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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:08 am 
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Tiki,

You're absolutely correct, it's against the law for a doctor (in the state of MI anyway) to refuse 30 days of medication upon a ptient's release or discharge. Reason being, It could be a life or death situation. I spoke with those in the know and was given that info which you spoke about. Thank you!

I typed a letter informing the doctor I wanted all my medical records and took it to them yesterday in person. The low life doctor wouldn't see me so I spoke with one of his nurses which I have known for years as their patient and explained the situation. I had her open the letter in my presence and she promised to have all my medical records available for pickup in the next few days. I had her make me a copy of the letter.

I informed her about the law requiring doctors to provide their patients with 30 days of medication upon release. I kindly asked her to please have a script ready at the time I pick up my records for the Norvasc I take for high blood pressure, and my Suboxone. The nurse informed me they would provide me with the Norvasc, but definitely NOT the Suboxone....

She told me they WERE NOT under any LEGAL OBLIGATION to give a script for the Suboxone because it was an OPIATE!!! In other words she replied, it was a NARCOTIC and the doctor WOULD NOT be giving me that script!!! WTF?

Tiki, or anyone - Is this correct? Can they refuse because of that stipulation? Can they refuse if it's an opiate, partial or full agonist? Any info would be appreciated. I'll be checking also today.

I replied it was a partial-agonist and not a full-agonist like say Vicodin was for example. Didn't matter she replied, an opiate is an opiate!!! I was BOILING MAD right about then. I informed her again about the law and she repeated herself. She promised to have my records available tomorrow (Thurs.) along with a 30-day script for the Norvasc only. NO SUBOXONE!!! I left extremely discouraged and PISSED beyond words..

I've been calling sub doctors as many times as possible from home and work with no luck so far. I've been placed on many lists with promises of openings soon. Yeah, right? I'll drive 2 hours if I have to and I'm calling around in areas that distance away from my home and work. If I buy from the street I know I'll take more than I should and be right back where I began abusing sub.

This is HORRIBLE!!! I'm so depressed, visably shaken, and very, very MAD about all this. It's taking a toll on me right now. I only have a few subs left. My friend gave me an 8mg sub film and like an IDIOT I took the ENTIRE thing!!! GRRRRRR. That was so STUPID!!! Should have lasted me at least 2 days, possibly 3 days.

Thank you ALL for your comments. It's the only thing keeping me sane right now. I'm going to find some info about whether the Suboxone is excluded or not in the 30-day requirement, but to be honest it does make some sense.

Tiki - You certainly didn't Hi-Jack "my" thread. It belongs to "ALL" of us in my eyes!

Sub Addict - wound up


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:02 am 
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Let me say bro this makes me so fn mad I could scream for you for real ...The only thing I can say is keep telling yourself you got this brother just keep on plugging away keep on that phone and educate yourself as much as possible which it seems you have done an excellent job of so far ...Hopefully donh will chime in again as he seems to know his stuff on this type of issue ..Just know I am pulling for you and again DONT GIVE UP and definitely try your best when talking to this grrrrr medical staff to remain professional as hard as that is to do at times but you definitely want to be able to say you haven't lost it verbally to them if this does go any farther legally...keep us updated


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:30 am 
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Folks, i hate to say this, but a Dr can do whatever he sees fit in hix own practice. These laws your talking about may help someone somewhere but a Sub dr can and does cut addicts off. Ive seen it in my own clinic here. Its unfair and dangerous but its done.
Our medicine is the most regulated in the country. This holds alota weight with Drs. It is up to each Dr on how he runs his show.
SubAddict, im praying for you to hang on, you can make it. You havnt totally run out yet. Today, trim back that dose man.
If and when you get something off the street, Hand it over to your friend. Fast!
This stuff happens, it sucks.
I believe if you keep calling someone is going to say yes. Get your records and deal with this other guy after you have stablized..
Hang in there, it ll be ok..

Razor...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:43 pm 
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Unfortunately I have saw this at my clinic also. I have saw ppl fail a test for something like nurotin (I know I didn't spell that right) and get kicked out with no extra sub to hold em til they get another Dr. Then I have saw ppl fail a test for oxy and be given a second chance. So it is very very unfair but like razor said, the Dr can do what he wants and that's just not right. I've also saw ppl behind in their payment and get kicked out and another who's so far behind she couldn't even begin to count how far behind she is stay with no issues. Sub, since u are willing to drive longer distances, call around all the cities u would be willing to drive to. And if u get some off the street then hand em straight to ur friend...that's a great idea. I know this sucks bad but I have this feeling that something is going to pop up for u and u will be Ok. Please keepus updated :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Hey SA,

OMG I'm so so sorry that happened. I don't blame you for being absolutely furious. That's just crazy. Interesting to know docs can do what they want. I thought they had a mandatory time period they had to give patients, it may vary somewhat from state to state. WOW! I'm so so sorry that happened. That really makes me angry on your behalf, especially with no previous strikes and five years with the same doc.

