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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:42 pm 
Wow,
If I was you, Payton, I would go check into a hotel for the next few days and take it easy!! Hubby is a big boy, and the kids will be fine with him. But, if that's not an option, I think the clonidine could really help. Or really, you just have to tough it out. Which you have done, admirably!! And I really think the worst is over. Try to keep your mind positive. I'm always checking this thread to see your updates. G'luck!
JD


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Payton, after I posted, I noticed that I neglected to talk about the fact of why it is thought that Clonidine works for withdrawal. Without going into the whole sympathetic - parasympathetic response junk, your blood pressure and pulse rate tend to rise/increase when you go into withdrawal. That is partially why clonodine works. The whole point is, even if your blood pressure is low (kids and stress aside) it very often rises when you experience withdrawal. That fact alone will help increase the margin of safety for you. See how 0.1 mg works for you. You may very well need a bit more than that. Just remember that you can't "feel" or "sense" very well if at all what your blood pressure is doing. That's why they used to call it the silent killer. I would be very hesitant to go over 0.3 at a time until you have some experience using this medication. At the stage of withdrawal you are likely in, you should feel at least some effect with 0.1 or for sure 0.2.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:44 pm 
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Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:23 am 
Just a quick chime-in to say - Payton, you are awesome! hanging in there like a champ! Keep posting!
And everyone who has posted on this thread - it's great - I think it's going to be a thread that will be read over and over again for a long time by people who are contemplating going off Suboxone or who have already made the decision and are struggling with withdrawals. To me, the most beautiful thing about it is that no one is going off on a Sub-bash or a blame game kind of thing. Everyone's just talking about their personal experiences and how they get through some tough times.
I think it's great!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:50 am 
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I agree that you really are doing great. Much braver and stronger than me...

I hope you got by last night with the Clonodine and without the klonopin. But if you needed the Klon too... that is no problem at this point. As they say in AA... one day at a time

It sounds like you have a gem of a husband... I'm sure you already know he is deserving of an extra special christmas.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:13 am 
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Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Over the hump
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:56 pm 
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It's getting clearer and clearer that you are indeed well over the hump or the mid-way point with all of this. That is so awesome! I didn't mean to scare you with that "silent killer" comment. They call blood pressure that due to people that have HIGH blood pressure and have no way of knowing it - unless it is tested. That's where that came from. Low blood pressure is not where the silent killer came from. Sorry. It sounds like you made it through fine though. I wanted to tell you that the clonidine is not only for night time use. That can be taken around the clock every four to six hours as needed. If 0.1mg works for you, taking that as needed, just not more than every four hours, will be well within the typical dose. I'm not saying you need to take it around the clock - just that you do not have to wait until nighttime. If you are having symptoms in the morning or afternoon, you will benefit as well. If you are still concerned, see if you can get your blood pressure taken some place.

Please keep letting us know how you are doing. I'm sure it is an inspiration to all sorts of readers!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:11 pm 
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Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:21 pm 
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Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:52 pm 
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Payton - When I was going through Sub withdrawal I found that drinking Kombucha tea really helped with the stomach/intestinal issues and generally made me feel better. It tastes kinda funky but well worth it. You can get it in health food stores. I like the grape or the ginger flavors. It's full of probiotics and vitamin b and is supposedly good for the liver as well.

The sneezing lasted for quite a bit longer than I thought it would. It was annoying.

Make sure you are drinking enough water and replacing your electrolytes too. Getting dehydrated will effect your blood pressure and also generally make you feel like ass. Your body is detoxing so you need extra fluids.

Pretty much everything you've said has just been a way more intense version of what I went through. Your sleep will normalize eventually. I felt like the clonidine made me too tired and dumb feeling so I switched to ambien. That first night of solid sleep after taking an ambien really helped a lot.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:32 pm 
del


Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Generally Speaking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:17 am 
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Let's see if I can try to shed a little light onto your vital signs for you. Again, I'm speaking just in general terms since I would just be guessing when it comes to your exact condition or situation. In any event, the pharmacist is correct - that is a very fast heart rate. In fact we are talking nearly double the rate it should be. Now a fast heart rate could be due to a lot of things. It could very well be due to you still being in withdrawals, and in fact, if that is the cause, you are still very significantly in withdrawal. It could also very well be dehydration. It very well could be a combination of the two. The next step would actually be to get your B/P taken standing up and then one lying down and compare the two. This would be to check for orthostatic hypertension. It would help us point to see if dehydration is the cause or not. In any event, all of this is a pretty good indicator that the clonidine might actually work very well for you still at this stage of things. 100/53 is not all that terrible - given that you usually run low to begin with. Now if you typically ran at about 160/90, that would be a big deal, but if you are usually 112/76, where you are at now is not surprising. Without going into too much, the first response of your body for dehydration or shock is to increase the heart rate. That is a response to your parasympathetic system or "fight or flight" process. It's a normal response of your body. The clonidine will actually work on slowing that pulse rate down which will then in turn also bring down your pressure. Typically you would not want to medicate much below 90 for the top number and certainly no lower than 80. If you are at 100, however, that's a pretty good sign that 0.1 or 0.2 will get you feeling better. You may want to just give 0.2 a try. Just do it when you have a couple hours to spare and can lie down if needed. It is not going to harm you. You may also be surprised at how well it actually does work for you. I was given 0.3 in detox for a pulse rate of 110 and blood pressure of 102/60. Again, in the short term this is not going to kill you, but walking around in the 120s certainly points to stress on your body. Actually, it's not good to have a resting pulse above 100. I really do think that you are still on the backside of this, but there is no reason to feel worse off than you have to - especially if you have some medication to make you feel better. Obviously it's all your call and I again can only generalize. I hope that my comments have again helped at least a little bit.

I also really do want to say, for all other readers, that having to go through all of this really is optional. The longer and slower the taper, the less of all of these symptoms that you have to go through. Payton is doing what is best for her and what she wants. That doesn't mean that everyone will feel these same symptoms and same intensity if they taper from Suboxone. It is coming off of such a high dose (8 milligrams) that brings these symptoms out. And for that I'm amazed you are able to hang in there. You are doing better than I would be - that's for sure.

Just keep piling up the days and we'll be here to cheer you on. Each day brings you one more day closer to your goal. Hang in there and keep us informed!


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 Post subject: Sneezing
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:20 am 
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Don't have anything else to add other than sneezing caught my attention. It must be a suboxone thing. Perhaps due to the way we take it... under the tongue. I know sneezing isn't a big problem with withdrawls but can be irritating... especially in public places. I found the following at Wiko:

Sublingual, literally 'under the tongue', from Latin, refers to the pharmacological route of administration by which drugs diffuse into the blood through tissues under the tongue. Many pharmaceuticals are designed for sublingual administration, including cardiovascular drugs, steroids, barbiturates, enzymes, and increasingly, vitamins and minerals. When a chemical comes in contact with the mucous membrane beneath the tongue, or buccal mucosa, it diffuses through it. Because the connective tissue beneath the epithelium contains a profusion of capillaries, the substance then diffuses into them and enters the venous circulation. In contrast, substances absorbed in the intestines are subject to "first pass metabolism" in the liver before entering the general circulation.

The function of sneezing is to expel mucus containing foreign particles or irritants and cleanse the nasal cavity. During a sneeze, the soft palate and uvula depress while the back of the tongue elevates to partially close the passage to the mouth so that air ejected from the lungs may be expelled through the nose. Because the closing of the mouth is partial, a considerable amount of this air is usually also expelled from the mouth. The force and extent of the expulsion of the air through the nose varies. Examples of preventative techniques are: the deep exhalation of the air in the lungs that would otherwise be used in the act of sneezing, holding the breath in while counting to ten, and crinkling the nose. Clinical evidence suggests the sneeze reflex is inhibited by applying strong pressure immediately below the nose, using the index finger.[citation needed]

Proven methods to reduce sneezing generally advocate reducing interaction with irritants, such as keeping pets out of the house to avoid animal dander; ensuring the timely and continuous removal of dirt and dust particles through proper housekeeping; replacing filters for furnaces and air-handling units; employing air filtration devices and humidifiers; and staying away from industrial and agricultural zones.[


I've been sneezing at least a few times a day for the last several weeks with my taper. I've found the old remedies still work... Pinch nose and swallow along with taking a drink of water.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:55 pm 
del


Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:50 pm 
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Payton I am glad you are doing 'well'. You have come a long way!!

