has tried all sorts of medications but none has an affect. Because of this his doctor has omitted himself from prescribing suboxone. I will show you his story once I have gotten his permission and hopefully can post the link

In France and the UK recently there was a meeting between doctors and Blue Arrow (makes of generic suboxone) as they concluded patients were struggling to feel happy on this medication and were feeling in withdrawal for a long time coming off the medication/suboxone. The decision they made was to wean off patients as soon as possible and give them blood test aswell as other, that to me and everybody else should be a cause of concern. Now in some parts of Western Europe they have reverted back to the tried and tested which is methadone. They will also now only keep suboxone on the market for certain people in certain circumstances.

Only recently studies are being made about suboxone and the patients who take suboxone, or subutex. This is being done in Europe for the time being as buprenorphine was first approved in that part of the world before the States.. I have my sources so please believe me and trust me on that issue.

I can only advise patients for their own benefit to get off suboxone ASAP, if you have been taking it for a while now then see your doctor and do some health checks and seek any alternatives in coming off suboxone together with weaning down, but studies again have shown weaning down does not make a difference in regards to the duration of suboxone symptoms, psychical problems and the long term damage. What can male a difference is the duration one has been taking suboxone. Those that have been on suboxone treatment for 3 weeks and 2 months still have a chance to get off and not suffer and do any damage to your health.

I hope people will seriously read into this and do more research. I understand its not what people want to know but the truth is always important and goes a long way in preparing people for the future.

I only hope people can come out of this situation and have a better life which does not include suboxone. Like a doctor said " a life on suboxone is no life at all"


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:32 am 
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hessler wrote:
6 months on average people feel very bad on suboxone, This indeed varies from each individual but you do not even need any studies to realize the longer you take suboxone the less of a human you feel. EEvery single suboxone user feels the notion of "sub turned on me" yet few will not admit this fact.

The klonopin did help the suboxone detox no matter how low of a dose was involved. You do not need to be a doctor or expert to work that out. It helps with anxiety and sleep and these are some of the major problems people have coming off suboxone and some of the worst problems which make people relapse post-suboxone.


It is recommended to have health checks every 3 months, especially when you have stopped suboxone. Conditions can arise 3-4 years post-suboxone. So please bear that in mind. When the suboxone is stored in the blood it can tend to mask conditions, since it can take a considerably long time for any suboxone to banish from your blood and fatty cells then sometimes tests can be ineffective, so it is recommend to get checked our every 3 months for 3 to 4 years post-suboxone.


Other opiates compared to suboxone are babies in more ways then one.

The anxiety and all the other typical symptoms related to the suboxone are long lasting compared to other opiates, the suboxone gets stuck in your fatty cells, blood and receptors, this is why people experience symptoms for a very long time.

I am not anti-suboxone but pro-living without suboxon. If looking out for peoples health is anti-suboxone then so be it. Studies and research has shown taking suboxone for several months makes you unmotivated, un-human and a ghost. One would rather be off suboxone then on suboxone. Those that are on suboxone right now in their early phase of treatment will soon realize that fact, unless they of course come off it ASAP.

Brain lesions can be caused by suboxone as more then 1 individual has reported this, this is also one of the reasons why PAWS are grueling. 5 people I know personally were diagnosed with fibro and all had taken suboxone, that is no coincidence, their doctors would not have linked that condition with suboxone otherwise. I do not think the doctors can be wrong about that.

There was a person who had taken suboxone for 4 years and is off the suboxone now for 3 years. Today he is suffering with pains, no motivation/depression, sleep issues and has never felt this way before. He has tried all sorts of medications but none has an affect. Because of this his doctor has omitted himself from prescribing suboxone. I will show you his story once I have gotten his permission and hopefully can post the link

In France and the UK recently there was a meeting between doctors and Blue Arrow (makes of generic suboxone) as they concluded patients were struggling to feel happy on this medication and were feeling in withdrawal for a long time coming off the medication/suboxone. The decision they made was to wean off patients as soon as possible and give them blood test aswell as other, that to me and everybody else should be a cause of concern. Now in some parts of Western Europe they have reverted back to the tried and tested which is methadone. They will also now only keep suboxone on the market for certain people in certain circumstances.

Only recently studies are being made about suboxone and the patients who take suboxone, or subutex. This is being done in Europe for the time being as buprenorphine was first approved in that part of the world before the States.. I have my sources so please believe me and trust me on that issue.

