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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:59 am 
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R Corey Waller, MD is a neuroscientist, Addiction Medicine and Pain Medicine physician. Around the 8 minute mark of this interesting talk, he addresses the issue of decreased dopamine production , potential destruction of neurons that produce dopamine, and a hypothesis about why some people will do fine with abstinence-based recovery while others will not. Much of it has to do with how much trauma may have happened at a young age, when substance abuse started, and whether normal coping mechanisms were allowed to develop before substances hijacked dopamine release.

https://youtu.be/70kQ4MJQqcg


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:00 am 
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You made a declarative statement that opioids, which can include bup right? can cause 'permanent' dopamine loss --- and then you later say its a potential, a hypothesis, unproven. There is a big difference. No brain scans on this. No studies. If you have info that long term bup use can result in permanent dopamine loss then we need to have it! That's what you implied!

I did listen to your video and there is a MAT treating MD who for a second talks about potential dopamine apoptosis, destruction but what is his source?

It might be, that you too treat some addicts, likely w bup, as part of your near world w this same Dr, given how and what you write?

We get declarative unproven statements here - get much misinformation and mischaracterization of MAT and bup that needs to be challenged - bc - bup treatment, can be so hard to encourage and justify to society/families/addicts. That's my point...

Sorry sorry Mike, dragging this back to you again...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:01 am 
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Thanks everyone, some good stuff for me to think about. I have way too much pride, don't know what to attribute it too, perhaps the Military or just bring a guy.

As for an update, I took one more strip when I got home from work, did some chores around the house, took my son to practice and my wife brought home chow. I was thinking about taking more but I started doing something and forgot about it.

I went to bed at normal time and woke up feeling good, Always do. Took my other meds and my 16mg this morning first thing and watched Married with Children while it dissolved (normal routine that I love sticking too) then showered and out the door for work (at work now).

I have been leaving my suboxone in my gun safe, I have two 11 year olds and a 17 year old so my wife wanted them locked up if I don't carry them with me. Leaving it home makes me think of it less, I cant just reach down for my work bag and grab some.

It is working, this blog is keeping me accountable. I actually look forward to checking for feedback. Other than that, all is good. I have pretty bad PTSD from combat and I see a shrink for it. I see him this evening so I am going to talk to him about my issue with the suboxone. He does not deal with medications, he not a prescribing shrink.....psychologist???.

Talk to everyone later today. Mike


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:46 am 
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Mike one of the things Dr Junig has recommended for ppl that tend to reach for extra is when u feel that need to take extra, stop and go do something for 15-20 minutes. If u go do something, anything like cleaning house lol or walk ur dog, the need to take extra will pass. This absolutely does work if u do it. Maybe just doing that every time, you'll see an improvement.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:07 am 
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Pelican wrote:
You made a declarative statement that opioids, which can include bup right? can cause 'permanent' dopamine loss --- and then you later say its a potential, a hypothesis, unproven. There is a big difference. No brain scans on this. No studies. If you have info that long term bup use can result in permanent dopamine loss then we need to have it! That's what you implied!


My purpose in mentioning long term dopamine loss was actually to encourage Armymike to consider taking buprenorphine long term because he was wondering he would feel normal taking zero. My answer would be probably not for a good while and possibly ever - not because of the buprenorphine but because of what happens to the brain before and during the period of opioid abuse.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:09 am 
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Well it is Sunday morning and I wanted to check in. Been busy with the kids and only took 16mg yesterday morning, didn't even feel a difference.

Today is Sunday morning, just took my 16mg and about to do my chores and start my day.

Will check in later.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:22 am 
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Good old Sunday mornings!

Great job so far armymike. I think it's really important to get urself in the routine of only taking 16mg and it'll be just like taking ur routine medicine every day. U said ur prescribed 24mg right (I hope I got that right lol sorry if I misunderstood) so if u take 16mg, ur able to actually stockpile some medicine! Wouldn't that be a great thing going from overtaking to having extra? What a great reward for urself!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:06 am 
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I am prescribed 32mg a day, I picked up enough for 24mg a day.

