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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Well, here I am, I've been on Suboxone since 2009. I've started with Suboxone 16mg pill to 8mg pill to 4mg pill back up to 8mg pill to 8mg film and currently on Suboxone 16mg film, all in 4 years. There's no stopping Suboxone for me. I'm addicted to it and knew I would be from the very start. It makes me feel good and gives me energy. What I don't like about Suboxone is the constipation and since I've been taking the film I needed to increase to 16mg and I've become forgetful to the point where I can't remember places, street names, dates, etc. Did I post this before? I kind of remember telling someone about not remembering street names. Anyway, my questions are: How can anyone who has an addiction problem become non-addicted, especially to Suboxone? I tried last summer so hard to stop Suboxone, but I couldn't, the side effects were horrible. My doc gave me the proper meds to help with the side effects, but they didn't work, the only thing that worked was getting back on Suboxone. I was thinking about Hypnotism. Do you think Hypnotism will help me quit Suboxone? Don't you wish there was a pill that could help one stop Suboxone? How ironic the thought. Anyway, you can call me a skeptic, but I don't believe anyone is going to, or has kicked the evil clutches of Suboxone. I wouldn't mind staying on it if the prices weren't so high. Remember when Suboxone film was around $5.00? Well, now that the pill will be out of production in March, Suboxone film is now at the ripe price of over $7.00/film and again, Target pharmacy has increased my film from $7.00/film and some change to $8.00/film and some change in one month. I confronted the pharmacist about the increase, and he said it has to do with the "Market" as in "Stock Market". I'm dumbfounded. Can anyone figure that one out? Do some pharmaceutical medications go up and down in price at the pharmacy according to the "Stock Market"? I need serious help in stopping Suboxone, but I can't find any place that deals with helping people stop Suboxone where I live. I searched every where, but it's like if you don't have $20,000 dollars to go to Florida and get a rapid detox, there's nothing else.....for me that is. Thanks for listening.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:36 pm 
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Hi Goodygirl,

I'm sorry you feel trapped in the cycle. I know the feeling. You asked:

"Anyway, my questions are: How can anyone who has an addiction problem become non-addicted, especially to Suboxone? I tried last summer so hard to stop Suboxone, but I couldn't, the side effects were horrible."

In my opinion, to get off suboxone and successfully make it through withdrawals, the negatives from using suboxone have to outweigh the negatives from detoxing. When you're in that mindset, it's easier to get through the crappy feeling because you associate being on suboxone as being even crappier. Does that make sense?

Did you taper to a low dose before you tried to quite subs? Or did you jump off at a fairly high dose?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:19 pm 
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I dont think your pharmacist meant the "stock market" when he said the prices went up because of the market.. he was referring to the drug market. I havent heard anything about discontinuing the tablets after March, IF that does even happen, it wont be for a long time. There have been MANY people that have successfully gotten off of suboxone, I did it twice. The difference is that most of us dont look at it as being "addicted" to suboxone, we are dependent on the med. You need to taper off of it slowly if possible, if you cant do that then your only choices are rehab, detox or something along those lines. 4mg to 16mg is a very large jump in dosage.. I dont know how if you were doing fine on 4mg that you would all of a sudden need 16mg again, you dont build a tolerance to this medication. I dont know, im trying to help you but alot of what you say doesnt make sense to me.. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.. we will try to help to the best of our ability. Good luck otherwise and im sorry your in this situation.


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 Post subject: Addicted forever
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:05 pm 
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You are not the only one who feels like they can't live without suboxone everyday. Sometimes my brain gets a bit cloudy but I can shake it off if I start doing something active. I dont have any reason to stop it right now unless my doctor told me there was no more. I would have to wean myself down with what I have now. Never have any left over and see my dr 2 or 3 days early, he says nothing about it so far. He does ask me every time if I want to stop and I say no. Not yet. I thought maybe reading some good posts here would help me.

Don't give up. Someday we both may quit.

