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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:13 pm 
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I can't post about this on my blog so bare with me I just need to get this out there because sometimes it brings me a sense of relief. My son is playing games with his suboxone, he is selling it or maybe trading it. I found xanax in his bedroom right after I wrote my last post about him being on to big a starting dose. The reason he looked high was because he probably was. I always know in my gut when he has relapsed and I should have listened to it, but I had put so much faith in Suboxone, I thought I was imagining it. Putting my faith in suboxone was a really stupid thing to do because obviously he still has to want to be clean. He thinks he has this all figured out. He has no job and lives in our house and drives the car we bought him. He is trading or selling the prescriptions that we buy him? Do you know how much money this is costing us?

The really really worst thing is...I put my marriage on the line to get him into a suboxone program. My husband swore he was playing us and it was just going to be more of the same and it looks like he was write. Now what do it do? How do I support an addict who doesn't really want to get well. He just thinks he has this all under control. Dabbles with this takes subs to withdraw, is good for a little while, and fucks up again because he can. I understand he is ill but I don't want my family to be forced to watch him die because thats his two choices death or jail.

I have given every tool available for him to get well. I have fought with insurance companies, coerced and screamed at my husband. I have put my marriage and possibly my entire families happiness on the line and this is what I get? I can not do this anymore. This drug is so evil, why can addicts not see this?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:02 pm 
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Yikes !

I left a short note on your blog, but I didn't know you had evidence he was not taking suboxone anymore (trading it) - and getting xanax illegally.

Has he told you this? The reason I ask, is that most of us learn to manipulate everyone and everything to hide. He would be in a very small minority of addicts if he came to you with any sort of honesty - saying - oh ya, thank's mom - but I'm not taking suboxone anymore - swapping for xanax - and I'm back on my drug of choice.

I thought that the xanax you found was probably prescribed to him from the psychiatrist. But if not - you do have issues to deal with.

If he was prescribed the xanax from psychiatrist that is also giving him suboxone, then obviously it's part of what the doctor thinks is best. I take it - that is NOT the case?

What do you do? Show more compassion? Try and love him through it?

If I were in your shoes, I'd visit with his psychiatrist first. Here is why. They are bound by law if they know that a patient is in danger to himself or someone else. By adding xanax (outside of adoctor Rx) to suboxone or other opiates - he increases the chance of respiratory failure. The psychiatrist may feel that he needs to let the authorities know (or not).

If you don't have evidence that he is trading his drugs, but just a gut feel - then that's really a hard place. I'd say confront - and hard line rules. Zero tolerance for a while on your rules if he is doing illegal activity. If he is agreeable, do a pill count - give them to him yourself and watch them under his tongue, whatever.

If this is too much of an imposition on him, I'd tell him to pack his bags.

Again, all of this needs to be done with knowledge. You need to know he is trading, not using suboxone, and getting xanax illegally.

If he is reallly on suboxone, getting xanax legally, but his dose is - say 16 mg, but he only takes 8mg and he can trade the other one to buddies for something - you have a different issue.

Nothing is black and white - and I don't want to sound like I have a black and white answer. To me, it's about legal/illegal, but you may feel different. If he is trading (dealing) - then in my world that is a line too far. If he just swapped a couple pills once to someone else who wanted to try suboxone to try and get clean, and he had a few extra's... I'd have to take that to the Lord and get advice. In all cases I'd be in contact with his psychiatrist.

Good Luck, and please keep us posted. I hope this came across as I meant it - to support you while this disease rears it's ugly head. We are here for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Sounds like me when I was younger the shit I used to do to my family. I think you really need to take everything away put him in a hardcore rehab with hardcore people. If that doesn't work there only a couple of options left death or jail. honestly the only thing that saved me was my son being born. I am pretty much the same as your son but now 4 years sober. People just need to hit a really really shitty bottom to snap out of it. I hope everything works out for your son.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:16 pm 
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I am really sorry to hear this but to be honest i'm not surprised. Suboxone is just not a good choice for young and active addicts... especially when it is handed over to them with no cost to themselves. This is why I hoped you would make him financially responsible for his subs treatment. I think your son is at the earliest and most dangerous stages of addiction and will probably not seriously seek help until he's suffered some real pain for his choices. Unfortnately it may be jail, overdose, or homelessness. You can take an active role in helping him reach the point where he needs and wants help but you will have to be strong [like your husband?] and boot him out on the street. I know that isn't easy for a mother but it seems like you've tried everything else...