I can only advise patients for their own benefit to get off suboxone ASAP, if you have been taking it for a while now then see your doctor and do some health checks and seek any alternatives in coming off suboxone together with weaning down, but studies again have shown weaning down does not make a difference in regards to the duration of suboxone symptoms, psychical problems and the long term damage. What can male a difference is the duration one has been taking suboxone. Those that have been on suboxone treatment for 3 weeks and 2 months still have a chance to get off and not suffer and do any damage to your health.

I hope people will seriously read into this and do more research. I understand its not what people want to know but the truth is always important and goes a long way in preparing people for the future.

I only hope people can come out of this situation and have a better life which does not include suboxone. Like a doctor said " a life on suboxone is no life at all"


Okay, honestly, I am very interested in what you are saying, and if it is accurate, it absolutely applies to me. I was on Suboxone for 6 years, after all. However, I have no clue where you are getting your information. It's a serious claim to state that Suboxone causes brain lesions. That would be something I should probably know about, but I'm sure you understand that I can't just take your word for it. I'd like to do my own research into your sources.

Thank you,
laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:06 pm 
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i spoke with my suboxone doctor last week about my pain in the morning that can last up to 4 hours. i suggested i have fibro- and he agreed with no issue that subs could not have caused this. he set me up for a visit with my family doctor.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:17 pm 
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well a little thought'. medications in any form can cause side effects and even for a life time and people that never herd of suboxone no this. so yes some people will get life sick from" any med and this includes suboxone. i hope this is just a factor in life experience it self.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:30 pm 
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hi hessler'. i also no about 5 people that are sick on suboxone and maybe foe life.
but i also new in the past 2 years about 50 people that are very sick or all ready dead that
were never on suboxone from not being treated with subs it self. so then again" witch is better of the 2 evils?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:35 pm 
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The majority of medicines are well known in the medical and pharmacy industry. The side affects are more or less known and written down as warnings. The suboxone has not been around long enough to be researched into where symptoms and psychical damage is concerned, only now this is being done, particularly in Europe.. The doctors and pharmacist are getting very concerned now and in many towns and cities in Europe they have stopped prescribing this medication.

No medication so far as suboxone has given patients problems for the long term and had unanswered questions about their problems. Patients tend to believe once they are off a medication for a many a month they should not have any issues from that particular medicine, but are surprised to realize and notice that they aren't themselves after several months and over a year. Even many doctors do not point the finger at suboxone, but the more time goes on the more the patients and doctors alike are waking up the reality that indeed suboxone does contribute the the problems patients have post-suboxone. Other medicines and even opiates do not give patients the problems the suboxone does in the sense of their duration, nor feel the symptoms for several months as the suboxone does. The methadone symptoms are very tough but after 3 to 4 months you are more or less psychical fine and mentally alert and normal, but for suboxone its dissimilar though at the same time are similar in many ways too. The major issue is the duration of problems and the fact that psychical problems are arising from suboxone which not even methadone gave to patients.

There is also talk on several websites and forums about suboxone killing some of your brain cells and therefore stopping endorphins from producing, hence leading to depression for the long term if not permanently, that not even the latest anti depressants can remedy. Another major concern is problems arising even 1 year later, which many patients in recent times are linking it to the suboxone use in their past.


Last edited by hessler on Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Nobody has to accept what I am telling you but all I ask is to research for yourself, get yourself checked out and seek alternatives, for your own sanity and health Taking my word can be more beneficial then not. You have nothing to lose by getting as many tests as possible.

One of the reasons the health issues and damage from suboxone aren't too well known is because patients do not seem to take it so seriously enough to get themselves checked out. Another reason is they revert back to an opiate and many also are still continuing to take the suboxone.

Yes people have died from other medications and have had all sorts of problems from them. but majority of these medications are well known and lots of studies have already been done. So for that it comes down to choice form the individual in what they want to do and how they want to take that particular medicine.

In regards to suboxone studies are continuing but intensified only recently, especially in Europe. Reports of psychical problems, depression and symptoms creeping up even after 1 year are causing the medical industry concern and therefore studies are being done and decisions are being made. It would not be made widely to the public for various reasons, but the right to information and freedom to obtain statistics can come into the equation.

Some doctors have been concerned about their patients unable to stay clean from any drugs when they come off the suboxone. Since there have been more then 1 patient complaining of the same symptoms for a very long time (1-3 years post-suboxone) the doctors have eventually taken these issues upstairs, and meanwhile have struck themselves off from prescribing the medication.