I had been going to the same practice for the bulk of the years I've been on Sub and I've noticed in that time, the rules are getting stricter and stricter and stricter, doesn't matter if people have been compliant to this point, new rules keep being added. As the years have passed, it went from easy to finding a Sub doc here, to nobody accepting new patients around here when I was trying to help a friend get into a program to I just read an article- for many it's now a three year wait in the state I'm in because it's mostly country, many people don't have cars or transportation to drive far away, there are a very limited number of doctors who do prescribe Sub, they are at their limit and most are not adding names to wait lists they so long. I think it's had an effect on the Methadone clinics as well creating months and months of waiting they are so backlogged with people who can't get into a Sub program, many people just give up. Because of the number of people trying to get into Sub programs, most doctors are taking a no bs cut-throat approach (I'm not at all saying what you did re your doctor was bs, I believe you being honest was the right thing and it's terribly unfortunate he reacted the way he did). No strikes anymore because the waits are so long. I knew it was long but didn't know it was three years here. And it will probably get worse before better.

SA- my suggestions to you- create your game plans now- if you can't find a doctor and you run out what are you going to do? Worse case, you go to the ER right? I don't have experience trying this but I would friggin hope they would at least give you a script to hold you over. I don't know whether to say be honest or not since doing that put you in this situation to begin with, but if they find out you're lying, then you might be SOL there too. And if you are honest, bring your medical records to show them. I think people in the ER greatly appreciate hearing the truth and they'll test you to make sure you have it (and the right level of what you say your at) in your system. They'll probably do that anyway. And they may have contacts that can help you get into a different program too, especially if you bring them proof you were with this doc for five years.

And in the meantime, make it your mission to find a new doc and don't stop calling. Keep track of who says no and who says maybe. The maybes and "we'll put you on a wait list" offices, keep calling them back- every weekday- that's what they are looking for- people who really want help that call persistently. They are trying to weed out the people just looking to get Sub to hold themselves over til they can get high again and calling persistently does weed out most who aren't serious.

I hope this helps. Again, I'm so very sorry to hear that happened. Keep us posted.

Sage
xoxo


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:20 pm 
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sub addict- I understand where you're coming from. I'm 42, and spent 15 years addicted to opates, and benzos. First went to rehab in 2009, maintained sobriety for 88 days, then relapsed. I spent the next 6 years addicted, in and out of rehabs, until I was homeless. Friend of mine told me about suboxone. Been on for the past year, but spent the first 3 months thinking I could get "higher" if I took more, then I read about the ceiling affect, and realized this lined up with my personal experience with subs. For the past few months, I take a half (4mgs) in the morning, and it lasts all day. I live in a garage apartment, am working on getting back together with my ex-wife, and 4 kids, have a full time job, and my life is good. I tried anti-depressants, and other therapies, and for ME, I think my brain chemistry is wacked out, but being on 4mgs of sub daily, I feel like a normal person. Not high, just able to function normally, no haziness, I feel all my emotions, and I trust that the suboxone has helped me achieve this lifestyle.

Addiction is so complicated, but I had to break old habits, and rituals. Personal therapy for the past year also with a counselor has been key to my new found peace (and I also read my bible and go to church, because it works for ME). I can only suggest talking to a therapist/counselor, and trust that the medication at this dose works for me. I do believe everyone's dosage is unique, but I've read too many positive stories about recovery with suboxone that are success based, so I believe it works. Hope this encourages you a little. Find what works for you, and stick with it. I go to meetings sometimes as well, and take the good (what I need), try to contribute if I can, and leave all the other bs behind.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:22 pm 
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This would really be a great topic to hear from dr. J on. It's just so complicated with even the "good" docs under fire from all sides - including the DEA. No other doctor other than a sub doc has to sign up for nearly certain visits from Federal law enforcement - just to treat patients! That's how crazy this is. So I don't want to come down against docs. Several very good friends are docs. But this type of crap has to be challNged or it will never change.

Tiki what law are you referring to? Is this federal or a specific state? I've never heard of such a thing. Most regulations for docs don't come from laws. They are based in medical standards. Then there are things like COBRA. I've just never heard any law compelling a doc to provide a script. As for controlled substances, it doesn't matter what the chemical is. What matters is the schedule. Sub us a schedule III controlled substance, plain and simple. I've never heard anything that compels it be dispensed. What may come into play is no comfort meds, no referals and the overall manner that all if this took place and how it relates to standards of practice.