Thats what my parents did to me when I was 18 and reality hit quickly. This is because I had to not only pay for my drugs... but I also had to feed, clothe, and shelter myself. It wasn't long before I was faced with jail or the army and chose the latter. Hopefully your son will find a better path then me....


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:37 pm 
Lathedude took the words right out of my mouth. I was gonna write a lengthy response but lathedude hit the nail on the head. Great advice!! I am 24 years old and i have 10 months clean on suboxone. In the beginning, my mom gave me my daily dose for a bit just too be on the safe side. After about 2 or 3 months i got control of my life and now i am a very responsible young adult. Suboxfreedom: Although i do understand what your saying about young people, i have done exceptionally well with suboxone and have no problem with maintnence. In other words you saying it doesnt work well for most young people can be very discouraging. Not so much to me but too other young addicts seeking treatment possibly at a very vulnerable stage of their addiction. Have a great day being clean!! ~PEACE~


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:12 pm 
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madyson, I know you are really worried about your son...but I am worried about YOU. Who is supporting you in this situation? Do you have anyone to help you in creating healthy boundaries with your son?

I know I recommended naranon to you before - have you been able to go to any meetings? Or did you check out The Junkys Wive's Club? There are many people who have been where you are and who can help you get through this.

Recovery is difficult for everyone, but it can be especially challenging for adolescents and young adults because they often don't have the capacity to think through the consequences of their choices. It's a brain development thing. Add that to the natural feelings of invincibility that most young people have and it's a recipe for disaster.

You have gotten some good advice here. There are different opinions about how to proceed in a situation like yours. My advice would be for you to figure out what your bottom line in this situation is. What are you willing to do? How much more are you willing to risk? Getting your husband in on this conversation is probably a good idea too. It's one thing to say "You need to practice tough love and kick him out," and quite another to actually do it.

There are things you can do other than just kicking him out of your house. You can put conditions on him living there: he gets a job, consents to random drug screens, pays rent, takes his medication, etc. You could take away the car and make the house unavailable to him during the day when he should be either working or looking for work. Then you have to have enforceable consequences for not following your rules. But you have to make sure that the consequence (ie, he goes to rehab or he moves out) are something you can enforce and live with enforcing, otherwise it's all empty threats.

Like I said above, you will need support to get through this. If you and your husband can work as a team, all the better. I wish you the best madyson, please take care of yourself.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:50 pm 
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You've received some really good responses here and I agree things sound like they've taken a turn for the worse. It is or may be time to draw a line in the sand. Have you talked to your husband about this? Maybe it's time to tell him exactly why you gave your son the benefit of the doubt and how you're feeling about it now. Like someone else said, it's just not black and white - it's a whole lotta gray area (like everything is).

And do, please take care of yourself in some way. And you asked why addicts can't see how bad drugs are...we don't see from the outside. Our only perspective is ours and it's from the inside with no looking out, if that makes any sense. Addicts are selfish and our needs come first.

Lastly, I also agree with those here who stated your son needs to start paying some consequences. Up until now you've been bailing him out, so to speak. He's in trouble, but as far as he's concerned, you will take care of it, take care of him. Maybe before throwing him out draw the line in the sand and when he crosses it (again?) then it'll be time to take action.

Good luck and please keep us posted on how YOU are doing.

Melissa

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:15 pm 
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I agree with much of what has already been said. I do think confronting him about your concerns is important. I think you are beyond a point where you need "proof" of it because he has done enough to lose your trust. My husband was extremely concerned when he learned of my addiction and that I was on suboxone. Even though I had been on it successfully for 2 months, I willingly handed over the suboxone and allowed him to give them to me so he would feel more comfortable. I owed him at least that. I wouldn't expect the same maturity of a younger person, but I think you have every right to set that boundary with him and to drug test him randomly if he is to live in your house and drive a car you bought him. I don't know how old he is unfortunately, but one rule in my house growing up (that I am grateful for to this day) was that you either had to be in school full time or work full time and do the other part time if you wanted to live there. Being stagnant in life was not an option in my house.

