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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:01 am 
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I have been in suboxone treatment for about 2 years. Over the2 years i have tapered down to .5 mg a day. I have just justrecently began trying to conceive. I really want to get off completely, but am worried that it will affect my ability to work and properly deal with my 5yr old stepson.i am on such a small dose that i am wondering if the baby would even be physically affected at all (withdrawals after birth). I am going to try to get off of it anyway once i talk to my doctor, but i have a feeling he wont think its a good idea. Im also curious about what could happen to the baby because of my suboxone use during pregnancy. I have heard about some cases of SIDS when the mother had been on it while pregnant.i am really worried but sooo anxious to have my own child. Any response with any sort of info or advice would be greatly appreciated!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:04 am 
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well first I have to tell you that EVER BABY and WOMAN is different,,,,, of course.....

but there's alot of stories, positive ones, around here of plenty of healthy happy babies being born
to women on 8mg, 12mg and 24mg of suboxone daily.....
and here's the best article Ive read about suboxone and newborns, (pasted it below)

I got a couple links for you, they are older ones, maybe six months or so old,,,, you should TOTALLY click around
and read some newer ones, I know there's alot, but you may gain some useful knowledge....

here's one story you should def read,,, this thread she posted, first

http://www.suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7239

this second ( birth story)
http://www.suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7431


here's another story,
where she did NOT have a valid Rx, until AFTER the baby was born
http://www.suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7259

Okay, that's all I got for now, here's the pasted article,,,, GOOD LUCK with everything....
I know it took ME almost five years to get pregnant with My son, but I wasn't on suboxone,
I was actually on methadone at the time, and I'm telling you it didn't happen until I ABSOLUTELY gave "up"
on it EVER happening.........


Suboxone Talk Zone: A Suboxone Blog
Withdrawal in newborns: Lay off the guilt trip!!

by J T Junig on 2010/02/01


I will share some thoughts that I left at a discussion at a ‘linked in’ group about addiction. I was responding to someone who was equating addiction and physical dependence in a baby born to an opiate-addicted mother. My feeling is that such women are given way too much of an attitude by the nurses and others who care for them, and that was the motivation behind my response. Read on:

There are many differences between physiological dependence and addiction to substances. For example, people who take effexor are dependent– and will have significant discontinuation-emergent side effects– but they are not ‘addicted’, which consists of a mental obsession for a substance. The same is true of beta-blockes, in that discontinuation results in rebound hypertension, but there is no craving for propranololol when it is stopped abruptly.

We have no idea of the ‘cravings’ experienced by a newborn, but I cannot imagine a newborn having the cortical connections required to experience anything akin to the ‘cravings’ experienced by opiate addicts, which consist of memories of using and positive reinforcement of behavior—things that are NOT part of the experience ‘in utero’.
It is also important to realize that the withdrawal experienced by addicts consists of little actual ‘pain’ (I’ve been there—I know). Addicts talk about this subject often, as in ‘why do we hate withdrawal so much?’ It is not physical pain, but rather the discomfort of involuntary movements of the limbs , depression, and very severe shame and guilt. The NORMAL newborn already HAS such involuntary movements as the result of incomplete myelination of spinal nerve tracts and immature basal ganglia and cerebellar function in the brain. And the worst part of withdrawal—the shame and guilt and hopelessness—are not experienced in the same degree in a baby who has no understanding of the stigma of addiction!

Finally, if we look at the ‘misery’ experienced by a newborn, we should compare it to the misery experienced by being a newborn in general. I doubt it feels good to have one’s head squeezed so hard that it changes shape—yet nobody gets real excited about THAT discomfort—at least not from the baby’s perspective! I also doubt it feels good to have one’s head squeezed by a pair of forceps, and then be pulled by the head through the birth canal! Many hospitals still do circumcisions without local, instead just tying down the limbs and cutting. Babies having surgery for pyloric stenosis are often intubated ‘awake’, as the standard of care– which anyone who understands intubation knows is not a pleasant experience. And up until a couple decades ago—i.e. the 1980s (!), babies had surgery on the heart, including splitting open the sternum or breaking ribs, with a paralytic agent only, as the belief was that a baby with a heart defect wouldn’t tolerate narcotics or anesthetic. I don’t like making a baby experience the heightened autonomic activity that can be associated with abstinence syndrome, but compared to other elements of the birth experience, I know which I would choose!