A patient's age can have an affect but then again patients ranging from 18 to 25 have reported the exact same symptoms as the ones over 25. The patients who already have issues prior to suboxone can be more at risk but again studies show even the most healthy people are being diagnosed with conditions which have surprised doctors. All where suboxone has come into play.

If there is any more advice I can give is that to get yourself checked out as much as possible, be honest to your physicians, doctors and nurses, tell them about suboxone and even point them to forums. Taking my word can in a way better your life. Nobody is obliged to take my word but there is no harm in researching in what I am telling you and getting yourselves checked over, to give you a peace of mind. who knows you may even thank me one day.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:26 pm 
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hessler wrote:
Nobody has to accept what I am telling you but all I ask is to research for yourself, get yourself checked out and seek alternatives, for your own sanity and health Taking my word can be more beneficial then not. You have nothing to lose by getting as many tests as possible.

One of the reasons the health issues and damage from suboxone aren't too well known is because patients do not seem to take it so seriously enough to get themselves checked out. Another reason is they revert back to an opiate and many also are still continuing to take the suboxone.

Yes people have died from other medications and have had all sorts of problems from them. but majority of these medications are well known and lots of studies have already been done. So for that it comes down to choice form the individual in what they want to do and how they want to take that particular medicine.

In regards to suboxone studies are continuing but intensified only recently, especially in Europe. Reports of psychical problems, depression and symptoms creeping up even after 1 year are causing the medical industry concern and therefore studies are being done and decisions are being made. It would not be made widely to the public for various reasons, but the right to information and freedom to obtain statistics can come into the equation.

Some doctors have been concerned about their patients unable to stay clean from any drugs when they come off the suboxone. Since there have been more then 1 patient complaining of the same symptoms for a very long time (1-3 years post-suboxone) the doctors have eventually taken these issues upstairs, and meanwhile have struck themselves off from prescribing the medication.

A patient's age can have an affect but then again patients ranging from 18 to 25 have reported the exact same symptoms as the ones over 25. The patients who already have issues prior to suboxone can be more at risk but again studies show even the most healthy people are being diagnosed with conditions which have surprised doctors. All where suboxone has come into play.

If there is any more advice I can give is that to get yourself checked out as much as possible, be honest to your physicians, doctors and nurses, tell them about suboxone and even point them to forums. Taking my word can in a way better your life. Nobody is obliged to take my word but there is no harm in researching in what I am telling you and getting yourselves checked over, to give you a peace of mind. who knows you may even thank me one day.


Hessler, I honestly can say that I have many concerns of my own when it comes to long term Sub use. It sent my brain through a crazy roller coaster and getting off it was super difficult. I know you think that my taper/jump was only easy because I was taking .5 mg of Klonopin, but I also took a whole year to taper off 8 mg and for much of that taper, I felt pretty yucky. The length of the w/d symptoms after even tiny drops was a shock to me.

I do think there's a whole lot more that we will learn about this med as time goes on. I'd never say that what you are claiming is wrong. I just want to know where you are getting it from. So pretty, pretty, pretty please, can you point me in the direction of your sources? I am willing to read and educate myself, but I cannot find any of this stuff that you are talking about.

Thank you much!
laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Ok so hesslers posts are freaking me out a bit. I'm starting to worry my withdrawal will never go away. Someone please confirm or debunk his statements. I beg you. My life depends on my withdrawal symptoms going away. I am a student in school in one of the most important semesters of my life. Some of hesslers statements seem like they could be valid. But who knows.
My brother did research for me in his medical journals and told me the worst of it is 3 weeks to a month but symptoms can last up to 3 months... All this info coming towards me is freaking me out. I'm so nervous. I can't feel like shit longer than a few weeks. I hope I am better under one month. If this lasts I won't be able to focus on my studies and I will fail out. I'm on academic probation so this is my last chance to get good grades or I'm kicked out. The two hardest things after sobriety to do in my life have fallen in the same time frame. I came here to gain confidence and guidance. But I only fear this more now...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:35 pm 
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Dear Godhelpme,

this person (hessler) seems to be kind of a crackpot. they have made many claims in the past day or two but here on the forum we typically like to back up statement like "studies show" with links to the studies. hessler has not cited a single source. also read around the forum from people who have experienced what you are going through. see what they did and how long w/d lasted etc..

feel better

-glen b.


