It is currently Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:56 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:11 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:02 am
Posts: 17
Hey all,

I have been reading these posts for over a year, some more than once. I finally had the nerve to post something I need help with. I am currently on 24mg a day and I cannot help but run out by the end of the month. Sometimes I go to the doc on the 25th or 26th day and hope they will not notice.

When I get my script I take 32mg right away and maybe another 16-32 later in the day. I know what everyone is going to say that it is a total waste but it is my compulsion to take them. I can go thru 80 strips in about 15 days. Once I get to the last few days I resort to shooting about 2-4mg to get me thru. I read too much about the bioavailability.

So my questions is how can I deal with this, I cannot give them to anyone to give me because 1. I have too much pride and 2. I travel for work about 2 weeks out of the month.

I am not a troll, just need some advice.

Also, I am going to the doc today to get my dose upped to 32mg because it is the 22md day and I am out. I want to make this next month a good one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:33 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
Welcome Army Mike!

Guessing your Dr is noticing your scheduling appts early each mo to get an early script.
Same for your Pharmacy.
What is your insurance? VA? medicaid? medicare? ACA? Employer group provided? Assume you have coverage bc 90 subs/mo is expensive.

You may not have all the options you are wanting. Do you specifically know what your plan allows? Does it have dose caps? time caps?
Some plans have dose caps at 16 mg/day, 24 mg/day. Some allow 24 mgs for say 6 mos or 1 yr and then must drop to 16mg/ day.
Some states have restrictive refill laws where bc of your early fill days, future scripts are refused till time catches up.
Do Drs prescribe > 24mg/day? we don't really hear of that.
Asking for 32 mg especially after a year on 24 mgs is a red flag.

You already know you're taking and wasting way to much which is why you are here. I'm surprised you're not tired/sleepy from it. Initially a few folks need the 24 mg dose but after awhile, many of us got really tired on 16+mg doses and ended up dropping.

What's your opiate use history that brought you to bup? Any other meds? Alcohol? Clean UAs? Any support system? Any recovery work? Ya, more will better help us -- help you.
Others will come along on the compulsion to take
Best always and sorry this is so hard. Pel

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:56 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:24 pm
Posts: 16
The most significant concern your doctor will probably have is that you may be diverting (giving away or selling) some of your medication. Remember that anything that happens to someone that you illegally give a prescription medication to ultimately will land on your head, including a manslaughter charge. Plenty of people are serving hard time because they diverted prescription medication and something very bad happened.

If you are straightforward with your doctor, they are much more likely to believe you. Doctors get pretty good at calculating how many doses are needed in any given time. Your doctor has a DATA 2000 wavier which means that DEA agents come in on a regular basis and ask for prescribing records. Anyone who is suspected of diverting medication can easily be discharged from treatment.

If you are, indeed, overtaking your medication like that then your doctor may require more frequent visits or break up your prescription into, say, #45 with 1 refill and depend on your pharmacy to regulate the timing of the refill. That’s going to make your out-of-town schedule pretty difficult.

There are electronic medication dispensers that are available for about $70 which even have simple locks. They aren’t safes in any way - they are designed to help people with memory problems take their meds on schedule. However, it is a way of getting your medication dispensed on a rigid schedule. If you leave the key somewhere else then you are faced with the prospect of breaking into the device.

Ultimately, you need to get to the root of your compulsion to overtake meds. What is your brain wanting when you are doing it and why? This is where chemical dependency counseling would help a lot.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:09 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:40 pm
Posts: 455
Quote:
Your doctor has a DATA 2000 wavier which means that DEA agents come in on a regular basis and ask for prescribing records. Anyone who is suspected of diverting medication can easily be discharged from treatment.


I've been doing this for 5 years and have never had any contact with DEA or our medical board. They can drop in for an audit at any time but it doesn't happen very often.

The concern about diversion in your case would be very high. If you cannot succeed on 24 mg a day, 32 will not make a difference. I don't have any insurance plans that continue to allow 32 mg a day anyway. 24 is the max and I suspect my drop more in the future.
Drop the 'pride' thing, you need help.
In my practice, if you were given another opportunity, you would be picking up your medication weekly. If that didn't work then daily, too bad about the copays but we would need to get this tiger tamed or have you transition to methadone and a daily clinic.
You didn't mention if you are doing anything for recovery besides the Suboxone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:43 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
StatCoder, Its good to point out that diversion can and does end up back with real consequences to the dealer.