BD


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:33 am 
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tinydancer wrote:
Hi Goodygirl,

I'm sorry you feel trapped in the cycle. I know the feeling. You asked:

"Anyway, my questions are: How can anyone who has an addiction problem become non-addicted, especially to Suboxone? I tried last summer so hard to stop Suboxone, but I couldn't, the side effects were horrible."

In my opinion, to get off suboxone and successfully make it through withdrawals, the negatives from using suboxone have to outweigh the negatives from detoxing. When you're in that mindset, it's easier to get through the crappy feeling because you associate being on suboxone as being even crappier. Does that make sense?

Did you taper to a low dose before you tried to quite subs? Or did you jump off at a fairly high dose?


I tapered down to 4mg, then I jumped. I wasn't really ready. I didn't want to deal with the depression again and what makes me think I won't go back to drinking and doing drugs? I need to know why I became addicted in the first place. I need to know why I suddenly, out of the blue, became depressed. I hated my job, I hated my life, I hated everything about me. Why, I asked me self? I don't feel like that now. As a matter of fact I feel normal now that I've been on Suboxone for 4 years. But I don't want to be on Suboxone because of the stigma that's attached to them.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:38 am 
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tinydancer wrote:
Hi Goodygirl,

I'm sorry you feel trapped in the cycle. I know the feeling. You asked:

"Anyway, my questions are: How can anyone who has an addiction problem become non-addicted, especially to Suboxone? I tried last summer so hard to stop Suboxone, but I couldn't, the side effects were horrible."

In my opinion, to get off suboxone and successfully make it through withdrawals, the negatives from using suboxone have to outweigh the negatives from detoxing. When you're in that mindset, it's easier to get through the crappy feeling because you associate being on suboxone as being even crappier. Does that make sense?

Did you taper to a low dose before you tried to quite subs? Or did you jump off at a fairly high dose?


I jumped from a high dose of 4mg. I know I wasn't ready. I knew I would fail. I feared the depression would return. I like the way Suboxone makes me feel. I like not feeling depressed. I like having energy. I just don't like the stigma that is attached to Suboxone, among other things like the price, withdrawals, constipation and forgetfulness.


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 Post subject: Re: Addicted forever
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:57 am 
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Bupduped wrote:
You are not the only one who feels like they can't live without suboxone everyday. Sometimes my brain gets a bit cloudy but I can shake it off if I start doing something active. I dont have any reason to stop it right now unless my doctor told me there was no more. I would have to wean myself down with what I have now. Never have any left over and see my dr 2 or 3 days early, he says nothing about it so far. He does ask me every time if I want to stop and I say no. Not yet. I thought maybe reading some good posts here would help me.

Don't give up. Someday we both may quit.

BD


I'm the same way. I find myself going to the doctor 3,4 and sometimes 5 days early. He doesn't mind. He'll even rewrite my prescription in a way, so the pharmacy won't give me a problem when I go to fill 4 days early. I've been taking Sub. for 4 years now. I don't like that I've been forgetting. I noticed it more when I switched to the film because they are stopping the pills. I use to take less than 8mg of the pill, now I'm taking 16mg of the film. I find that to be really weird. It's like the film is weaker, or something. I think they played with the ingredients. I don't know, maybe it's all in my addict mind. I hope one day someone is there to help me find why I turned to drugs in the first place. I personally think I have a endorphin deficiency.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:02 pm 
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^ Hmm. that's interesting. I found the film to be stronger. I needed less. That's a big jump from 8 to 16.. I don't think the film is that much weaker unless your are defective somehow. What does your doctor say when you told him?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:40 pm 
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BeautifulMess wrote:
I dont think your pharmacist meant the "stock market" when he said the prices went up because of the market.. he was referring to the drug market. I havent heard anything about discontinuing the tablets after March, IF that does even happen, it wont be for a long time. There have been MANY people that have successfully gotten off of suboxone, I did it twice. The difference is that most of us dont look at it as being "addicted" to suboxone, we are dependent on the med. You need to taper off of it slowly if possible, if you cant do that then your only choices are rehab, detox or something along those lines. 4mg to 16mg is a very large jump in dosage.. I dont know how if you were doing fine on 4mg that you would all of a sudden need 16mg again, you dont build a tolerance to this medication. I dont know, im trying to help you but alot of what you say doesnt make sense to me.. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.. we will try to help to the best of our ability. Good luck otherwise and im sorry your in this situation.


