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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:56 am 
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@hope,
I did drop out of high school 5 months before finishing. :) Got a job instead, that was a long time ago. People use to do that back then in the late 70's. That sounds like a long time ago, doesn't it.

Yesterday was very frustrating. I was in a bad place. I'm done with the Ambien, I tried it twice with no luck. I haven't used it in 2 days. I will get rid of it. The only other thing I've used is Clonidine this past 2 weeks, that's it.

It's impossible for me to go to the gym with this cold/flu. I have a head and chest cold and getting little to no sleep my immunities are at a all time low. If and when I can I will get back to the gym. I agree, that's the best thing for me.

For now I have to get rid of this cold. It just keeps getting worse. I can't afford to drain my body anymore than it is.

I haven't given up, yesterday was really messed up. I have to go into to work for a few hours this morning. Nothing physical this time. Just paper work.
I don't know about you but this weather is really depressing. Another 4-6" of snow on the ground yesterday and temps from 0-10F.

Thanks for your support, I haven't packed it in,

Gary


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:00 pm 
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Reprieve brought up a good idea. Try changing your sleep patterns.

After a good bit of trial and error, I finally found my new sleep pattern was 5:00am until about 8am. Yes, it sucked ass that I had to stay awake until 5am before laying down, but tossing and turning like a lunatic from 11pm until 5am wasn't helping me at all. Actually, if anything, it was making matters worse.

Once I established a sleep pattern, I started moving my bedtime ahead by 15 minutes or so every week in an attempt to retrain my dumbass brain how to sleep. It was a long process, but it worked.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Hey Romeo,
So did you have the same trouble sleeping as I am having? This is brutal. I'm amazed that the body can stay awake this long. A couple hours here and there. Some days with zero.

That's how I got sick. Run down and exhausted.

Yesterday I tried to take a nap. But again I had to take a clonidine. I slept maybe 2 hours. That was late afternoon. Night time, forget it, nothing again. Sure can get frustrating like you said. Toss and turn for hours before finally getting up and wait for the sun to come out or in our case, the snow to fall and freezing cold.

I was at the Docs today and got an inhaler and some antibiotic for my cold. He's worried I might get pneumonia .
Thanks for your help,

Gary.


Last edited by iwilldothis on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Yeah, my sleep was about as screwed up as yours and yes, it was brutal trying to live day to day with only 2 or 3 hours of sleep.

I took 5 weeks off of work to deal with my Suboxone wd and I remember when I went back to work, I was still only getting to sleep by 5am or so. I remember this clearly because I had to ask my boss to shift my start time back. He knew I was detoxing off Suboxone and once I explained to him that my only sleep was coming between 5am and 8am or so, he said to come in when I wanted. I coulda kissed him!! lol

I don't remember an exact time-line of how my sleep improved, but I remember having to attend a corporate function at 90 days off Suboxone. This function included me having to travel to Cleveland and stay overnight in a motel. For some reason, I remember staying awake in that motel room until 3:30am or so before I slept.

I joined this forum at about 4.5 months off Suboxone and to the best of my recollection, I was falling asleep around 1am or 2am at that time.

Right at the 9.5 month mark, I remember my sleep was pretty much back to normal. I remember it because that's when I had my first slip.

I'm not sure why you're taking such a shit kicking when it comes to sleep, or why I did either, but I suspect it has something to do with us not being 20 or 30 years old when we quit. I think the sheer volume of years we spent ON drugs didn't help us and, as weird as this may seem, I think the fact that I used to work shift work for many years dinked me too.

Here's the best advice I have for you about your sleep issue......don't fight it. Work with it, continue to be patient and coax it back normal. Remember, we spent a lot of years ON drugs fucking our brains up nicely, it only stands to reason that we're going to have to pay that damn piper a tidy little sum before we're right again.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:18 pm 
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Thanks Romeo,