However, while I regret and resent med diversion and of course, bup diversion -- bup is a safe drug and its diversion would be highly unlikely to result in a manslaughter charge bc folks rarely die from bup. A rare child got a hold of bup or adults need to be both opiate näive AND benzo näive AND take both. Bup found in deceased OD toxicology tests is w other non opiates or w other opiates that overcame bup's blocking effect and would include they overcame bup's ceiling - its respiratory depression protection.

Army Mike, you a got a great response from a visiting Dr here who we're so grateful stops by. We learn much from him. let us know what your Dr says today. Hope you see these replies to you before you go. Glad you came and can read straight up talk. What you're doing is not sustainable...

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:30 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:02 am
Posts: 17
Thanks for the advice to all, I just got back from the doctor and told him the situation. I have been going there for over 2 years with no dirty urine's and even participate in their group sessions which are voluntary. I am 100% honest with them, I am just tired of the proverbial roller coaster.

I told him I have been taking 32mg a day since my last visit (which we are allowed to increase dose by yourself if you are having issues, but must make an appointment ASAP) and he gave me a script for 16mg BID total 120. My insurance would only pay for 90 a month so the pharmacist (who I have gone too for the past 2+ years) did SOMETHING and the insurance paid for 90 and 30 are on file but I would have to pay cash.

Also, my history is this: Injured in Iraq in 2008, given large quantity of pain killers, cut off after I was discharged. Went to the street and was in IV Dope user for almost 3 years. Almost lost it all but the wife stood by me thru 3 rehabs till I found my sub doc. Have been clean for 2 1/2 years.

Started sub at a VA clinic who made us stay clean and living there in a program for 30 days then she started me at 4mg a day and was discharged at 16mg. Transferred to civilian doctor and have been between 16 and 32mg since.

I know this was a data dump of information but I was trying to answer the questions. Bottom line is I am working my program, seeing my VA PTSD therapist, seeing swub doc, going to AA and I have a sponsor.

What can I do to make myself take this medication normally. What kills me is when I get low I can get by on 8mg for 10 days but the second i get the script its back to 4-6 strips.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:33 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:02 am
Posts: 17
StatCoder wrote:
However, it is a way of getting your medication dispensed on a rigid schedule. If you leave the key somewhere else then you are faced with the prospect of breaking into the device..


I would totally break in if I had the compulsion. I am keeping it 100% honest, that's the only way I can get better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:46 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Posts: 2469
Location: Tennessee
Hey Armymike glad u finally posted, hope u keep sticking around too!

Well I can't add much but I did want to say that if u ever run out and can't go to ur doctor early or however it'll happen to where u can't get any medication until it's time, u will see a different motivation. It's just like addicts who finally have consequences of not getting bailed out and have to face what sheer misery is waiting. When u finally go through that, you'll remember that and it will help motivate u to not take all this extra. I hope that made sense. If u have already faced these types of consequences then keeping those memories in the forefront of ur mind every time u reach for extra will help. Honestly, ur doctor is going to finally stop early appointments and you'll be waiting until the next with nothing.

If I were a doctor I'd cut u down to weekly visits, that way ur not going to be tempted as much and can stay more within ur dose. I think u should offer to do that as inconvenient as it would be, this is ur recovery which comes first. It seems ur spinning out of control and u got to take whatever measures u can to fix it. The needles have to go too, don't even have them around anymore.

I hope u are or start doing counseling with an addiction counselor and meetings. There's definitely a great chance that u can turn this around but it will take some work. It's hard to break this type of thing but it absolutely can be done. Good luck Mike! I wish u all the best!!

_________________
Jennifer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:48 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:40 pm
Posts: 455
Quote:
What can I do to make myself take this medication normally. What kills me is when I get low I can get by on 8mg for 10 days but the second i get the script its back to 4-6 strips


Which is exactly why I would put you on weekly pickups. If you run out, then only a day or two out instead of a week. I would keep it there until you have your behavior under control.
Thanks for your service, I hope you can pull it together.

You also say your wife has stood through all this with you. Could she be the gate keeper? Understand if she wouldn't want the pressure or how that dynamic can change a relationship.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:01 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:02 am
Posts: 17
Wow, the feedback is amazing, I have seen posts go unanswered or ignored for a long time but those posts don’t have a lot put into them.

JennJenn: I have felt the pain once before at the 92hour mark, no Bueno. Also felt the pain of shooting 2mg of sub while still high on dope and 100% dependent. I wanted to die, I had the gun in my hand when my wife called me to say hi (she never calls, only texting)

Anyway, off topic. I just started my dream job after getting sober, finishing school and I was finally able to land it. That being said, weekly visits would put me in a precarious situation. I am trying to avoid and disruptions in the force.

