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 Post subject: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:19 am 
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Hi my name is Chris, Im 52, and I'm an addict. I have used Kratom all day everyday for just over two years. Before that I was addicted to Vicodin for about 6 months. Before that I was addicted to Phenibut for 5 years. Before that I was prescribed Ritalin and ended up crushing and snorting it for about a year. Before that its been alcohol, pot, coke off and on, basically every common abused drug all the way back to when I was 14.

15 years ago I was diagnosed with clinical OCD and put on various SSRI's and Ativan. I have been on 20mg of Lexapro for the past 5 years, and have never exceeded 1mg of Ativan per day except once or twice a year, and when they have administered it IV in the hospital for panic attacks (4 times now total)
I have also been unable to work the past 15 years because of my OCD, and have been on SSDI disability for it. My only medical insurance now is Medicare part A/B/C.

Up until about 2 months ago the Kratom has worked really well for keeping me motivated and interested in life. I have lots of hobbies, study the Bible a lot, and am happily married, very blessed in many ways. But this Kratom is not working any more, and Im in what feels like a constant state of withdrawl all day, often curled up in the fetal position, shaking, sweating but feeling cold, cant eat, complete terror and hopelessness, crying, I guess you all know the drill.

I have bought several more newer to me strains of Kratom this week, and have tried decreasing and increasing the daily doses. By about 7:00pm the several past days I think I have enough Kratom in me to feel good enough to eat and do web research. Last night I was even feeling good enough to work on one of my radio control Jeep models, but then again this morning it just starts all over again, can't even barely get out of bed, can only get Boost drink down my stomach.

This has got to end. I'm very scared. People on all the Kratom forums are using Kratom to get of buprenorphine, and I've only seen so far a case or two of people being put on bupe to get off Kratom.
I've been calling all kinds of drug rehabs, detox units, hospitals, and doctors offices around my area here in Orange County, Ca, and except in a couple cases no one has even heard of Kratom. I have found two doctors offices that have Sub docs, but they told me I would not be given it if I didn't show positive test results for opioid's. All my research so far says Kratom does not show up in drug test.

The couple of rehabs I did find that had heard of Kratom said they would give me a small dose of buprenorphine and have me weened off it in 7 days by the time they sent me home, which seems like a prescription for instant relapse to me from the bupe research I've been doing. They also said I would be taken off my Ativan, though they said nothing about my Lexapro. But these particular programs do not accept my Medicare, and charge mega thousands of dollars :(

The main hospital in my area that does accept my Medicare plan would not accept me because of my OCD, dual diagnosis they call it. My psychiatrist has not heard of Kratom, and just smiled and said last time I saw him 'I have no problem with herbal supplements if you think they help you' I feel it's time for a new psychiatrist at the least. I wish I could find a psychiatrist like Dr. Junig who treats addiction and OCD.

So that is my introduction. I dont know what to do. Like I said Im very scared. It looks like buprenorphine might be a possible tool, and Im grateful for all the information Dr. Junig has put up on the web to help me understand buprenorphine better. If anyone has any ideas please Im desperate. The Kratom forums just seem all about getting more high on it, or how people have kicked opiates with it, and everybody is very negative about buprenorphine there. Ok Im off to explore the forums here while I can. Thanks for reading this far.

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:24 am 
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I took kratom for a while....until they recently yanked it from the shelves in Tennessee...of course....seems like everytime I find a way to get by, it gets destroyed or taken lol...anyway...I would be scared if I were you also...simply because they (they being doctors) just aren't familiar with kratom. Scary place to be. I highly suggest getting on suboxone....it will stop the withdrawals but you are going to have to go about it from a specific angle because you are correct, they won't help you if kratom isn't going to show up on a screen


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:22 pm 
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One of the biggest problems with Kratom is the same thing that allows it to exist-- the fact that it is poorly understood, poorly researched, and poorly regulated. I had a patient a number of years ago who experienced multi-organ-system failure from kratom; after many tests, the docs concluded that a toxin had been added to the Kratom, but they never figured out the exact toxin involved. The experience was frightening; for a few days it looked like he was going to die, and nobody had any idea what was killing him.

Kratom apparently has mu effects and non-mu effects. Buprenorphine would eliminate withdrawal from the mu effects at least... and if you changed to buprenorphine, people would at least know what you are dealing with.