Since you are the only one apparenty investing in his recovery at this point, then you have every right to be concerned. If he can't invest himself in any way or refuses to be accountable to the person investing this much into him, then I am not sure he is ready or wants this bad enough.

I really hope he isn't ignoring this opportunity. He may need a full blown inpatient treatment program to get him away from his friends and other people who are using. That might be a boundary if he failed a drug test and probably one you could live with. I know these decisions are tough and it doesn't help when you and your spouse don't necessarily think/feel the same way about it. I agree that you may want to find a support group. Unfortunately, you may still have a very long road ahead of you.

Take care.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:18 am 
Madyson I'm so sorry things aren't going as well as you had hoped. Please listen to DOQ and get some help and support for yourself. I don't think anyone knows better than me how important it is to take care of yourself. I became a wife at age 19, had my first baby at age 20 and then 2 more children. They are now ages 15-25. So I have been a wife, mother, and a professional nurse for 26 of the 46 years of life. I spent all those years basically taking care of everyone but me, even the perfect strangers I cared for at work, got much better care from me than I gave to myself. It seemed to be the right thing to do and I did love it. But at the same time it was taking a toll on me. I don't want to see you get sick yourself because you haven't taken care of you. Please think about it.
As far as your son. We all have different ways we'd approach the situation, but it's ultimately up to you. You've gotten a lot of great feedback already from everyone here. All I would add is to kind of go to what Jackcrack said about the way things were in her house. Things have always been similar in our house. From the time our kids were teenagers, they each got the sit down talk.....This is your car, we bought it for you and it's yours to keep as long as you play by the rules. Same with any other privelege the were given. As long as you're making sound choices, in school and/or working, participating as a productive member in this household, the car and the priveleges are yours. But mess up to any grand degree and the plug gets pulled. Period. Got the first kid off the college, making the grades, doing well.....happy for him to keep the car, glad to pay his college expenses, etc. Second one comes along ready for college and decides she 'needs' to move in with her loser boyfriend. UGGGGHHHH! Loser....disrespectful, going nowhere, entitlement attitude, not working, not in school, punk. Well, it was the hardest thing i had ever had to do, but I hard lined her and said you've got two choices - don't move in with him and continue on with your car and go on to college as was planned,.....or choose to live with the idiot, leave the car here, and good luck..... Well, she chose the latter....to move in with the loser. Broke my heart into a million pieces. But it was her choice and she made it. Fast forward 2 years....back here to mom telling mom she was right....boyfriend was a loser and was never gonna change. Miracle was, my girl still managed to earn her bachelors degree and begin working on her Masters while working full time and taking care of loser man. So she's back home again to finish grad school and pay off some bills. He POS car that she was able to afford to replace the brand new Mustang we had given her was totalled. We helped her get into a newer, nicer car and will help her in any way we can....again provided that she is making good choices. That's the way it is.
No comparison, I know, to her being a drug addict. That is something I can't imagine. However....the hard line is still similar. What I would do is take the Suboxone Rx from him and hold it for him. Give him his dose, watch him take it every day. He would be given zero money that would be free money for him to spend however he wants. He would be allowed to only take the car to work or to school or other preapproved outing. He's acting like an untrustworthy, immature child, so he must be treated as such. If he refuses to live under your rules, then he can go try to find somewhere else to live. That's what I'd put out on the table. Let him think about it for a day or two and then make a decision. If he really wants to get better, he'll play by your rules. If not, it's out of your hands anyway and he's gonna do what he's gonna do no matter what. If that's the case, all that's left is trying to get him to go inpatient for an extended period of time, or let him go try and make it on the streets and pray, pray, pray that he survives long enough to see the light.
In the meantime, take time to care for yourself. I hope your marriage isn't past the point of no return. That would be such a shame. Would either of you consider marriage counseling? I hope the marriage is worth saving, because a split right now would probably just make everything worse. I'll be praying for you. You are really in a crisis, but hang on! We are here for you.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:46 am 
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You have gotten some really great advice here. I can only hope to provide half as much as those who have already written to you. I have been watching your story for a while now and am just as concerned as the others. I don't want to pile on you or anything but I feel so strongly that you need to find some help for you. You are so deep into this at this point that I don't think you know which end is even up anymore. I can't imagine how hard all of this is for you. Unfortunately, the little I do know about addiction and such, it seems like many times very well meaning and very loving parents actually get in the way of their children getting better. I'm not saying you are doing that. I am not there with you and even if I was I am not qualified to make that statement. However, I see it all of the time. I recently saw a Dr. Phil show with this exact problem. He had several "kids" in your son's age-range that desperately needed help for drug addiction but Dr. Phil first had to fix the parents. In one case the mom went and picked the child up from rehab against the advice of everyone. In another case he refused to get the kids help and instead sent the parents for help. Many times the husband and wife are divided - which seems to be the case with you. I remember you commenting that your husband has called him "your son". You were upset by this and I can understand that. I also have to wonder though if your husband doesn't say that because he doesn't feel like he has any say or any control left in this. It looks from my very distant viewpoint that your son has become your drug of choice. Saving your son has become your mission in life and the reason for your existence. I don't think you'll even argue with me on this. You certainly want to do the right thing. So did these parents on Dr. Phil. Unfortunately, they were actually keeping their kids in addiction by their actions.