Go to Suboxone.com, right there on their front page, go to your right and the 3rd box down, right there in the big box it states: UPDATE FOR SUBOXONE TABLET PATIENTS discontinuing distribution March 18, 2013.

What's the difference between the drug market and the stock market? The only "drug market" I ever heard of was the illegal kind. My pharmacist was taking about the Stock Market. Here in the US we pay the highest prescription drug prices in the world. Why? Because of the laws that are set forth, regulations and policies that favor drug manufacturers and because (Richette and Backster) creators of Suboxone, made it into one big Monopoly.

And where in my original post did I say I was doing fine on 4mg of Suboxone? I didn't and that's why it doesn't make sense to you.

And the next time you see one of my post, beautifulmess, please don't try and help me. Just pass it by, you'll be doing us both a favor.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:46 pm 
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tinydancer wrote:
^ Hmm. that's interesting. I found the film to be stronger. I needed less. That's a big jump from 8 to 16.. I don't think the film is that much weaker unless your are defective somehow. What does your doctor say when you told him?


It was very easy for me to go from 8mg back up to 16mg and as for my doctors thoughts, he doesn't mind a bit. He likes me to keep coming back to him. He once told me that I'm helping him pay for his kids college tuition. Nice isn't he.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:14 pm 
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I feel your pain goodygirl!!! At least (if you are on Sub for the rest of your life) you won't risk overdose, death, or even worse... jail.

It's good to know we aren't alone in all of this.

Suboxone saved my life. I nearly needed a liver transplant when I first got on it in 2006 because of all the Vic's and Perc's I was taking.

This Sunday I am stopping cold turkey, no tapering, from a 24 mg per day dose. I know that it can be done... I'm determined to not be chained to any substance any longer (not to mention I lost my insurance AND doctor last week).

I posted a thread on here about it... and I'll post updates to it every day.

But if you are in a position where you ARE ABLE to stay on Sub for the rest of your life, don't look at it as necessarily a bad thing. There are much worse positions to be in.

Your friend,

-J


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:52 pm 
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A couple months ago. Then I found this site..I ended up and speaking to someone that is non-judgmental and has been there.. Or here... Where we all are..... she told me, " its the quality of life we choose to change, if your quality of life is better than so be it." At some point you had enough of chasing the.....(insert your choice here) around right? So at some point you will be strong enough on your own without suboxone. (Crutches if you will) I was down to 2mg at one point and then back to 16mg... I was not ready!!! I am more recently down to about 4... I am going to get there, I will take that leap, and its not because I don't want to be addicted to suboxone its because I am taking myself down slow and i know i am ready. I have heard that coming off pills is easier than suboxone but if we could taper off pills we would not have take suboxone nor would suboxone be doing so well!! Then I will stay active with people that don't use and pray to god to give me the strength that I know I have to stay away from it! There are too many people that haven't survived this. My sons father is one of those people... When your ready.... Time heals..


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:37 am 
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JustJustin wrote:
I feel your pain goodygirl!!! At least (if you are on Sub for the rest of your life) you won't risk overdose, death, or even worse... jail.

It's good to know we aren't alone in all of this.

Suboxone saved my life. I nearly needed a liver transplant when I first got on it in 2006 because of all the Vic's and Perc's I was taking.

This Sunday I am stopping cold turkey, no tapering, from a 24 mg per day dose. I know that it can be done... I'm determined to not be chained to any substance any longer (not to mention I lost my insurance AND doctor last week).

I posted a thread on here about it... and I'll post updates to it every day.

But if you are in a position where you ARE ABLE to stay on Sub for the rest of your life, don't look at it as necessarily a bad thing. There are much worse positions to be in.