I just made my next appointment for the 15th of September. I never make an appointment, I always call when I get low or stick it out. I am going to stick with 24mg a day, 16mg in the AM and 8mg after lunch. I am going to leave my sub box at home so I am not tempted and I am going to post here every day for the next 30days. That way I have some accountability.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:58 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:02 am
Posts: 17
One more thing just to clarify, I am 100% against diversion. I have been asked to buy some and sell some at the pharmacy. Almost all of my doc's patients use the pharmacy that is in the same shopping center as the doctors office.

It makes me mad that this goes on but I also know the struggle. Having said that, I am still 100% against it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:14 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:24 pm
Posts: 16
This thread is not really about diversion and even though I do think that most diverted Suboxone is used by addicts trying to stave off withdrawal, I always think about one of the first front-page articles I ever read about Suboxone. This story always stuck with me:

Quote:
Suboxone did not save Miles Malone, 20; it killed him. In 2010, a friend texted Mr. Malone an invitation to use the drug recreationally — “we can do the suboxins as soon as I give them to u, iight, dude?” — and he died that night in South Berwick, Me., of buprenorphine poisoning. The friend, Shawn Verrill, was sentenced this summer to 71 months in prison.

“I didn’t know you could overdose on Suboxone,” Mr. Verrill said in an interview at a federal prison in Otisville, N.Y. “We were just a bunch of friends getting high and hanging out, doing what 20-year-olds do. Then we went to sleep, and Miles never woke up.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/healt ... enace.html

When I read that quote: “I didn’t know you could overdose on Suboxone,” my immediate thought was that I didn’t know that, either!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:41 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
Ya that soul sadly, appeared to be opiate näive. What I failed to say and should have said earlier, better to make my point -- is this is a site where addicts or families/friends of addicts - considering bup -- can be really nervous about bup and could read your manslaughter comment to mean taking bup = death, that's what manslaughter means. The folks that come here are not opiate näive and would be unfortunate if they they assumed bup = death. I did not say it never happens as you clearly show it does! I would like to read that tox report tho...the police found TONS of other drugs at the 'dealer friends' apt where the OD death occurred. OD death tox reports w bup often show other drugs but the authorities and media can overly focus on bup. Some deserved...Most not imo... In the case you reference, the 'dealer friend', w years of priors, is in jail for manslaughter.

Sorry Army Mike, dragging dragging me back to you!!

Army Mike. First, thank you, thank you so much for your service. Head shaking how you were cut off your pain meds and then -- all the rest that followed.

Your Dr seems to understand your tough history. Dr J, the site owner here had a post I can't locate but maybe others can, that talks about his patient needing lots more bup, yet over time he as the patient slowly changed behavior, cut the dose down. I think the post was w in the last few months but then again time flies so IDK. Glad you have a Dr in your corner. Keep working on holding to 24mg! You don't want to have to pay big $$$ for the other 30 bup ! Buy a new jeep instead...ha

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:20 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:02 am
Posts: 17
I know this is not about diversion, I just wanted to clarify. I would never get rid of my suboxone, no way never.

I took 16mg this morning and left my box at home. I have been thinking about them but I know I will not feel any different if I took some.

So far so good and I know my issue is a small one on the scheme of things, I look back to the insanity of my actions in the past and cringe.

I have a good life NOW, what some might dream of. Sobriety, the job, wife, kids, cars, house and a Disney trip planned for January. All I need is to get this under control. What I fear the most, is losing the compulsion to take subs and picking up a compulsion to use dope.

I wonder how much suboxone actually makes me feel, It has been so long since I took ZERO. I sure hope taking ZERO and how I feel now is the same.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:15 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:02 am
Posts: 17
Where did everyone go?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:33 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:46 pm
Posts: 110
Dear ArmyMike,
I'm sure everyone is still here. I hope you do well by leaving your Subs at home while going to work & not having access to them. I'm sorry but I don't have any advice for you. I just wanted you to know that you aren't alone here. We usually all have issues with dosing in one form or another. Your's just happens to be one that not many folks have experienced (I think). When I started I had to drop my dose pretty quickly in order to function.

So, just wanted to wish you luck with your dosing! Hope that you can find the proper amount that will give you relief from your cravings with few side effects!