Keep at it. I'm sure you'll find someone to refill your sub.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:07 pm 
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Donh

The law is called Patient Abandonment. If this was the only incident & there were no other warnings then the doctor is responsible for the patient for 30 days.

I am sure things can be twisted by the doctor but he should be told to google Patient Abandonment.

Short on time tonight...will check in the morning...hoping for good news.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:01 am 
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Only have a minute right now but wanted to thank EVERYONE for their comments. Can't tell you guys how much it's appreciated.

No sub doctor found as of yet, but I won't give up trying. I'm calling everywhere using all resources available to me.

Good news is that yesterday I "only" took 4mgs of suboxone!!! That's it's was a HUGE victory for me. Not that much left and it's getting scary. Problem is there are "pills" everywhere!!!

I'll be picking my medical records up today from that doctor and they have acknowledged it will include an agreement to rescind my previous agreement to share my records with anyone. I'll have all the paperwork I need from this former doctor and can end my involvement with them. For now anyway.

Thanks again guys. Yes, it sure would be nice to hear from Dr. Junig. Any additional commetns are certainly welcome! Be back later.

Sub Addict - hopeful


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:23 am 
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No sub doctor found yet that's taking new patients. I'm beginning to worry about that. Really thought I would have some success before now.

Good news is I picked up my medical records yesterday and a letter that my records would not be released to anyone was included and my prior release was rescinded.

I was able to take 4mgs total yesterday as well. I'm feeling ok, but running out of sub fast and hoping a doctor can be found soon.

All for now. Thanks for reading.

Sub Addict - plugging along


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Update my journal for knowledge and understanding.

Still no sub doctor found despite my very best efforts.
That's bad enough, BUT....
Worse, the friend that hangs onto and dispenses my subs has left for a mid-winter get away.
He gave me all the subs I had left. Not many...
And like the IDIOT I am I took them ALL!!!!!!
I'm beyond STUPID!!!
I KNEW better than doing that!!! :oops:
I'm in real TROUBLE and I know it.
Went out this morning in hopes of finding some.
LOTS of other stuff available, but no subs.
I'm so scared I'll give in and give everything up I've worked for.
This disease is so wicked and the mental battle is HORRIBLE!!!!!
Don't know what to do or where to turn?
Hoping for support.
Thank you.

Sub Addict - problem child


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:25 pm 
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Hello Sub Addict,
This is all bad news. Im very sorry your in this spot. I, sorry you do not have face to face support . Ypu could use that now. The next few days will be the start of a ruff and dangerous time for you. We opiate addicts do not handle pain very well. I am indeed concerned for ypu safety and heath.
So what can we do but hold out hope that something good will happen. You have done the calling. As much leg work as you can. Keep calling everyday, everywhere. Its the only way.
And maybe you have read that going to the ER can help. Maybe they will, but most drs there wont give out sub. ,ost dont understand. Not trying to be a downer here. I know er docs. Two are friends.
SubAddict, your not stupid or and idiot, your a opiate /sub addict man. This is why you took all of your Sub..
Man, i wish i had better things to say to you. I wanted to answer you. Its been a few days. The important thing is to keep trying. And yes, the mental PART SUCKS! !! It ll be a few days before hard wd simptoms occur, so hang in there!


Razor


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:41 pm 
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Hey Sub :)

Well u know what ya did and being an addict truly sucks and no ur not stupid. This is why ur on suboxone in the first place. The best thing to do is not dwell on what u did wrong and search for a solution. Right now the only immediate answer is to find u some more subs before withdrawal starts. That will still be a couple days or so. Do u think u can find any on the street by then? I know u said no luck yet but do u think tomorrow will be any better? So u have none left, is that right? Gosh I wish I had some magic answer to make u feel better cause I know ur scared right now. I also know what it feels like when u blame urself for being so scared. But u are an addict, this is what can unfortunately happen if we're struggling. Ok just don't panic, tomorrow is Monday, u may get a call from a clinic tomorrow. U may find 20 on the street to help u til u do get an apt. So let's stay positive, lots of things happen when u least expect it to. This kind of consequence may be what u needed to help u stop taking extra when u do find ur doctor. Everything happens for a reason. Until then, stay calm and keep looking.

Please let us know how ya do :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:12 am 
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Thank you Razor and Jennjenn for your understanding and support. I hope you both realize just how much it helps. Bless you both, and EVERYONE else here too that's responded!

I haven't forgotten the suggestions about trying the ER in hopes of getting a few subs. I went there yesterday and was turned flat down. The ER doctor that saw me explained they NEVER hand out Suboxone to anyone. They knew me as a former "client" and frequent-visit addict.