Your friend,

-J



Thanks, Justin and let me know how you're doing. This Sunday is just a few days away and I want you to know if you can't do it, try to have a few subs nearby.....just in case. I tried jumping at 4mg, as you can see, I'm still here...lol You're right when you say I shouldn't look at it as a bad thing because there are ppl who take heart meds for the rest of their life, diabetes meds for the rest of their life, etc. I wish you all the luck in the world, Justin, that you succeed on your quest to end all substances once and for all. Good Luck! Keep me posted. I'm not here everyday, so when I am, I'll look for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:45 am 
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Charley wrote:
A couple months ago. Then I found this site..I ended up and speaking to someone that is non-judgmental and has been there.. Or here... Where we all are..... she told me, " its the quality of life we choose to change, if your quality of life is better than so be it." At some point you had enough of chasing the.....(insert your choice here) around right? So at some point you will be strong enough on your own without suboxone. (Crutches if you will) I was down to 2mg at one point and then back to 16mg... I was not ready!!! I am more recently down to about 4... I am going to get there, I will take that leap, and its not because I don't want to be addicted to suboxone its because I am taking myself down slow and i know i am ready. I have heard that coming off pills is easier than suboxone but if we could taper off pills we would not have take suboxone nor would suboxone be doing so well!! Then I will stay active with people that don't use and pray to god to give me the strength that I know I have to stay away from it! There are too many people that haven't survived this. My sons father is one of those people... When your ready.... Time heals..


Thanks, Charley. It's good to know there are ppl out there who understand because they were there in the same situation. I want so bad to wean back down to 4mg, but part of me just doesn't want to. And, so as long as I have this struggle between my two selves (the one that does and the one that doesn't) I'll just take it day by day.
Have a great day, Charley! :)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:13 pm 
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goodygirl wrote:
tinydancer wrote:
^ Hmm. that's interesting. I found the film to be stronger. I needed less. That's a big jump from 8 to 16.. I don't think the film is that much weaker unless your are defective somehow. What does your doctor say when you told him?


It was very easy for me to go from 8mg back up to 16mg and as for my doctors thoughts, he doesn't mind a bit. He likes me to keep coming back to him. He once told me that I'm helping him pay for his kids college tuition. Nice isn't he.


This is one of the reason i stopped going to my sub dr.....he never wanted me to be off of them i am sure i was putting his kids thru college or buying him a new car while i drive around in a piece of crap becuz i have to make sure i have my $ for the dr visit and for the subs....Let me tell u that i am now 16 days off of subs ya the 1st wk sucked and ya i dont feel great and have all kinds of energy anymore BUT i know all of that will return someday & I am willing to wait it out.....Now the key to getting off the subs is tapering u must must taper it is the only way to go!!!

But u have to want to be free of it dont get me wrong yes Suboxone saved my life BUT in the end I had to save my life from Suboxone I wanted to be free of any addiction 13 yrs is to long at least for me it is.......Getting off this drug is doable no it wont b a cake walk but if u do it right and take the advice of the people on this site (they know what there talking about) I felt very fortunate to come across it and all the advice ive been given and ive taken it and it has really helped......Good luck please let me know if u need anything just remember u can b free of Suboxone!!!!! :lol:

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Sometimes the place I go is so deep & dark & desperate I just dont no how everyday u save my life....RF


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:13 pm 
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goodygirl - Before you consider quiting Suboxone, you need to work on your addiction. You say that when you began taking sub you knew you were going to abuse it, and that's just what you did. But now you say it's an evil drug which has you in a lifelong addiction. There's nothing evil about Suboxone or any other drug. If it weren't for Suboxone I'm pretty sure I'd be dead right now. How do you expect any medication, and in particular Suboxone, to work when you don't take it as prescribed and abuse it? You also say that when you did quit, you did so at 4mg. That's equivalent (relatively speaking) to going cold turkey off 120mg of Morphine, so I have no doubt you suffered. When I decided it was time to stop taking sub, I tapered down to 12 micrograms and felt no withdrawal or PAWS at all, and that was nearly 3 years ago. You can read stories on this forum by many people who have tapered and quit, and you can convince yourself that since you can't nobody else can, but that's just not the truth.