Believe it or not hearing your story gives me hope. I think your right, abusing our brain for well over 30 years could be an issue. And not being young when we quit may be a disadvantage. There is a lot of healing needed. Shift work definitly screws with your sleep over the years.
It seems everyone here was getting some sleep after stopping Suboxone. I was beginning to get worried. I could handle geting 3 hours a night. I 've had more with no sleep at all. Trying to get some sleep without an aid right now is impossible. I don't plan on taking anything for more than 1 to 2 days at a time if I can ever find something that lets me sleep more that 1-3 hours. I don't want to but I've gone almost 2 days with no sleep 3 times trying to crash on my own.
I know this is not the best way to go but getting no sleep at all will put me in the ground. Once I get rid of this cold I will get back to the gym. It would also be nice to get rid of this f**k**g winter. We haven't had a break since the end of November. I have never seen a winter like this in my life. It was -4F here this morning. Then it warmed up to a balmy temp of 7F but feels like -6F. The 14 day forecast doesn't go above freezing yet. That's been depressing.

I've tried changing the time I go to bed. I have been lucky to get an hour. I will still play around with that though. I'm usually so tired I figure I should be able to fall asleep, but nope.

Thanks again for your support and hearing your story my friend, I was getting worried. I am aware that sleep is the last thing to come back but it seems that most people can at least get to sleep.
I was trying to be patient with it but when I got sick I knew I was in trouble.

Gary


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:38 pm 
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Have you tried a small amount of alcohol? Nothing more than a beer, maybe half.. or glass of wine, or shot or whiskey.

I do remember one time I tried to get clean off of everything. Out of all things, I think the marijuana is what caused my wicked insomnia. I only say this because other attempts at an opiate only detox and after a week or so I was sleeping again semi normal. Anyway, when I gave up pot, I went three days without sleep (And they say there is no physical addiction to pot!) and then when I could get it it was as you guys were describing. What I did, and I am by no means saying it was safe or that I recommend it... Just that I did it.. I would take Valerian Root (The max dose + 50% the addict in me what can I say) 3x the recommended Unisom (not the diphenhydramine formula, the other) (Again, not smart but hey not the most dangerous drug I ever binged on) Max dose of Melatonin and would have half a beer.

That would get me about 5-6 hrs. Again, not smart and in no way healthy. Just showing the lengths I had to go to get some rest. I work in IT for a medical facility so I had to be sharp at work and had little slack... Nothing in that mix had much "hang over" in the morning so once I woke it was fine. Just got used to the news casters that came on at 430am. Eventually I was getting more and more sleep...

Hope you're hanging in there. We love ya,

John

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:52 pm 
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I'm always a little nervous talking about my wd with folks on the forum because my wd seems to have been a little more extreme than most and I hate to "project" my wd experience onto anyone else, so I'm glad you didn't mind me sharing my sleep issues while getting off Suboxone with you. I think the reason I finally decided to relate my sleep issues to you is because I remember when I was going through it, all I wanted was some kind of answer as to WTF was going on and how long it would last. During my wd, I honestly thought I had permanently buggered my brain up in a big way and there were times I was terrified I would never get better, but I never gave up and eventually I got better. Make no mistake, getting off Suboxone and surviving the wd was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but I fucking did it!!! I know you can do it, too.

I'll tell ya this, too....I think it may be time to go to your Primary Care Physician and ask him for some help in getting some sleep. I wonder if he can safely up your dose of Clonidine? Clonidine (the blood pressure medication) is about the only thing, outside of Xanax, that helped me early on in my wd to sleep. Like you, I was scared out of my mind to use benzo's so I used the Xanax sparingly and actually ended up throwing them away. Clonidine is pretty safe, though. It's non-addicting. I stayed on Clonidine for months and months and had no trouble stopping them. My doctor also tried me on Amitryptiline (sp?) (some kind of anti-depressant that makes people sleepy?). It never did do anything for me, but it may help you? Like I said, I think a visit to your doctor may be in order. Maybe he can give you something safe to help you sleep.

I also discovered that eating a snack right before bed helped me sleep. To the best of my knowledge, eating releases our natural opiates. No lie, I would eat a few handfuls of potato chips, a bunch of frozen Reese's Cups and follow it with a swig of Coke and it would help me sleep. To this day, if I wake up and can't get back to sleep, I eat some tater chips, some Reese's Cups, a good swig of Coke and off to bed I go. You'd think chocolate and sugar would wire you awake, but somehow it helps me sleep?