My points are twofold, and are not intended to encourage more births of physiogically-dependent babies. But everyone in the field should be aware of the very clear difference between physiological dependence and addiction, as the difference is a basic principle that is not a matter of opinion—but rather the need to get one’s definitions right. Second, the cycle of addiction and shame has been well established, and there is already plenty of shame inside of most addicted mothers. If there are ten babies screaming loudly, only the whimper from the ‘addict baby’ elicits the ‘tsk tsk’ of the nurses and breast feeding consultants. My first child was born to a healthy mom years before my own opiate dependence, and he never took to breast feeding; he his mother been an addict, his trouble surely would have been blamed on ‘addiction’ or ‘withdrawal’. Unfortunately even medical people see what they want to see—and sometimes that view needs to be checked for bias due to undeserved stigma—for EVERYONE’S good, baby included
..
Read more at http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/withdra ... Q0FxBer.99

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its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Kmw, I admire you very much for wanting and working towards being completely drug free for pregnancy! I realize that for some women the odds of achieving drug-free status is very slim. And I understand that some of those women will not delay pregnancy until such time that they are drug free for a host of different reasons.
Personally, I just believe that anything you CAN do to lower risks for pregnancy, you should endeavor to do. You mentioned SIDS...Dr. Junig just posted an article about that so be sure to check that out. It basically sounds like there's no real good evidence to suggest a true link between SIDS and Sub.
You're down to a nice low dose...low enough that I think your risk of problems related to your Sub use should be pretty minimal. If I were you, I'd just keep 'shaving' a little more off your dose every few weeks or so and see if you can maybe make it completely off. If not, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it because of your dose being so low already.
Apparently there are some studies that suggest a higher risk of miscarriage if one goes through opiate withdrawal during pregnancy. So you'd certainly want to avoid pushing yourself through a cold turkey Sub withdrawal once you become pregnant. Also the preference is to switch to Subutex while pregnant. I think there are still some doctors out there who are so unfamiliar with bupe and they follow some guidelines from years ago that say that methadone maintenance is the only option for pregnancy. I would find a new doctor who is open to looking at more recent research, etc if you run into that. There is NO way I'd be talked into switching from bupe to methadone, especially as low as your dose is.
Hope that helps some.
Good luck to you and keep up the good work.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:51 pm 
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My opinion: I would never knowingly or purposely get pregnant while on any opiates including suboxone. I think it is selfish to do that on purpose. Wait until you are healthy and pose no risk to you child. You may get through pregnancy just fine but who knows what effects that will have on your child when they are older?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Tinydancer, I actually agree with you. I started to post almost exactly that, but decided to be a little gentler so as not to offend a lot of people. I also had to remind myself that it's not a perfect world....women have and always will get pregnant when it's not optimal. It drives me crazy because, in my opinion, there is no such thing as an unplanned pregnancy. You either plan NOT to get pregnant and take the proper precautions, or you don't. There are too many reliable methods of birth control for that to be an excuse....with a few rare exceptions.
I agree with you also that it's unfair to the baby to put him or her at risk for anything other than their best shot at life....to have no prenatal exposure to anything potentially harmful...to be born drug free...to have a drug free mother....to be born into a home with adequate finances to see that he/she has all needs met....the list goes on and on.
But again, it's not a perfect world and this is not an issue that's going to go away. At that point, it becomes a harm reduction issue. Which is why I encouraged the OP in her efforts. I feel much better when I read a post like hers than when I read one that goes something like..."I'm 25 weeks pregnant, have had no prenatal care, am getting Sub off the streets and taking 3 strips a day, I live with my boyfriends parents who are kicking us out at the end of the month, neither of us have a job, I didn't plan to get pregnant but we are so excited to have a baby, do you think CPS will take the baby.....?"
Thankfully, I had my babies long before my addiction...I wouldn't even take an Advil, labored with no drugs or epidural and all that good stuff! I guess it worked out well...they're young adults now, never gave us more than a few minutes of worry growing up, and they are educated and successful.
Anyway....not a perfect world. Addicts are generally riddled with plenty of guilt already. Some are going to get pregnant against all common sense anyway. Being on a very small dose of bupe is not too bad compared to some of the other alternatives.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:37 pm 
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I hear you barelyboxed. It definitely could be worse than the above situation and I know I could have been a little softer in my response but I feel in this scenario, coddling does not work. As a parent you need to put your needs last, your children's needs first. That is good parenting 101. If the original poster is actively trying to get pregnant right now, she is putting her own needs or "wants" above the well being of her baby. That's not ideal and should be pointed out. I will be the bad guy in this situation and point that out.