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Ok guys, this Hessler dude is a PERFECT example of the balancing act that the moderators are having to deal with all the time.

We want people to be able to post, share their story and share information that might be helpful to addicts and Sub patients.

But then we have someone come along and present a bunch of scary "facts" with nothing to back it up, and now we have a vulnerable member, who is in withdrawals, being freaked out by that.

So I Googled "bupernorphine brain lesions" and other than a bunch of "Did you know Bupe causes brain lesions" spam on other internet forums, this is what I came up with:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10530511

Animals are commonly given opioid analgetics such as buprenorphine for post-operative pain management. In this study, the effect of the analgetic buprenorphine, a partial mu receptor agonist and kappa receptor antagonist, on L-DOPA-induced contralateral rotation was measured in 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) treated rats. Male Sprague-Dawley rats received dopamine-depleting brain lesions by infusion of 6-OHDA into the medial forebrain bundle. After the procedure, buprenorphine was administered (430 microg/kg, s.c.) to 17 of 54 animals. Three weeks after 6-OHDA treatment, animals were given benserazide HCI (25 mg/kg, i.p.) and L-DOPA (4 mg/kg, i.p.). Contralateral rotations were monitored for 2 h. Animals receiving buprenorphine had significantly higher rates of rotation as compared with non-buprenorphine-treated animals (P = 0.023). The results suggest that buprenorphine sensitizes animals to the effects of L-DOPA.

So if you are a rat taking LDOPA, stay away from Bupe I guess.

Please remember that Buprenorphine has been available to treat pain in Europe for DECADES. And far from Bupe being proven to be harmful and being pulled from the market, it has in fact been expanded in recent years with new products being approved: butrans, probuphine, etc.

GodHelpMe, your withdrawal WILL PASS and you will feel better in time.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:10 pm 
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I guess you're right. Thanks glen bee. Also thanks ladder for sharing more of your experience on my post. You have helped me ease a bit more. I've seen mixed views but any success is worthy to note.
I'm almost a week in. I'm excited. I understand if hesslers statements are true that he is helping but man is it cruel I'd he/she is pulling complete bs from their ass.
I'm glad I can count on the people on this site to boost my mood.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:22 am 
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Hessler can not point us to any source of scientific information because Hessler does not have any scientific source for her claims. She says that you should do your own research, but is really hoping that you just blindly follow her opinion because her scary-sounding "facts" come from anti-sub discussion forums and her own conjecture. Hessler tries to sound well-educated about suboxone, but her ignorance is glaring when she makes statements like this:

"Studies and research has shown taking suboxone for several months makes you unmotivated, un-human and a ghost. One would rather be off suboxone then on suboxone. Those that are on suboxone right now in their early phase of treatment will soon realize that fact, unless they of course come off it ASAP."

Apart from the obvious grammatical errors contained therein, the statement does not meet the standard one would expect of a scientific thought, let alone a scientific citation. Studies have shown that taking suboxone for several months makes you a ghost? What kind of scientist would begin research with that hypothesis? And, more importantly, where is a link to any of the research?

I don't know what agenda Hessler brings to this forum. My best guess is that she is a devoted NA member who is disgruntled that suboxone has worked for many people, and that the AA/NA program is not the only useful tool for addicts. Remember, the hard-core members of NA think that if you are not working "the program", you are not truly in recovery. I believe that Hessler only cares that her claims scare people away from suboxone, not that they are accurate. To her, the end justifies her means.

I also think that "Hessler" is the most recent reincarnation of No Alibi or oclafsti, who were banned for spreading scary misinformation without any evidence to back them up. Even if she has gotten wise and her new handle comes from a different IP address, I still think it is the same person. What clues me in is that she never engages in conversation, just a lecture. She never responds to the experience of anyone else, only reiterates her own unsustainable "facts". And she never, ever includes a link to evidence that would back her claims.

Please don't mistake my irritation with Hessler's posts as being harsh or judgmental toward the posts of anyone else. I don't care about grammar and scientific or scholarly writing in our discussions with each other on this forum. I'm not a perfect writer and I don't expect perfect from others, only good enough to understand what is being said. HOWEVER, when a poster implies that they have a certain level of expertise, that they have a body of knowledge based on scientific study and legitimate research, they should be able to make intelligent-sounding credible statements, backed by cited scientific evidence.