You asked what could make an addict a non-addict. A real commitment to sobriety is at the top of my list. Losing your job, your family, your freedom and your life also seem to be right up there too, but it would be a good idea to get serious and try to take care of business before it comes to that point. Best of luck!


P.S. The pharmacist wasn't referring to the stock market when he explained why the price of Suboxone went up.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:25 pm 
I quit subs after being on them for 4 years. When I was on them, my entire life revolved around taking them. I loved my subs and couldnt imagine living without them. I did the same thing where I took more subs than I was Rx'd for the first few months, and sporadically after that for the next 4 years. All true addicts do the same so dont let anyone make u feel bad about that.

Ive been sub free now for 6 months and I can assure you my life is immeasurably better in almost every way. Im happier, I take pleasure in things that used to be meaningless to me when I was on subs (i.e., having a simple conversation with someone about sports or recent events). I look better and I feel better, straight up. Not to mention the countless other perks of being sub free such as: no consitpation, not having to devote the 45 mins of not being able to talk or swallow, no more living in constant fear of my sub dr getting shut down by the DEA and me being thereby screwed (which is not uncommon where Im from), no more spending hundreds of dollars a month on copays and dr fees, and the list goes on.

During my time on subs, I knew I was addicted to them hardcore and I never really believed I would be able to quit. I tried every method of quitting but what finally worked for me was just going cold turkey. In my experience, not only with myself but with other sub patients I used to talk with at my sub dr's office, cold turkey is the best option.

First off, if anyone tells you they tapered so perfectly that they quit subs without experiencing any withdrawal is either a liar or is just trying to encourage you but in reality is just giving u false hope. Its impossible to quit subs and not withdrawal, there is no other way about it, Im sorry. Second, if you have the discipline to taper all the way down to crumbs, then you are the exception not the rule, because real addicts (such as myself and the majority of others on subs) simply cannot do that. If I was that disciplined around opiates, I wouldnt have had to get into a sub program in the first place. Third, tapering really just prolonges an already long and grueling process of withdrawaling.

My advice to you, consider the reality of the situation: you will be much higher (happier, more enthusiastic about life, MUCH less anxious) when your sub free and sober. Once you come to that realization, thats when its time to quit, and thats actually how you quit (at least thats how I quit, and I loved my subs, but I loved being happy even more). Good luck to you and one last word of advice: Quitting suboxone is no where near is difficult as you think it is when your on subs. Looking back on it, it just simply wasnt that bad, and after I quit I felt scammed bc I felt like I wasted 4 years and should have quit sooner, since I felt so much better after I quit.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:28 pm 
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Can I just say for me tapering was the best. But I did a very short taper. I went from doing a LOT of heroine and pain pills... then straight to Sub at first major signs of withdrawal. So I can't speak for people who have been on Sub long term. I personally feel tapering would be the best, less painful way. Although... not painless. Once you go completely off it is difficult. I never got high from Sub... I just got more of a sense of normalcy. This is why I could taper no matter how many sat in my medicine cabinet. The withdrawal from tiny crumbs was very uncomfortable... I can't imagine the withdrawal from quilting cold turkey off high doses.

Everybody's body is different... It seems we all have very similar experiences when we go cold turkey off Opiates (ULTIMATE HELL!!! and I thank god this time around I had Sub... it was still hell getting completely off, but nothing like that ULTIMATE HELL from opiates). Sub experiences very quite a bit person-to-person.