Damn I wish I could give you better answers to help with your sleep, but this is all I've got, man.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:07 am 
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Hey Gary,

Dang, I'm so sorry you are still feeling so bad! You're right, I'm absolutely sure that the reason you got sick was the lack of sleep and huge hit you took on your body from it. Sleep is so necessary to healing our body, brain, and immune system. You don't ever really think about it until you don't get enough!

Maybe those antibiotics will knock this thing out pretty quick. Let's hope so anyway.

I also think you are making a good decision with the ambien. I had a pretty good run on that crap for a few years. By the end of it I was taking anywhere from 3-5 per night. It's not a good thing to get started on if you have addiction issues. The thing with ambien is that it only last for about 4 hours, max. And if you have trouble staying asleep, it's not the way to go. There are much safer things out there. The amitryptaline Romeo mentioned may be worth a shot. I took that when I was pregnant with my last child for RLS and sleep issues. It didn't work well for me, as it seemed to make the RLS worse, but it did make me extremely tired! I know it is safe, as I got it while pregnant and my young neice is prescribed it also. It may or may not help you, but it wouldn't hurt to try it.

Whatever happens, you at least know that it WILL eventually get better. Our bodies are amazing things. We can screw them up to extreme degrees, and they will still heal themselves! A year from now you are going to look back on this thread and thank God that you held on through this trial and made it through to the other side of it! It's just like waiting on spring. Right now it seems that winter will never end. There's snow on the ground, you haven't seen the grass in months, and every time you think it's getting warmer you get slammed with another storm. But one day, you will look outside and see those first spring flowers peaking through the snow. That will be just the thing you need to boost your spirits and realize that spring is closer than you think!

Hang on brother! Spring is coming!

Q :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:12 am 
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@Reprieve,
I haven't tried any alcohol yet, I have thought of it. I use to be a heavy drinker but that was a long time ago. That's not saying I haven't tied one on every so often, usually for a reason though. (party, wedding) before it was just to drink. I have that part of my life under control. I'm not a real big wine drinker but I may try a glass of wine at night. Suppose to be good for you :wink:
I was/am a beer drinker, so if the wine isn't the answer maybe a beer would help. I am open to all suggestions.
That's quite the concotion you used but at least it got you some sleep. I know there is a lot of healing left to do and with the help I have received from all of you has given me some confidence back to continue on.

Thank you Reprieve,

Gary

@Romeo,

I'm glad you talked to me about your WD and sleep issues. I was beginning to think I was alone with what I was going through. It's amazing how the mental aspect of this can get you down to a point you think you are unique. I haven't seen or read of anyone quite like us not being able to get any sleep.
You've just recharged my batteries by letting me know I have hope of getting it all back. I have to admit I thought maybe I have done too much damage already. But your living proof that eventually, with a lot of fight, it can be done. You must be one strong dude.
I did go see my Family Physician yesterday. He knows me very well as I have never hid anything from him this past 15 years. He agreed to get rid of the Ambien also. But he did say I need to sleep to heal. We talked a great odds how we can go about this. He is well aware of my addictions and how addicting most sleeping pills are. Battling this cold is making things harder. Along with this inhaler (Salbutamol) and some potent antibiotics Im hoping to make some headway soon in with it.
We talked a great deal about getting some sleep. He did prescribe me a different sleeping pill. Again this is for short term use, called Zopiclone. Last night I had probably the best sleep in weeks. Ok it wasn't 8 hours but I think I got 5 hours, solid. Haven't had that since I started this. I woke up feeling ok, not drugged or anything.
I will be in touch with my Family Physician soon as he told me to call him at any time to discuss how I'm doing. He told me we still have many options to try if this doesn't work.
He is the one that gave me the clonidine at the beginning. I already take BP pills. I did ask him if the clonidine may get my BP too low but he said short term I will be ok. I never asked if if I can dowuble the clonidine. So far that was the best way for me to get some rest. All the othere sleeping aids failed. Its funny you mention snacking at night. I've always had a weak spot for that. I am or was a night time food junkie :)

The answers you have given me here are what I needed to here. I was feeling pretty hopeless .