I WELCOME information about suboxone. There is a lack of knowledge about the possible long-term side effects of long-term use. That concerns me. I don't view suboxone through rose-colored glasses and I appreciate reading about the experiences of other people. I do take issue with scaremongers who think that the anonymity of the internet gives them a free pass to spout misinformation at vulnerable people.

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:16 am 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
I don't know what agenda Hessler brings to this forum. My best guess is that she is a devoted NA member who is disgruntled that suboxone has worked for many people, and that the AA/NA program is not the only useful tool for addicts. Remember, the hard-core members of NA think that if you are not working "the program", you are not truly in recovery. I believe that Hessler only cares that her claims scare people away from suboxone, not that they are accurate. To her, the end justifies her means.

I also think that "Hessler" is the most recent reincarnation of No Alibi or oclafsti, who were banned for spreading scary misinformation without any evidence to back them up. Even if she has gotten wise and her new handle comes from a different IP address, I still think it is the same person. What clues me in is that she never engages in conversation, just a lecture. She never responds to the experience of anyone else, only reiterates her own unsustainable "facts". And she never, ever includes a link to evidence that would back her claims.

Amy


My sentiments exactly! This is simply another example of NoAlibi/Ironic behavoir. Making statements like she has based on nothing but the dreams she had last night.

GodHelpMe, you are doing great! You are in the right place for support. You are going to do great in school because you are motivated and determined! Keep your head up and know that you are supported here!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:04 am 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Ok guys, this Hessler dude is a PERFECT example of the balancing act that the moderators are having to deal with all the time.

We want people to be able to post, share their story and share information that might be helpful to addicts and Sub patients.

But then we have someone come along and present a bunch of scary "facts" with nothing to back it up, and now we have a vulnerable member, who is in withdrawals, being freaked out by that.

So I Googled "bupernorphine brain lesions" and other than a bunch of "Did you know Bupe causes brain lesions" spam on other internet forums, this is what I came up with:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10530511

Animals are commonly given opioid analgetics such as buprenorphine for post-operative pain management. In this study, the effect of the analgetic buprenorphine, a partial mu receptor agonist and kappa receptor antagonist, on L-DOPA-induced contralateral rotation was measured in 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) treated rats. Male Sprague-Dawley rats received dopamine-depleting brain lesions by infusion of 6-OHDA into the medial forebrain bundle. After the procedure, buprenorphine was administered (430 microg/kg, s.c.) to 17 of 54 animals. Three weeks after 6-OHDA treatment, animals were given benserazide HCI (25 mg/kg, i.p.) and L-DOPA (4 mg/kg, i.p.). Contralateral rotations were monitored for 2 h. Animals receiving buprenorphine had significantly higher rates of rotation as compared with non-buprenorphine-treated animals (P = 0.023). The results suggest that buprenorphine sensitizes animals to the effects of L-DOPA.

So if you are a rat taking LDOPA, stay away from Bupe I guess.

Please remember that Buprenorphine has been available to treat pain in Europe for DECADES. And far from Bupe being proven to be harmful and being pulled from the market, it has in fact been expanded in recent years with new products being approved: butrans, probuphine, etc.

GodHelpMe, your withdrawal WILL PASS and you will feel better in time.


This study actually has nothing to do with brain lesions caused by buprenorphine.

In a nutshell all's they did was get 57 rats, inject them all with a neurotoxin directly into their brains to give them lesions, then put them on buprenorphine treatment for 2 weeks. If you thought those rats hadn't had enough of an ordeal, they then injected them with two drugs that induced involuntary seizures strong enough twist and contort their bones, then killed them and examined their spines to find which group suffered the most damage.

And for a study done on animals, that's probably a 2/5 on the brutality stakes. At least they got some bupe to help them out. Animal testing is a sadist's playground. Could anyone but a psychopath be able to perform a test like that?

Sometimes we forget exactly what animals have to go through for our medications to be rigorously tested before being found safe for human use. I feel sad reading some of the primate studies :(

Anyway ....

There is absolutely zero evidence that buprenorphine causes brain lesions. It's a crock of shit concocted by some internet scare monger.