I explained I had not used any addictive drug for nearly 5 YEARS, only the Suboxone in hopes of getting my life in order. Sorry was the answer. I'd have to return to my sub doctor to get subs, or find another one. Yeah, good luck with that one I replied.

And they told me NOT to try another ER either. They're all connected these days. I might try anyway if I get desperate enough at some point. Chasing again. YUCKKKK!

They did provide me with a list of potential sub doctors, and a few of them I hadn't called yet. So today I'll spend as much time as I can on the phone.

I know the long half life should make what I took hold me for a couple days at least, but my brain keeps telling me I need to take more subs right away. I realize that's false and fighting through it as best I can.

I know one thing for certain. IF and when I do find some subs I'll basically re-induct taking small doses until real stable. Maybe I can keep my dose low. Just as you said Jennjenn, it might be what I need right now to keep me from taking extra again. Good call.

Sub Addict


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:35 am 
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Well that sucks sorry they wouldn't help u out...I really don't understand why these ER docs are still turning people away ..It just doesn't make sense..Can they get in trouble by doing it? I didn't think so ..But seems I have read more and more situations where the ER just flat wont help people who literally have no where else to turn ...I know its hella hard but stay positive keep your head up and I have a good feeling one of those docs you haven't called is gonna get u in ...Is there any clinics like the ones you go to every day ? I don't know if they do suboxone like methadone clinics but I know of 2 or 3 where I'm at that offer both so maybe a last resort ? Lol I know my advice sucks but just tryna think of anything that might work ...Hang in there keep us updated


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:04 am 
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Suboxone has a ceiling effect, so after you take 16mg or so, you aren't actually getting higher, so you are essentially wasting your strips.
Personally, you shouldn't be on subs if you are living this lifestyle and having this thinking pattern. You should just get back on hard drugs, really. Because if you continue down this path with subs, you will never have a drug that could help you get off of them. If you're going to be an addict, why wouldn't you be an addict to a drug that gives more effects? Im not saying you should, but taking subs in this way is just as bad, if not worse.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:31 am 
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Visa , wtf are u serious with that advice?? He should just go back to abusing drugs ?? In my opinion and I'm damn sure many others here you should keep comments like that to yourself genius ..Honestly if I didn't care if I got kicked off here I would really tell u what I think bro .Im glad you weren't the first one here to give me advice


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Alwaysthesame,

Your advice doesn't suck one bit. I'm just glad someone cares enough to post! I honestly believe the ER's should be much more understanding. They knew me the minute I walked in. Embarrassing. After all, I've been there so many times with "fake" illnesses and injury's to get some pills that they no longer even consider me human I think. I tried to explain that I hadn't been in any ER in nearly 5 years, explained that I was trying to better my life and Suboxone had saved me. They still could have cared less. Just another addict seeking drugs was their body language and attitude. I'm there for HONEST HELP and was turned away. Really hard to figure.

Theres plenty of clinics in my area, but I don't know any that give Suboxone, only Methadone. I will NEVER go back to that. I made the switch from it to Suboxone because I was abusing the Methadone and it made me into some kind of monster. I'm NOT bashing Methadone because i understand how it can help some, it just wasn't right for me is all. I'll continue searching for a clinic that has Suboxone too.

Really good advice, Always, I really appreciate your comments, including those to VisaBlack. What kind of response was that they made?????? RIDICULOUS!!!


VisaBlack - Are you for real? You suggest I go back on hard drugs again???? Who are YOU to judge MY life? You know nothing about me. Have you read the entire thread? I doubt it. I know all about the ceiling effect. I posted about it long enough here. I've been on subs almost 5 years!!! I began abusing them not so long ago. I'm doing my VERY BEST to do the right thing. Read the thread before making ABSURD comments.

DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD I'M FIGHTING RIGHT NOW?????

Sub Addict - Miffed a bit.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Hey SubAddict. ..
Not sure what Visa intent was there. Hmmm.

Im going to say this here that in my 4 years ive never heard of the ER drs helping with this. There choise.
Time to stop directing people there, dosent seem to ever work out. The stigma of addiction is alive andcwell in this country. We are all we got!!
Witch is great. I dont have anymore i can say SubAddict to help ya, just keep calling. Idk.
Oh, maybe call thoses Done clinics and see if they do indeed use sub today. Could be.
Keep posting man..raz


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:38 pm 
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When someone has been on subs for 5 yrs and knows about the ceiling level and is aware of this and still has issues with taking more, its obvious they are struggling. Sub addict admits this is a problem and trying to get ahold on this and needs some encouragement in this area. I'm not here to judge anyone, I just want everyone on this medication to succeed. Everyone has struggles and just needs some positive words. Nobody is better than anyone else here. Sometimes u gotta just leave the negative comments to the side and only listen to the positive.

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