Thank you Romeo


@Q
I agree with you, it was getting little to no sleep, moving a griend move after being awake 40 hours and moving in the freezing cold all day. Then the following week I had committed going in to work to help out. Again with little sleep. A few days before I was to go ack I started getting this cold. Well it was full blown by the Thursday, which wasn't to bad as I worked mostly out of my old office. But Friday I was in mill. That was very demanding, physical and cold. We were out there all day, 14 hours. That kinda finished me.

I went through the weekend hoping I could rest and fight this thing but with lack of sleep I didn't stand a chance. I went in work Monday morning, lasted 2 hours and went to see my doctor. He gave me all those meds we've been talking about and this morning I definitely feel a little refreshed.
I honestly do not to want to use sleeping pills and am willeng to battle through this but being so sick I really have no choice for now. This will be shirt term. I won't get hooked on these, that I can guarantee you. Shake this cold and get on with the fight.

That Ambien was nasty. I would get 1 hour of sleep. I tried it twice with the same result. OF course, it had to go under your tongue. I got rid of it.
I will discuss amitryptaline with my doc. He has been great with me and listens to my concerns. I know my body is restless all day but gets worse at night. I'm always moving my feet or changing positions all day long.
But it's like you said, it seems winter will never end here. Spring would sure boost my spirits. To be able to get outside and be comfortable doing so, ahhhhhhhhh. :)

Thank you Q, you guys and gals are the best friends a guy could have.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:33 am 
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Will , im not a tapper nor ready to jump, however i just wanted to saythat in the time I've bn here at this forum, I've not seen a more brave , strong willed, fighter as you..You are going to make it man..and your thread will inspire others who read it months and years later..to go though with all this pain just amazes me. You want this no dought ...keep up the good fight. Im a 70's "KID" too..we did grow up in a great time..oh and the music!!lol..just wanted you to know im rooting for you man..Go go go.....raz 55....


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:15 am 
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Thanks razor53,

I just hope I don't scare anyone who may want to do the same and get off drugs altogether. I know everyone has different experiences with WD - PAWS and for me getting sick in the process made this very difficult to continue. But with the positive feedback and support from everyone here has kept me going. Without that I can't honestly say I would still be fighting.

This Forum has the most amazing people who really do care about you. I've been blown away by how much support we all get.

Thanks again razor, this place is amazing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:01 pm 
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I am so glad to hear you got some rest. 5 may not be the best, but it will help you to heal that's for sure. I would continue what you are doing, or did, and see if that's what it takes to get you back on track. Now I am going to go off the rails a bit, but I am a big believer in the power of the mind.

Anyways, if you should need to try something else to augment, consider this: binaural beats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

It takes about 20-30 min and to do it correctly you need to be able to have a very quite place where no one will bother you while you try to relax. I discovered it a few years back and have tried it. If only as a placebo effect, it does help you to reach a meditative state. There are several different "songs" you can listen to (it's best with stereo headphones) that can create many different desired outcomes.

In a nut shell it is sounds that you listen to that are created a specific wavelengths used to induce certain reactions in the brain.

If you read up and find that you want to give it a try, let me know and I'll post more info or maybe even create a new thread somewhere so I can keep all the info gathered in one spot. I was rally into it for awhile and there is much on this subject all over the net.

I also wanted to mention that I will be going out of town for the next week or so, so if I don;t post much or often, don't worry about me... it's planned and NOT a relapse. I am a little anxious as this will be the first vacation that I have been on in 20 years without drugs... I scared for some reason and very excited at the same time. I am scared just because it will be different. I always used the excuse of using MORE on vacation because of the stress of being around all that family for a week and no real escape like going home. I am excited because I will finally be able to be there 100% for my family. I'll actually get to EXPERIENCE the vacation instead of just being there if you know what I mean. My family deserves it.

I am also going snow skiing for the first time in my life. I hope I don't get hurt, or hurt badly I should say as I know I'll be sore...

Anyways, If I don't talk with you guys tonight, I'll sure talk at you guys soon!!

Good luck Gary...


Much Love,

Reprieve

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:04 pm 
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Hey, 5 hours of sleep, nice!! If you can string a couple of those together, it'll surely help you to start beating that cold.

I'm so glad you have a good family doctor. Like you, I've always been upfront with my family doctor and he really went out of his way to help me through my Suboxone wd.