Recovery groups are known to attract crackpots... the internet does as well... This forum is a recovery group on the internet. We gunna get some crackpots.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:55 am 
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Laddertipper -

Do you want me to move Hesslers posts out of your thread? This was supposed to be a celebration of your one year off Sub and now it's something else entirely. Please let me know!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:13 pm 
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i herd another storry about a person in vermont that died in 3 weeks on suboxone. they said the suboxone caused some kind of blood cancer or some thing. i'm just saying this is some mors bull shit i have to listin to :lol: oh ya HURRAY/ HURRAY LADDERTIPPER.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:32 pm 
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First of all I have not posted on this website before couple of days ago.

Secondly I have clearly said the suboxone "can" cause so and so. I did not state this as a fact for every single suboxone user, so please do not take any of my statements out of context. I have claimed there has been more then 1 patient claiming of same symptoms and being diagnosed with conditions linked to the suboxone, there does not need to be evidence front of you to accept that, though I can understand where your coming from. Just like there is no evidence for God yet some believe in this being yet others want and need proof, but they are totally different matters with same principles. So you take it on faith, thats what I have implied. I never stated anything of complete fact but for you take my word in what I have said.


As for sources I wish I can show you concrete evidence right now but when I tell you to trust me then I truly mean that. I have communicated with professionals in the medical and pharmacy industry including prescribing doctors and manufactures of suboxone. The studies have been gathering and the information from doctors and everybody involved with suboxone including patients and ex-patients reveals what I have already implied. Now not all of this information will suddenly appear all over on the Internet. It was not easy obtaining this information and not easy being connected to such sources. Having personally spoken to doctors and physicians alike there is more then reliable data in what I have said so far.

Some of the information is on forums yes.. If you type brain lesions and suboxone you will see few articles about people linking suboxone with brain lesions, including brain damage too. But my sources are not only forums and articles but psychical sources where by speaking to patients first hand and doctors alike, and making conclusions from their experience. If we are to be realistic then people should know there does not have to be a list of information on the internet or scientific concrete proof to show details as fact. Sources are not always founded on the internet. Like I said in my other posts judging by research, communicating with patients, doctors, suboxone professionals and having sources in the medical field is enough detail to imply what I have said is valid enough. It will be naive to assume you need information right there front of you to see it as proof.

I also said this is in the in the early stages of suboxone studies so there of course would be skepticism in what I am saying, which is quite understandable. I also understand there needs to be concentrate proof right front of you in order you to accept the studies are backed up, but just because you do not see this date front of you does not mean it is not facts...Everytime an issue of any nature is discussed of anything it will always start like this, without psychical evidence to show everybody. It always starts off like this.. The studies happening right now and the information I obtained was and is not from the internet but face to face communication and looking at statistics within the medical field which is not forwarded on the internet just yet...I have no agenda at all, please take my word on that. I also have not said everything as absolute fact, but merely have said the suboxone can cause so and so symptom and condition based on patients experience and the doctors diagnoses...Not every single patient of suboxone gets checked out and not all who get diagnosed put forth their experience on the internet.

If you read around forums you'll see many people speak of the exact same experiences but because some people look for hardcore evidence front of them they tend to point the finger on something else, that in itself is very dangerous. You truly do not need virtual sources to accept what is going on is factual. It has to be taken on faith at the moment. As patients you should note down what other patients are talking about and this does not mean visiting anti-suboxone websites.

The only sources that I can point out to you at this moment in time are internet forums, the past and the present, where patients speak about the issues that I have pointed out so far.

My concrete sources come from communicating with patients first hand, connections withing the prescribing suboxone field, doctors, key workers, data which doctors have, hospital results shown by patients, research done by me and others outside of the internet and few other ways and means of obtaining information. Like I said there does not have to be a list all over the internet for people to accept everything I have said, there does not have to be evidence right there front of you for you to accept everything as facts but it does not mean you ignore it either. I have been researching everything connected to suboxone for the last 6 years, and everything in what I have said is based on the research I have done and the people I have met and the information I have been given.

Again I would stress that I have not spoken about everything as being scientific proven of facts as the way you want to see facts. But there is enough evidence out there considering the time frame buprenorphine has been available, that suggest there is much cause for concern. There is enough evidence for you to even read about over the Internet to realize it can be factual and truthful. For some people evidence means studies available to all the public, but some experiences of patients is enough, again it comes down to faith and what you want to believe. I never expected everybody to accept what I am telling you, but also not to discard it. I never implied anybody should go by me as a source, but to take my word and think carefully before disregarding everything I have said thus far..


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:49 pm 
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Dear hessler,

Please make your own hate spew threads instead of mucking up everybody elses.

Thanks,
Gb


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