Best,
Dee

_________________
Today I Will Not Worry About the Things I Can Not Control


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:58 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:24 pm
Posts: 16
Armymike wrote:
I wonder how much suboxone actually makes me feel, It has been so long since I took ZERO. I sure hope taking ZERO and how I feel now is the same.


First of all, remember that it could take 3 days go to into withdrawal if you stop buprenorphine. Sometimes people feel fine even if they miss a day so they mistakenly believe they are not dependent on opioids any longer. Then day three withdrawal hits.

Taking zero long term will probably not feel the same for a while - probably months. Opioids affect the ability of the brain to produce dopamine for a while and, for some people, permanently. The result is not being able to feel happy even when you are doing fun things like taking your family to Disney.

Who knows if and when you will be able to reach your goal of being off all opiates? The ability to reach that goal depends on a lot of things that may not be in your control. However, the right direction is to take no more than is prescribed and to work on taking less. That, you do control.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:08 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:27 pm
Posts: 104
Hi ArmyMike,
Welcome to the forum. I just wanted to say I can empathize with the obsession/compulsion to take more Suboxone than prescribed and/or needed. I don't have an answer for why we do that or a solution, but I have felt very similarly at points.

For me it was mainly at the start of treatment when I actually just wasn't on the right dose of Suboxone. I was on 3 mg and burning through a month's prescription in less than 2 weeks. But, even as my dose began to feel adequate, I would go through more than I should.

I kept thinking "what the hell, why isn't this working, why do I need more, and the more I would take the more I would want and feel like I needed to take. To the point where it had zero to do with drug cravings, or withdrawal, it was just something new to obsess about, replacing my doc. It's just addict behavior. And that's what we have to address.

For me, I really, really wanted this to work because at the right dose Suboxone relieved my cravings for opiates, curbed that awful drug hunger, and improved my mood. Life felt so much better. So I worked really hard with my therapist, my psychiatrist, and my husband and made a plan.

My husband holds my Suboxone and gives it to me each day. It is kept in a safe and out of my sight. This was humiliating to me at first, to think I couldn't handle my own medication, but it wasn't something to be ashamed of, it was just a fact. I couldn't handle it. I still hate it sometimes, but mainly I'm happy I have a supportive husband to help me through this. He still keeps it out of my sight and gives it to me daily but it is not locked up. I don't know where it is in the house and I don't care. It feels liberating. One day I hope to be able to just do it myself, but I'm not pushing things since it's working now.

The other parts of my plan included my doctor giving me one week worth of medication and have weekly appointments for one month. Once he could see I could handle that amount of medication we moved to two weeks, then three weeks, and now I see him monthly. It worked- I actually thought about how much money I was spending on Dr's appointments and copays every time I was able to get my hand's on an extra Sub. I thought "really, you want to waste all that money and not even get high?" But that is the beauty of Suboxone- you can stop and think and make a decision, where with other drugs, you just can't, you just have to take them.

Finally I worked with my therapist very hard on my addictive, obsessive, compulsive thoughts and behaviors. We've used CBT to work on a lot of those things. I sit now with the uncomfortable feeling of having an irrational desire to take more Suboxone and I don't act on it. And the more you do that the less often you find those moments popping up.

I've been on Suboxone for a little over 6 months. I had a really rough start and have had bumps in the road. I still struggle with this issue and I may run 1 or 2 short in a month and everyone on my support team is aware. Its such an improvement, that is all you can ask for. So I'm far from perfect, but I'm getting better.

My advice, if I have any for you ArmyMike, is to gather a support team and ask for help. Then do whatever they suggest (professionals) whether it hurts your pride or your feelings or not. If you want to make it work you have to ask for help. Good luck, keep us updated!
Tragicom

_________________
"Life would be tragic if it weren't so funny"
Stephen Hawking


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:06 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
StatCoder wrote:
Opioids affect the ability of the brain to produce dopamine for a while...
This is true as we know from studies which is why for ex, tolerance occurs.

StatCoder wrote:
..and, for some people, permanently.
Your source? Besides NA, Recovery. org / addiction marketing websites who say this and get families to spend $$$ to scare loved ones into abstinence programs. The permanent dopamine loss from opiates has been refuted here before by Dr Junig, who states he reads most addiction articles and has not read anything on this. Folks here read your comments and could think long term bup use could cause this...

Your legit source? Not being to be pointy here, just want to know from where you get this info...Best tonight, Pel ps I'm still learning

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:13 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
ArmyMike, I've been around this site awhile and can recognize that Tragicom has a really great, upfront and vulnerable post to you. really well said. thx.

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group