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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:16 pm 
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I understand about the half-life, and how many people who need surgery stop sub days or even weeks before, but still end up need a higher opiate dose as a result of subutex.

My question is this:
Once someone has stopped subutex, and it it fully metabolized out of their system (let be conservative and say 21 days). At that point it seems that there opiate tolerance dose is still higher vs. my neighbor Mary Jane who has never taken subutex or any opiates ?

At what point after stopping subutex will the body be able to consume a NORMAL opiate dosage for let's say a wisdom tooth extraction. Let's say a regular strength vicodin for examplle. When will this work on the person who has stopped sub ?

Is there a semi-perm chaange in brain chemistry whereas the tolerance is foerever changed if someone has been on sub for years, at a high dose ?

It would seem that the receptors have been occupied for so long as a result of taking sub that tolerance is truly changed many months after stopping.

I hope I am wrong, but after 7 days of stopping subutex (3 yrs, 10mg daily), taking 30mg of oxycodone doesnt do much. I tried 60mg, and a wee bit more. For god's sake ! Do I need to 100mg every 4 hours for pain relief for a kidney stone ?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:34 pm 
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You raise a very good question. One that I'm not sure is going to be easily answered. I can tell you that at some point you will return to normal. I am certain of this due to the fact that many people overdose due to this exact issue. They stop doing their drug of choice - often for a month or more. They then "fall of the wagon" and return to using again. The problem sometimes is, they return to the same dose that they used to take - regardless of the "brand" of drug. They then end up dieing of an overdose because they are no longer tolerant. My point is simply that given enough time with zero opiate intake, your tolerance will just about disappear. How long that takes is less known. Not to make things even darker for you, but what else seems to happen to many people is even though their tolerance will return to normal or near normal for them, if they for whatever reason return to taking drugs, their tolerance often returns very quickly. It does not at all seem uncommon for them to be back up to huge doses again within days if not a week or so. I have heard of this happening many times to many different people.

As to your question, if I had to guess, I would say 30 days might be the "average" time it takes for tolerance to return back to baseline. Again, that's nothing more than a guess. Something tells me that I'm in the ballpark with 30 days. From the sound of things, you might be able to actually tell us how long it takes, given what you seem to be going through.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:50 pm 
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donh wrote:
You raise a very good question. One that I'm not sure is going to be easily answered. I can tell you that at some point you will return to normal. I am certain of this due to the fact that many people overdose due to this exact issue. They stop doing their drug of choice - often for a month or more. They then "fall of the wagon" and return to using again. The problem sometimes is, they return to the same dose that they used to take - regardless of the "brand" of drug. They then end up dieing of an overdose because they are no longer tolerant. My point is simply that given enough time with zero opiate intake, your tolerance will just about disappear. How long that takes is less known. Not to make things even darker for you, but what else seems to happen to many people is even though their tolerance will return to normal or near normal for them, if they for whatever reason return to taking drugs, their tolerance often returns very quickly. It does not at all seem uncommon for them to be back up to huge doses again within days if not a week or so. I have heard of this happening many times to many different people.

As to your question, if I had to guess, I would say 30 days might be the "average" time it takes for tolerance to return back to baseline. Again, that's nothing more than a guess. Something tells me that I'm in the ballpark with 30 days. From the sound of things, you might be able to actually tell us how long it takes, given what you seem to be going through.


Thank you so much for your time to answer my post. Some on the site have scolded me for not focusing on the problem of the kidney stone, but as you can see its 2 fold---withdrawl and a kidney stone simultensouly. UGH!

But as far as I can say, upon taking my 1st dose of Oxycodone hcl at 30mg, after 4 hours of my last 2mg of subutex, my puils constricted, demonstrating classic opiate symptoms.

I can measure some activity based on:
Pupil constriction degree
Degree of constipation

Both these are going strong at 7 days on Oxycodone, approx 180mg per day, but I may increase this since it's not working.

There is no euphoria, or high. Something I used to get when I took a regular vicodin.

My sense agrees with your sense--30 days seems to feel right.

1st 11 Days - 7 Half lives of Sub (36 hours x 7)

Then depending on your body weight and fat composition, since sub sticks to fat cells, it would depend on your body fat content. But I would say another 10-19 days for that.

Brings us to 30 days :)

I will let you know if our theory has truth to it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:09 am 
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I really hate to tell you this, but I've heard of people being off sub for a month and still having issues with tolerance. I doubt there is any line in the sand at which point all of a sudden you just get your old lack of tolerance back. It's gradual and will take time. I know after my last procedure when I took about three times the average dose of pain meds that I did get pain relief but felt no high. Are you looking for a high or just judging your tolerance levels by that? Not that it really matters, but it's not the first time you've mentioned that you don't feel that old "high".

I also wanted to say that I don't think anyone was scolding you for not focusing on the kidney stone. I think instead of working at treating the pain, they were merely suggesting it might also work to focus on solving the cause of the pain - that's all. Good luck, keep us posted, and I really hope you get to feeling better very soon.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:32 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
I really hate to tell you this, but I've heard of people being off sub for a month and still having issues with tolerance. I doubt there is any line in the sand at which point all of a sudden you just get your old lack of tolerance back. It's gradual and will take time. I know after my last procedure when I took about three times the average dose of pain meds that I did get pain relief but felt no high. Are you looking for a high or just judging your tolerance levels by that? Not that it really matters, but it's not the first time you've mentioned that you don't feel that old "high".

I also wanted to say that I don't think anyone was scolding you for not focusing on the kidney stone. I think instead of working at treating the pain, they were merely suggesting it might also work to focus on solving the cause of the pain - that's all. Good luck, keep us posted, and I really hope you get to feeling better very soon.


Pain control is #1, so I can pass the stones. So much easier to pass them when you're body is not in a constant flight or flight, and as we all know, by eliminating pain, healing becomes more tangible. By eliminating pain, mobility is increased, which again is condusive to healing.

'The high" I mentioned was just an onbservation. Subutex never ever got me high, but it did elevate my mood for sure. Perhaps this is what I am comparing it to, simple mood elevation.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:13 pm 
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I'm actually more curious how in the heck you got a doctor to provide you with 180 mg of oxycodone a day? That is a pretty large dose - and from all I have read on here, it is not at all typical that a physician is willing to provide such a high level of opiates on a daily basis - not to mention for several weeks or even a month's time? You are lucky that you have a doc who is willing to do this.

The other thing I need to mention is when I talk about your tolerance dropping after perhaps 30 days, I'm talking about no intake of opiates during that time - ZERO. If you continue to take 180 mg of oxy a day, there is no way in hell that your tolerance is going to drop. It is going to go up - that is almost certain. I know that you are looking for pain relief, but I'm 100% certain here that if you continue taking the levels of narcotics you are, there is just simply no way that your tolerance will drop. It just won't - it will increase. So, we really won't find much out about answering this question so long as you continue having to take the oxy. The only way your tolerance will be reduced, is if you completely stop any and all narcotic intake.

I too think your best bet is to get that stone removed, but that has to be your decision.


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