What's my point? It is simply this; I really think that you should go see a professional for help with this. You really need your local version of Dr. Phil to wake you up (if needed) and direct you step by step with what to do. Thing is, you will have to be willing to follow what they say. It's going to be hard. It is going to go against everything you feel you want to do. But ask yourself, is what you are doing now and what you have done up until this point worked? You are not a bad person, stupid, mean, - none of it. You are simply lost as to what to do next. You don't have any control over your son. The only person you have control over is you. You can only change what you do. The thing is, by you changing what you do, it very well could start to change what your son does - your husband as well.

What really sucks is other than Narconon, Alanon or picking a therapist; I don't have a "hot line" to send you to. If you want to find a Suboxone doctor I know where to send you. But not for this. That doesn't mean help is not a phone call and drive away in your local area. I so hope that you'll consider getting someone to help you and your husband with all of this. I really, honestly, whole-heartedly think that the best shot that your son has at getting better is with you getting help first.

Please stick here with us and we'll try to do anything else that we can for you.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:09 am 
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Hi I don't have a lot of experience (yet) to give you about getting treatment, but one thing I wanted to throw in here:

It never ever affected me and would even piss me off a little when people would tell me:

"You have two options going down this road, death or jail."

Because no, those aren't the only two options, as I knew plenty of people that none of those ever happened to but still lived the addicted lives. So I would just laugh it off when people would say that, so most likely that will NEVER sink into your kids head.

What sank into my head was when someone finally said, "You may not die or go to jail, but having to live the rest of your life in that depressing, dirty and low lifestyle will kill you on the inside, or make you wish you were dead."

Because they were right, I never really sat back and took a look at the people in my life that didn't die or go to jail, but were addicts. They got to use everyday, sure, but they were MISERABLE, sad, aged far past their years people. Their lights were on but no one was home. They were scum, and I always thought, "Oh I'm so much better than them because I have a nice car and I'm only 22 and still look and feel young and have a place to live and parents who will help me" but the more I thought about it, what the hell made me any better than them? Nothing. And those people were just a mirror of me to come in 20 years. They all started out just like me, just like your kid.

So the idea of only death or jail as options gives the illusion that there is an escape from this, one way or the other, and most times there is NOT, you are just stuck in the spiral of the same groundhog day, everyday, and THAT will steal your soul and make you as good as dead.

Just a thought


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:30 pm 
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He appears to be withdrawing and wants to get back on suboxone. I think he will be able to take it late tonight or in the morning, if his big black pupils are any indication. I am exhausted with this BS but still have hope. I will let you know what happens. Consequences? Well we will need to talk about this too.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:57 pm 
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Of course you still have hope - you're his mother! If you lost hope completely I think that would be abnormal.