Last 3 days been taking 16mg and feel the same.

I only miss the act of taking something.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Quote:
I only miss the act of taking something.


that is an important insight and part of recovery management.

Can you roll this into your PTSD treatment when discussing trigger management? I am assuming that you are receiving treatment from the VA. Most PTSD treatment has a CBT or similar focus now.
SMART Recovery has specific exercises for 'managing thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Hey ArmyMike,
Checking in on you. How were the last couple of days? Hang in there! P

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:01 am 
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GREETINGS YALL (jeff foxworthy)

I am doing good, I found that I was so tired from taking so much that I was resorting back to some old habits. Like taking a nap in the car during lunch!! I wake up after 20-30 and feel amazing but that is not suppose to happen.

I had a few good days and a few bad but the last couple have been taking 16mg in the morning. I have been sleeping better and feeling better, how strange.

I went thru some badness this week when my rehab buddy pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter for helping someone shoot heroin and they died. So it was sad but a reminder of the chaos.

I have also been thinking so much about how much I don't miss the chaos. I have put myself in some terrible places and positions.

Anyway, I hope everyone else is doing well.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:57 am 
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It really is true that when ur taking doses of buprenorphine on the larger side, u tend to feel a lot better on a lower amount. It makes perfect sense to me that ur feeling much better now that ur not taking big amounts. That's great news armymike!

And I'm so sorry to hear about ur friend and the friend of his that passed away! I've heard of that happening before.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:04 am 
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Hey ArmyMike,

Of course as usual, I agree w and pirate ideas from jennjenn.

I too, like many here, took more bup. I remember being prescribed 24mg -- and taking 32mg, and being mad - that it didn't -- DO more. More did not do anything - more.

So. it was really weird, later on, when I got sleepy and tired on those bup doses and perhaps unknowingly bc of that, I dropped my dose.

YOU ArmyMike are doing -- well!!

Thanks for coming here!! More - let us hear more from you, Best always, P

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Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Well, I am still doing well. I went to my appointment today and still have over 20 strips left over. Given today was the 27th day I am still doing very well. This was the first time I have been to appointment with any strips in my possession.

There are three doctors at the practice go to. There is an old man who is awesome, a French lady who takes no BS and the other lady (not making this about race) who I hate. She belittles me, and it is not me taking it that way or being sensitive. She said I had no metabolites in my last test. Then she said I had them but they were low. Then she said it was something about NORbup. I had to put this thing under my tongue till it turned blue.

She lectures me about my PTSD and how I need treatment. LOOK AT MY FILE. I have been to treatment.

I knew I should have waited for the old man. He talks WITH me for 30 min and I leave.

JUST VENTING.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Armymike,

I'm in a similar though decidedly smaller boat than yours. I routinely run out, even after upping the dose I was given at my original intake. I switched doctors about seven months ago. For a time, I was getting my Zubsolv (another brand for the buperenorphine/naloxone combo, and the only one my insurance will cover because privatized for profit healthcare) from the same doctor who was giving me my monthly supply of Norco. Things are better now, but I find I do better dosing three times a day instead of two, and I do feel something, even if it's only psychosomatic, with that mid day dose. I'm vascillating whether or not to come clean with my doctor this week. They're very easy going, but I fear that same relaxed attitude might glibly land me in weekly visits I can't financially afford. And which would also mean letting my wife know that I have failed once again on what is easily my sixth or seventh chance with her. There's a lot riding on it. Simply put though, I identify with your struggle. I'm on the equivalent of 16mg daily and do better when I can have that middle dose, bumping me up to 24.
Maybe the addict in me misses the obsessive part of running out, the puzzle of finding more. More, I think and hope that three doses a day is just my target amount and we can all move forward from there. I hope also that everything works out for you. Pride can be a killer. Literally. Hoping I can swallow mine on Monday and make that phone call.


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