Additionally she says

"I really want to get off completely, but am worried that it will affect my ability to work and properly deal with my 5yr old stepson."

If she really wants off suboxone and is down to a low dose, she should taper and quit now BEFORE trying to get pregnant. What is a few more months? If she thinks trying to quit with a 5 year old stepson is hard.. just wait til she has an infant or toddler as well. This is the harsh truth. She sounds smart and I think she can handle it..


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:58 pm 
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You're right, Tinydancer...whether it sounds harsh or not, what you said is right in line with my feelings about the issue as well.
I just have to watch myself sometimes with coming across as judgmental or 'holier than thou' or whatever. God knows I've not exercised good judgment in my addiction and I've done plenty I'm not proud of!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:16 pm 
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I agree and hope I didn't come off that way. God knows I've made my own mistakes as well. I just have very little patience in regards to this subject so I tend to lose my ability to sympathize or be soft, I guess. Maybe because I was born to addict parents, maybe because I always wondered how clean my mom was during pregnancy, maybe because I lost my mom at such a young age and maybe because I myself am an addict. Who knows. All I know is when it comes to babies, one should be able to hear the harshest of comments because real life will only be harsher. There should never be a "I feel like having a baby so I'll detox later" situation. That frustrates me to no end and hits a little close to home I guess.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking this thread. Barelyboxed, I love your replies and always agree with what you say and how eloquently you word your replies.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:50 pm 
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I'm gonna play devils advocate here and ask a few questions.

TinyDancer said, "My opinion: I would never knowingly or purposely get pregnant while on any opiates including suboxone. I think it is selfish to do that on purpose. Wait until you are healthy and pose no risk to you child."

My wife has chronic high blood pressure, I guess you could say she isn't "healthy", should we have not conceived our beautiful daughter?

During her pregnancy, my wife ate meat that has fat in it.....very unhealthy. Should we have put off conception until she quit eating meat?

During her pregnancy, my wife was on a couple of different prescription meds.....potentially unhealthy. Should we have put off conception for that too?

Fact is, many women who are not the picture of health get pregnant every day and have perfectly normal children.

Also, from the few years I've been on this site, the vast majority of women who are on Suboxone while pregnant give birth to perfectly healthy babies. Most of those women were on much higher doses than the OP too.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:59 pm 
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100% do not get pregnant while on opiates or suboxone. People will disagree and that's fine..but God damm u have a serious problem here and kids are wonderful yes..but they have a ton of responsibility to go along with that and anyone on opiates or suboxone needs to be working on getting their shit together first. And comparing opiate addiction to some of these other diseases that require medicine is LOL. Just my 2 cents.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Hi Romeo!

No worries, I love 'devils advocate' questions. :D

High blood pressure- Of course some things can't be helped, obviously. I understand that and whether someone wants to bring a child into the world is their business (unless asking for online opinions of course.) Anyway, there is risk with HBP but there are safe medications a woman can take to keep the blood pressure lowered.

Meat/ fat- Believe it or not, it's my belief that a lot of things pregnant women are told not to eat (or do) are a little overboard these days. I think the occasional glass of wine is hardly a crime. Certain fish they tell you not to eat.. etc. I don't buy into that (but that's just me.)

Meds- I can't comment as to my opinion in regards to the meds your wife was taking because I don't know what they were but again, that's her choice as it is the OP's choice to decide what she's willing to put her baby through.


I think purposely bringing a child into this world on opiates is a crime. That's just me. Maybe because I've seen what babies in w/d are like. I'm sure many o' babies were born perfectly healthy while Mother's smoked during pregnancy. Would I ever recommend someone to do so? No..