I'm one of those that does not find Sub evil. I find Heroin and pain pills evil.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:33 pm 
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SoberJon - So you abused Suboxone right from the beginning just like the original poster and now you're bitching about it? I really don't understand why so many people come to this site proclaiming how horrible and evil a medication Suboxone is after they admit to purposely misusing it. Did you actually expect a different outcome? You do know that you would be in the same position had you abused any other opiate, be that full agonist or partial. Why didn't you make arraingments with the pharmacy to give you only so many pills per week until you felt as if you had some control? Why couldn't you give them to your husband or wife, mother or father or someone else close so they could give you the proper dose? You didn't because your intention was to use your medication incorrectly. You say your life is now immeasurably better now that you are no longer taking suboxone... with the way you abused them I can believe it.

As far as withdrawals, I don't think I've ever heard anyone who tapered claim that they did not experience at least some discomfort during the process, but from experience I can say the effects were minimal and quite managable. Tapering as low as I did afforded me the luxury of not having to deal with withdrawal or PAWS once I jumped (or hopped really). From my experience it was the lasting depression, lack of energy and inability to find pleasure in anything that would always do me in. I'm fairly certain that this is the reason most people fail when jumping at high doses instead of tapering properly - the PAWS just wear you down over time. For long term success, I'm convinced for many it entails taking suboxone as prescribed for a minimum of one year. During that time period you should be doing everything possible to increase your chance of recovery - exercise, eat healthy, cut all ties with people who will surely bring you down, therapy, cultivate healthy new interests, etc. You really have to make more than a half-assed effort when confronting this problem.

You say you couldn't find pleasure in a simple conversation about sports because of suboxone. That wasn't my experience at all. The first few days I did feel like I had a slight buzz, but after that I felt pretty much like I always had when I was clean - no happier, but certainly no sadder... surely able to find pleasure in simple conversation. Again, I guess the trick is to take them as prescribed and not abuse them.

I'm not sure I understand your logic when you say that "real addicts" can't taper down to low doses of suboxone. I was taking over 800mgs of Morphine, Fent and Oxys every single day before I began suboxone treatment. I can assure you, that's about as real as it gets.

It's funny how the content of your post, goodygirl's and the person who PM'd me yesterday all seem so much alike. I guess I'm a cynic because I think 90% of what I see and hear around me in everyday life is bullshit, so I really only responded becuase I thought you guys were way up there in the 99% range.

If I sound unsympathetic it's because I am - this is not a game.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:59 pm 
lol @ bronzebeta. First off, when did I complain about suboxone? Lol Not once in my post did I "bitch about" anything. I was just telling my story. I really have no idea what your referring to on that one, please elaborate.

Second, you said " I don't think I've ever heard anyone who tapered claim that they did not experience at least some discomfort during the process" which is funny bc the reason I said that was bc of your post directly above mine where you said, and I quote " When I decided it was time to stop taking sub, I tapered down to 12 micrograms and felt no withdrawal or PAWS at all, and that was nearly 3 years ago." Since you had said that, I felt the need to address that in my post.

Third, you said "I was taking over 800mgs of Morphine, Fent and Oxys every single day before I began suboxone treatment". Thats not possible, Im sorry, you would most certainly be dead, regardless of your tolerance. Nobody can take 800mgs of fentanyl, oxy, or even morphine and not fatally overdose. However, what I meant by real addict was you have an inability to control your drug use. Some people use drugs, addicts abuse drugs. I was most certainly an addict when I got into the sub program, as the vast majority of people are. I took more than I was rx'd bc I couldnt help it, thats how I was with opiates. Most people do the same thing when they start on subs, Im not complaining about it, subs are designed for you to be able to do that and not overdose. I was just saying that you shouldnt let people make you feel bad about doing that bc thats only natural since were all in the habit of abusing drugs when we enter into the sub program.

I am not belittling anyone who is able to taper, the point I was trying to make was that you shouldnt be telling people thats the best way to quit subs bc that only works for a very small minority of sub users. Most sub patients who try the taper method fail miserabley and then become psyched out and think they will be on subs forever bc they couldnt follow thru with the taper method. what Im sayin is the taper method is unrealistic for most people who are on subs since we struggle with our ability to control our opiate use. In my opinion, most people would be better served by sucking it up and going cold turkey, since you are going to withdrawal anyways.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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