I agree, I haven't seen too many people who suffer sleep disturbances like you and I while coming off Suboxone, but it does seem a bit more common with people coming off pain pills or H. I think in all my time on this forum, I've only ran into one or two others whose sleep was screwed up as yours or mine from Suboxone wd. We're just special, I guess? :wink:

As for me being a strong dude, I don't know as I would go that far, but I am one wicked stubborn SOB!! Once I set my mind to something, I'll move heaven and earth to get there.

@Reprieve---good luck skiing, man. Good luck getting off the chair lifts without making a fool of yourself, too. lol

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:34 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
@Reprieve---good luck skiing, man. Good luck getting off the chair lifts without making a fool of yourself, too. lol



LOL... thats the only advice I have been getting, is how to get off the lift... I here I thought going down the mountain was the tough part, but everyone I have talked with has said that the getting off the lift is the hardest part... now I am starting to worry :P

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:51 pm 
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hey John.
have a great vacation with the family, you guys deserve it. You will have an awesome time. As far as skiing. Good luck. I tried it once when I was young, I think all I did was drink. Stuck with hockey instead, a little safer for me. :) Your going somewhere to find snow. :?: Keep warm.
It's funny you mentioned Binaural beats, my son in-law mentioned them too. I will definitely finds 20-30 minutes of piece and quiet and give it a go.
All the best to you a your family, have fun and stay safe.

Romeo,

For whatever reason nothing has ever come easy. But like you I can be pretty stubborn. Been through a lot of shit in my life, this is just another chapter. If I can put back to back 5 hour sleeps together I will be back in the drivers seat instead of the trunk. Been couped up in this house too long. Next week I plan on going to a hockey tounament with my grandson, my daughter and wife are also going. We, well most of the team have rented rooms for 3 nights. Should be a blast. With a little rest I should be good to go.

later guys,


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Reprieve wrote:
I am so glad to hear you got some rest. 5 may not be the best, but it will help you to heal that's for sure. I would continue what you are doing, or did, and see if that's what it takes to get you back on track. Now I am going to go off the rails a bit, but I am a big believer in the power of the mind.

Anyways, if you should need to try something else to augment, consider this: binaural beats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

It takes about 20-30 min and to do it correctly you need to be able to have a very quite place where no one will bother you while you try to relax. I discovered it a few years back and have tried it. If only as a placebo effect, it does help you to reach a meditative state. There are several different "songs" you can listen to (it's best with stereo headphones) that can create many different desired outcomes.

In a nut shell it is sounds that you listen to that are created a specific wavelengths used to induce certain reactions in the brain.

If you read up and find that you want to give it a try, let me know and I'll post more info or maybe even create a new thread somewhere so I can keep all the info gathered in one spot. I was rally into it for awhile and there is much on this subject all over the net.

I also wanted to mention that I will be going out of town for the next week or so, so if I don;t post much or often, don't worry about me... it's planned and NOT a relapse. I am a little anxious as this will be the first vacation that I have been on in 20 years without drugs... I scared for some reason and very excited at the same time. I am scared just because it will be different. I always used the excuse of using MORE on vacation because of the stress of being around all that family for a week and no real escape like going home. I am excited because I will finally be able to be there 100% for my family. I'll actually get to EXPERIENCE the vacation instead of just being there if you know what I mean. My family deserves it.

I am also going snow skiing for the first time in my life. I hope I don't get hurt, or hurt badly I should say as I know I'll be sore...

Anyways, If I don't talk with you guys tonight, I'll sure talk at you guys soon!!

Good luck Gary...


Much Love,

Reprieve



I hope you're vacationing here in Colorado! The powder is awesome!!!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Friends don't let friends go to Colorado!! Too many weirdo's there! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:06 pm 
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Where do I start about Kentucky?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:21 pm 
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Good point, Amy. I think I'll just be quiet now. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:45 pm 
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@ everyone LOL LOL LOL

I am actually going to be closer to Q than, Going to Gatlinberg, Tenn and Pigeon Forge, Tenn.

I would be laughed off the mountain on Colorado, nor would I leave the Dispensaries. I think I would OD on cookies and milk if I stayed in Colorado too long! :)

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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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