My question is this, if someone wants to stop and is already at a low dose and good position to do so, why can't that person make the responsible decision of quitting before getting pregnant? Why isn't that encouraged?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:30 pm 
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By the way, I am fully aware that my opinion on this will not be received well, especially in this section. But there is no circumstance in which I would agree that trying to conceive while on opiates is a good idea. It's one thing to unintentionally get pregnant through carelessness or a mistake (shit happens and you make the best of it) but to actively seek to conceive while on maintenance is something that I will never get behind.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:39 pm 
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Hey Tiny, you said, "My question is this, if someone wants to stop and is already at a low dose and good position to do so, why can't that person make the responsible decision of quitting before getting pregnant? Why isn't that encouraged?"

My immediate answer would be risk of relapse. I don't know enough about the OP to know whether she would have a real shot at staying clean or not, so with what I currently know about Suboxone and very low incidence of issues at birth, I'd say the OP is fine staying on Suboxone (especially seeing as she's at .5mg). It's a risk/reward thing to me.

Also, I'm not gonna lie and you probably already know this....your first response or two in this thread seemed very aggressive and I guess it kinda put me on the aggressive to stick up for the OP IF she decided to stay on Suboxone.

When I asked those questions in my earlier reply, I wasn't really expecting answers. I was asking the question to get a point across. There are so many different levels of "healthiness", where do we draw the line. (I know where you draw the line!! LOL)

I guess my last thought for now is I don't really like how the OP, whom I'm assuming is an addict, is being talked to for potentially having a baby on Suboxone. I've read so many stories in the induction threads of people lying, cheating, stealing, beating people and a whole host of other stuff we addicts do and we all seem to be OK with that stuff, but when a woman is thinking of having a baby while on Suboxone so many people go :shock: and the condemnations begin. It's just not cool in my book.

Lastly, I respect your position, I just happen to disagree with you fairly strenuously.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Every child is a miracle


did you know only 35% of ALL fertilized eggs make it to a full term baby???

http://www.babycenter.com/0_understandi ... age_252.bc

THAT MEANS,,, most women have a least a few "miscariages" before having a baby, but they don't even know it.

Me,,,,

well I'm going to give some REAL personal details here,,,,,, my husband and I, when we got married we decided to "try" for children...
I was in pain management, I would take extra pills on the weekend.... I though nothing of it, honestly....
I was about 21
three years later, back to taking "as perscribed" and fertitlity shots to boot, NO BABY for us.
we did have two not very pleasent mis carriages though......

then, was the wonderful appointment, that the doctor told us, we'd "have a hard time ever concieving"

that felt awesome to hear, at 24.....
when most of my friends had already had a kid, or two....

I couldn't even go to baby showers anymore....

so, then I went off the DEEPEND in the opiate world, and two years on methadone,,
I started puking one day and couldn't stop......

I was PREGNANT....(27 years old, so six years, no BC of any kind, and even fertility shots)
the next week, after I found out, my best friend told me that she was having an abortion,
she was already raising two kids on her own, and it just broke my heart, she wasn't going to tell me,
but decided to , since I was "having my own baby, FINALLY"
I tapered off (methadone)and took percocets, as per my doctor's instructions... some how managed to stop the percs completely, three days before the c section.
and we had our son.
he was six weeks premature, and only six pounds when we left the hospital.
(he's very healthy now though)

right outta the hospital, back on the opiates, progresively worse and worse.
parenthood was great, but my son only slept two hours at a time the first SIX MONTHS of his life, and didn't sleep thru the night until he was 14 months old.
sleep deprivation???
i could write a book!!

I wouldn't change any of it, I don't think.

and know what??
I will NOT take birth contol..... Nope.
yep I take suboxone, but Im doing the BEST I can, and I would LOVE to have another child.

but I don't know if it's in the cards for me.

that's okay either way, I'm happy that I got to experience the miracle of my son, and continue too.

oh and let me also add,,
My suboxone dr. used to be an OBGYN, and he has "overseen" at least ten of his suboxone patients, give birth in
just the last three years, he's said they had "minimal issues"
he also said, the ONES that DID have issues, he believes were doing "other things" besides suboxone.

So, this isn't "against" one person's opinion or anything else, this is just MY POINT OF VIEW......

there's so many things, so many "unknowns"
especially with pregnancy,,,,,


I don't plan on stopping suboxone anytime soon, my suboxone dr. knows Im not on any BC
and he doesn't have a problem with it.
If I did get pregnant, I'd probably try to lower my dose even more,
but I'd definitely be willing to "risk" WHATEVER,
becuase of what I've ALREADY been through.
and In my opinion, the "responsible decision" for ME, would be to stay on suboxone.