The other 'options' is stopping everything; I believe in the body's ability to heal itself. After a month or two, the kratom will be out of your system and you should be back to normal, whatever that is. I realize that stopping everything is much harder than I make it sound--- but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Goo luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:09 pm 
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Thanks for the reply doc. Have you read Matsumoto's pharmacology report on Mitragyna Speciosa?
http://mitizane.ll.chiba-u.jp/metadb/up ... 006-17.pdf
I know several years back a company was busted for mixing in Tramadol with their Kratom. Thats is another of the frustrations, except for growing it yourself, ones never quite sure what they're getting, even from reputable dealers. What Im finding ironically frustrating is all the people that claim they got off of Buprenorphine with the aid of Kratom, and saying 'whatever you do stay away from Buprenorphine' But like you say, at least Buprenorphine is controlled. Well back to my pharmacology studies, and thanks again for all the bupe resources and education.

Chris

admin1 wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Kratom is the same thing that allows it to exist-- the fact that it is poorly understood, poorly researched, and poorly regulated. I had a patient a number of years ago who experienced multi-organ-system failure from kratom; after many tests, the docs concluded that a toxin had been added to the Kratom, but they never figured out the exact toxin involved. The experience was frightening; for a few days it looked like he was going to die, and nobody had any idea what was killing him.

Kratom apparently has mu effects and non-mu effects. Buprenorphine would eliminate withdrawal from the mu effects at least... and if you changed to buprenorphine, people would at least know what you are dealing with.

The other 'options' is stopping everything; I believe in the body's ability to heal itself. After a month or two, the kratom will be out of your system and you should be back to normal, whatever that is. I realize that stopping everything is much harder than I make it sound--- but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Goo luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:45 pm 
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This may sound stupid but whats kratom???


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:36 pm 
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It's not stupid at all, as you can see from the discussion above not many people outside of the using community know what it is, even doctors.

It is a natural herb, well...it's actually dried leaves from a tree I believe, that mimics the effect of opiates. The people who promote it's use claim that it is all natural and has none of the bad side effects of opiates, except for addiction.

The problem addressed above by Dr. J comes in when people buy from dealers who add in other things that can be harmful. Since the product is unregulated by the FDA it isn't monitored and you never know what you are getting. It's usually purchased through online dealers or local "smoke shops". Comparible to the way the incense stuff that was going around a few years ago was.

I first heard of it when I was researching the Thomas (?) recipe for home opiate detox.



Q

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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:01 pm 
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The technical name is Mitragyna Speciosa, a tree in the same botanical family as coffee actually. It has over 20 psycho active alkyloids, the two main ones being Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxy-Mitragynine, the second being a full opioid agonist 4-6 times more powerful than morphine. I posted a link in my response to the doc above to the full pharma report by Matsumotu in 2006. It is currently on the US DEA watch list. I ended up going to an addictionologist Dr. because I got severe mental and physical withdrawls after just 24 hours of stopping what had been all day every day use for two years straight, mostly of quality leaf with occasional extracts. Ive been on low dose of suboxone now for 12 days and am not doing very good, so Ill probably be posting my experience so far in another thread since this is the introduction thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:25 am 
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My recently ex-roommate takes Kratom every day. He's had a similar but more serious opiate problem than me (>6 Years) and started on it after his Suboxone doc weaned him off before he was ready and willing to do so. He's doing really well and not using otherwise, but I think I'll give him a heads up about the possibility of additives like you get with hard drugs. I hadn't heard that was a consideration with Krat yet.

Just when you think you've found something that you can live with, somebody messes it up, hmph.


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:13 pm 
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So you can get high off it? Not that i'm going to try lol


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:21 pm 
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I would say, not really.

Maybe an opiate Naive person could. But, it's more about keeping the wd away. I tried it before I got on suboxone and it worked pretty well for a couple weeks. But you quickly build up a tolerance to it. AND, you have to take like a TON of the crap to make it work. It tastes like SH*T and always made my stomach hurt a bit. I looked at it as a last ditch effort to wean off the pills I was taking, but it definitely wasn't for me.

I'm sure someone else will have a different opinion, but that's mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:23 pm 
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Interesting. Is it even legal?


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:34 pm 
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For now it is, but as Kloud said above it is currently on the DEA watch list.

I don't think it will be long before they treat it exactly like they did the bath salts and the incense. Manufacturers are trying to get around it by putting on the packaging that it is not for human consumption...but everyone knows thats a bunch of bull.

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 Post subject: Re: Addicted to Kratom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:04 pm 
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qhorsegal2 wrote:
For now it is, but as Kloud said above it is currently on the DEA watch list.

I don't think it will be long before they treat it exactly like they did the bath salts and the incense. Manufacturers are trying to get around it by putting on the packaging that it is not for human consumption...but everyone knows thats a bunch of bull.


I also imagine this will happen sooner or later, though it doesn't drive people mad like bath salts so it isn't on "EMERGENCY GET THIS NEW SH*T OFF THE STREETS" status just yet.


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