I too think the skin crawling and GI issues are the worst symptoms, followed by insomnia and leg kicking for the close second as far as withdrawal symptoms. Fatigue (intensified from lack of sleep of course) is usually pretty bad too. With all that being said, I think the sneezing is the least bothersome of my symptoms as well (when I was/would be w/d). I know every single time I started to w/d, the very first signs after chills/sweats was sneezing, and it always persisted until the very end and lingered. I never really sneeze that often normally, but I am talking about 10 or more sneezes at a time several times through out the day when withdrawaling. But it really didnt bother me (the sneezes), just allowed me to gauge where I was at with detox. Thank goodness (suboxone) that I haven't dealt with that for a while now.

I don't know too much about clonidine not being a doctor or anything, but I know it worked great for me. You do what you gotta do to make it through (klonopin, nyquill, etc.....go for it! been there, done that with valium, xanax, nyquill, tylenol pm, immodium and so on 'back in the day'), but keeping your mind and yourself busy seems to help the most for some.

Hang tough and with ours and most importantly your family's support you will be in the clear in no time!!

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Hang in there Payton those that I've talked to who've gone through the process of withdrawing from Suboxone by tapering down pretty low have gotten through without too much pain. I would think it would be quite a bit less severe than Oxy withdrawal given how slowly Suboxone clears out of one's system. Keep us updated :)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:08 pm 
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Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:09 am 
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Last edited by Payton on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:59 pm 
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I took a look back to the very first post you made to find:

"The reason I took myself off is because I was having major depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation since starting the suboxone. Not saying it made me that way but something wasn't jiving with the chemical make up in my brain."

I wanted to see how these things were going since you have stopped the Suboxone. Has it made a difference? Have these thoughts, depression, anxiety, etc., subsided or ceased? It would seem odd that Suboxone was triggering this but it certainly could have been. I just wanted to find out where you were at with these symptoms since that seemed to be the reason for jumping off at such a high dose in the first place. Please let us know.

You also made a comment about withdrawal from benzodiazepines. Let me tell you that this is a very serious matter. While you know very well and first hand what it's like to come off of opiates, detoxing from benzos or alcohol is an entirely more dangerous matter. In fact, you can die from the seizures that can occur when you cold turkey either alcohol or benzos. It is not at all something to fool around with. Now, having used them for such a short time like you have, you have nothing to worry about. It is just the prolonged use that can cause not only miserly but life threatening danger. It is actually one of the reasons that I too never let myself start using them. It's one thing to run out of your DOC and be miserable. It's a whole other to run out and die.

The other thing I wanted to say is, it would be way, way too easy to become dependant on any sleep aid at this point. You really do need to balance your need to sleep and the danger of getting hooked on something else. Unfortunately sleep, as you already have found, seems to be one of the longest issues to pass when stopping opiates. I would personally forgo the benzos as much as you can, in favor of the clonidine, cold meds, benedryl, etc. as needed. You don't want to end up clear of the Suboxone only to be tied to some other chemical in order to sleep each night. That doesn't mean you should NEVER use something to help. Just try not to make it an every night thing.

As an aside, all of this talk about Suboxone dose, dropping your dose, etc. got me to take a look at my own situation. I have been on 16 mg since starting October 23. While it's now only been about 48 hours, I have started to take 4mg at a time rather than the full 8. So far it has not seemed to make any difference in how I feel at all. What it did do, however, is last night I could feel jittery and edgy and ended up having to take another 4 mg at midnight. That is not typical for me but I still was able to stick to 8 mg the first day and 12 the second without really any noticeable changes. I really don’t care much about the number of milligrams but the number of dollars left in my wallet I fully care about. So if I can actually get down to 8 mg a day, like so many others seem to have, we are talking several hundred dollars in savings each month. I'll certainly take that. In the short time so far, I can't feel any difference in how I feel about an hour after 4 mg versus 8. In other words, the two doses seem the same to me. Even my jitters were well alleviated about an hour after I took 4 mg last night. And I was able to wait a full 12 hours since that dose before taking my next one. It would seem that I am finding what so many others have found - that there is little to no difference and very little to no difficulty in dropping lower than 16 mg/ day. I hope to see how 8 mgs works for a while and then perhaps try four. Won't my doctor be surprised when I see him next month! And, had it not been for this forum, I'm sure I'd not have found out about this and likely not have tried it. Thanks for the help - and potentially extra $$$


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