Keep us posted.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:18 pm 
Just wanted to reiterate my suggestion to hold his Suboxone for him. Give him his correct dose at the correct times and give him no extra which he might choose to sell or trade to a friend. You bought the prescription and you have the right to hold and administer the meds. That's what I would do. He's had enough chances to do this correctly himself and has failed, so take it out of his hands. Give him no money with which he could go out and buy his DOC either. This way he'll have no choice but to take his Sub from you or be miserable in withdrawals. To me, this could be a good first step to drawing a line in the sand without going over board and kicking him out or something severe like that. I encourage you to try it Madyson and see if it helps. Of course, all is not lost and there is still plenty of hope. This is a marathon, a journey, that may take many more months to get him on the right path. Hang in there. And please heed our advice about getting some help for yourself. Read and reread all of your replies here and take them as intended.......as our desire to help you and your son and give you all the best chance at coming out victorious on the other side! Hang tough!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:09 pm 
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I completely agree with setmefree.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:00 pm 
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Just so you know how this happened...I was giving him 2 8mg's in the morning before I left for work in the morning. I would see him take one most of the time but not all the time. He never had access to more than 16 mgs a day. Remember I said I was surprised the Dr. told him 16 mgs a day because he did well on 8 mgs or less. Well for a while he would just take the one and pocket the other one and I guess started selling or trading the extra one. He does not have a job and we are very strict with what we will give him money for, in the hopes it becomes so painful he gets a job. Well money must have triggered him or someone wanted or needed a Sub and offered him opiates. Whatever... thats how we got here. So now he puts it under his tongue and I stand there for about 5 minutes to make sure he doesn't swallow it. Sad I know but thats how it's going to work now. He gets one 8mg under his tongue in the morning and I hold the rest. He never had the bottle ever.

Obviously, You know I love my addict but you guys are sneaky little suckers.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:36 pm 
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"Obviously, You know I love my addict but you guys are sneaky little suckers."

Yes we are. And when we find someone who desperately wants to believe what we tell them, rather than seeing what is actually going on with us, it makes our job of being sneeky all that much easier.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:43 pm 
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Sad but true.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:51 pm 
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donh wrote:
"Obviously, You know I love my addict but you guys are sneaky little suckers."

Yes we are. And when we find someone who desperately wants to believe what we tell them, rather than seeing what is actually going on with us, it makes our job of being sneeky all that much easier.
Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me...I won't make that same mistake but I am sure I will make a new one.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:45 am 
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Madyson007 wrote:
Just so you know how this happened...I was giving him 2 8mg's in the morning before I left for work in the morning. I would see him take one most of the time but not all the time. He never had access to more than 16 mgs a day. Remember I said I was surprised the Dr. told him 16 mgs a day because he did well on 8 mgs or less. Well for a while he would just take the one and pocket the other one and I guess started selling or trading the extra one. He does not have a job and we are very strict with what we will give him money for, in the hopes it becomes so painful he gets a job. Well money must have triggered him or someone wanted or needed a Sub and offered him opiates. Whatever... thats how we got here. So now he puts it under his tongue and I stand there for about 5 minutes to make sure he doesn't swallow it. Sad I know but thats how it's going to work now. He gets one 8mg under his tongue in the morning and I hold the rest. He never had the bottle ever.

Obviously, You know I love my addict but you guys are sneaky little suckers.


Madyson007,

Just a little tip when you are giving his son his dose...You say you give it to him and and sit there for five minutes and watch him take it, making sure he doesn't swallow it....Well, you can do what they did for me when I attended a week-long suboxone program. The nurse would administer everyone's doses but what she did for time constraint purposes is crush up the pill and put it in a little dixie cup and watch us put it under our tongue. The Drug dissolves almost instantly so he will get his full absorption so at least if he is still using opiates, he can't feel them. Be sure to stress to him NOT TO TAKE Xanax with Suboxone. Mixing Benzo's and Suboxone is a very, very dangerous game. I had a friend who did it once and had to be taken to the emergency room since he stopped breathing for a while and turned purple and very well almost died.

You remind me of my Mother in a lot of ways....I put her through a lot during my full blown addictions days. I don't know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of what you are going through....Just know, I did get through and I do feel remorse for the things I did and I live with it everyday. Even when you think it's dark there is still that small light at the end of the tunnel.

Best of wishes,
Ryan


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