I get where the other opinions are coming from, I just felt compelled to share Mine, too.

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anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:01 am 
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Tinydancer, i can definitely appreciate your view on the matter and i agree.
Barelyboxed- thank you for your info and advice. AND trying to put it nicely regardless of your actual view.
Romeo- thank you for your kindness. I definitely needed it with these two! Lol
Amber-thank you very much for the info.
I didnt join this forum to debate so i will just say thank you to everyone for responding. Please continue as you feel necessary.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:38 am 
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kmw27483 wrote:
Tinydancer, i can definitely appreciate your view on the matter and i agree.
Barelyboxed- thank you for your info and advice. AND trying to put it nicely regardless of your actual view.
Romeo- thank you for your kindness. I definitely needed it with these two! Lol
Amber-thank you very much for the info.
I didnt join this forum to debate so i will just say thank you to everyone for responding. Please continue as you feel necessary.



your not doing ANYTHING wrong, and whether or NOT you decide to taper further,,,,
I'd say as long as you are honest with your doctors, there's no reason to change the "plan"

I wish you the
VERY BEST OF LUCK
and like I said, before, when I absolutely GAVE UP ALL HOPE of getting pregnant, THATS WHEN IT HAPPENED!!!

so maybe if you try to forget about it, it'll happen!!!

might not make much sense, but I hope it does happen sometime, whenever YOU are ready (or not!)
seriously,,,

good luck
and In my opinion, your on the RIGHT TRACK for both you and your potential child

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Here's why I'm aggressive in regards to this specific situation.


We sit around all day complaining, sympathizing and stressing about the sheer misery of withdrawal and the after math that follows for what feels like forever. We (capable, strong, understanding adults) all go to great lengths to avoid withdrawal and fear the inevitable PAWS. We come up with tapering plans that only scientists would understand just to avoid the terrible feeling of wanting to crawl out of your own flesh and not being able to sleep for days.

The fact that any of you can tell me you'd purposely put your baby in a situation where they'd have a high risk of being born into this very situation is beyond me. To have your child's very first experience in the world going through withdrawals and uncomfortable in their own skin is not something to be taken lightly. The fact that we'd do anything to avoid it ourselves should mean we'd take even GREATER lengths to shield our children from it. Otherwise, it's hypocritical to say the least.

My opinion on this is strong obviously but I make no apologies.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Hi kmw and welcome,
Congratulations on your recovery and getting down to 0.5mg Sub, that is a huge accomplishment. I truly hope you had a chance to read Dr. J's latest blog post on SuboxoneTalkZone.com. It addresses many of the issues that have been brought up here, but in a kind and gentle way. You sound like a caring and responsible person. Trust yourself (with your doctors' advice) to make the best decisions for your baby. And when you do become pregnant you will get a lot of "in your face" advice. So just think of this as a bit of a warm up :). But seriously, I hope you will stay on the forum. I promise, there will be a lot of supportive people here, no matter what you decide.
Here is a small except from Dr. J's post:

"My take on the data is that the safest situation for any infant is to develop in the womb of a woman who is not drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, taking prescription medications, or using illicit opioids.  Out of all of these things, being compliant with a stable dose of buprenorphine or Suboxone likely carries the least amount of risk.  If there was certainty that pregnant women could remain free from opioids after stopping buprenorphine maintenance, then stopping buprenorphine during pregnancy would be a good idea.
But unfortunately, far more women PLAN to remain opioid-free after Suboxone, than actually remain opioid-free.  The intermittent use of opiods......and other risky behaviors that come with opioid dependence create the worst-case-scenario, making the stable use of Suboxone or buprenorphine far safer in comparison to ‘planned abstinence.’"

Read more at http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/does-su ... qKirTDs.99


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Thank you lillyval, very much appreciated. Today i only took .25mg and plan to continue on that dose for a little while . I plan on trying to get off completely before the pregnancy happens. If i am already pregnant, i plan to be off of it in the first few weeks. Amber thank you kindly for your support and i will continue to read up on the info you provided. To everyone, the reason im so anxious to get off is because i know for a fact that relapse is not an issue. I have been on nothing but suboxone for over 2 years and have never had the urge or craving. It just disgusts me to think about actually. I have just been avoiding the wd which dont even come close to the wd from heroin. Im afraid no longer. Thank you all


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